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.40-65 Winchester BPCR?
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Anybody got a can of NAPA Know How on this one?
Tips, anecdotes, or gratuitous trivia, good or bad?
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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RIP: It's a very forgiving and competitive midrange target and silhouette cartridge. A lot of guys will tell you its lighter bullets don't buck wind way out there where the .45-90s and bigger come into play. That said, a guy running a .40-65 won our buffalo gong match last month and the targets go to 1200 yards.


There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t.
– John Green, author
 
Posts: 14439 | Location: Alamogordo, NM | Registered: 03 June 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Wasn't the 40-65 WCF the darling of BPCR Silohuette shooters for a good long while and maybe still is? I believe part of the reason was because it is simple to make by merely resizing the 45-70. Maybe that isn't necessary these days as brass may be available. I've not been active in the game for a few years.

I have no personal experience with it but do have considerable with it's slightly longer brother 40, the 40-2.5 Sharps Straight and an 1886 Winchester in 40-82. I am impressed with the 40's.


DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE
E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R

Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it
 
Posts: 502 | Location: In The Sticks, Missouri  | Registered: 02 February 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The 40-65 is accurate, user friendly, and a very capable BPCR cartridge. In 2005, my wife won the ladies NRA mid range national championship at Raton shooting a Shiloh in that caliber. That is 200, 300, and 600 yards. In 2006, she won the ladies NRA long range event which is 800, 900, and 1000 yards shooting the same set up. A lot of savvy BPCR silhouette competitors shoot the 40-65 because of its accuracy and low recoil.

A few guys hunt with one, and with the right bullet loaded correctly, it is quite a good killer.

I also have a 40-70 2.5 Sharps Straight, and prefer the 40-65 over the 40-70 by a wide margin because of the easy availability of components and the lack of temperament of the 40-65.
 
Posts: 807 | Location: East Texas | Registered: 03 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have been shooting one since 2000 after shooting the 45-70 since 1972.

The 40-65 has a peculiar history. It began life as a short,light bullet (260 grain) round for the 1886 Win. Today's version of it has much heavier bullets and a faster twist. Not only that but there are a number of different chambers including the Winchester, Browning and Shiloh.

For a while at the end of the 1990s the round was fairly popular and was available in both Pedersoli and Browning production rifles. Pedersoli offered rolling blocks and Sharps replicas. Browning sold High Wall clones. I think the number of off the shelf rifles has diminished but your can still turn up one of the older rifles or get one of the semi-custom rifles.
RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Redding and CH offer easy to find reloading dies. Some specialty seaters, crimp dies and form dies are also available. Brass is normally formed from 45-70 though Starline also offers brass with the proper headstamp.
A good assortment of light to heavy bullet molds are offered by Lyman, RCBS, Redding-Saeco and custom mold makers.

I get exceptional accuracy from bullets cast in an NEI mold that was intended for the .405 Win.
For some reason the NEI mold casts at .410 which works really well in my .40-65. I have also shot the Lyman Snover and Redding-Saeco 400 grain bullets but never achieved the accuracy of the lighter bullet.

If you want to test bullets or just let someone else do the casting Buffalo Arms, Sage Brush and others can supply cast bullets in the most popular styles including the .40 caliber version of the Creedmoor style bullet.
 
Posts: 13978 | Location: http://www.tarawaontheweb.org/tarawa2.jpg | Registered: 03 December 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
RIP: It's a very forgiving and competitive midrange target and silhouette cartridge. A lot of guys will tell you its lighter bullets don't buck wind way out there where the .45-90s and bigger come into play. That said, a guy running a .40-65 won our buffalo gong match last month and the targets go to 1200 yards.


Very encouraging! tu2
I bet the winner of the buffalo gong match was using 400-grainers, and I wonder how fast 65 grains of BP can make that bullet move?
Supersonic transition required, +1200 fps at the muzzle, or no?
If barely +1100 fps MV and subsonic all the way, is that more accurate to 1200 yards? How many degrees of elevation required? rotflmo

The 13th Ed. COTW thumbnail for the .40-65 Winchester says the cartridge is also known as the ".40-65 Winchester & Marlin" and was introduced in 1887 for the 1886 Winchester lever action and the 1885 High Wall single shot, then the Marlin 1895 lever action was chambered for it.
COTW Factory Load shown (don't know if BP or smokeless, probably just a lever action usual load) was for a 260-grain bullet at 1420 fps, and they also show a load with 44.0 grains of IMR-3031 doing 1720 fps with 260-grain bullet.

The Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Ed. says it arrived in 1886 as a BP cartridge, but survived as a smokeless factory load until dropped during the 1930s.
Lyman shows only smokeless loads, with a potentially most accurate 400-grain-bullet load of 32.0 grains of IMR-4895 giving 1483 fps. That bullet is from the Lyman mould #410663 using Lyman #2 alloy.

That bullet sure looks a lot like the "Snover" .408/400-grain bullets from Buffalo Arms, which I have 100 of, impulse purchased at the local emporium, years ago, and yes, by golly, that mould number is on the box: Smiler



Did you ever buy some cast lead bullets off the shelf and end up with a rifle for them, just because? Smiler

A couple of years ago, I bought a used Taylor's (Armi Sport) Sharps 1874 .45-70, because I could get it for 900 bucks with the D. Pedersoli sights attached.

Yesterday I removed those sights and replaced with the original front sight that came with the Taylor's rifle.
Then I got $750 for the Taylor's 1874 in trade toward a slightly used Pedersoli Silouhette Model Sharps 1874, that also has "Dixie Gun Works, Inc." on the barrel.
That rifle came with 80 rounds of Starline fired brass and 20 rounds of handloaded BP ammo with 400-grain bullets,
plus the RCBS 3-die "Cowboy" die set, and a Lyman taper crimp die.

So, for $449 I got the Pedersoli Silouhette 1874 .40-65 rifle, brass, dies, and loaded ammo, plus the Pedersoli tang sight, and globe front, spirit level sight,
in exchange for the Armi Sport .45-70,
which means I pocketed a D. Pedersoli wooden-boxed long range sight set,
for the $150 dollars knocked off what I had paid for the Taylor's Sharps 1874 with those sights:
$900 - $750 = $150.

So I am rid of the Armi Sport rifle (thanks) and have an almost new Pedersoli with two sets of sights and 100 rounds of brass and ammo, plus reloading dies, for $449 + $150 = $599
$599 plus having to hold a Taylor's Sharps 1874 for 2 years was the cost of my new outfit: Not a bad interest rate. Wink

I already had a Lyman 40-cal sizing die for .40-65 Win. and .40-70 Sharps Straight, purchased previously, like the "Snover" bullets.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
RIP: It's a very forgiving and competitive midrange target and silhouette cartridge. A lot of guys will tell you its lighter bullets don't buck wind way out there where the .45-90s and bigger come into play. That said, a guy running a .40-65 won our buffalo gong match last month and the targets go to 1200 yards.


Bill:
I know folks shoot these rifles to 1000-1200 yards but, honestly, how? I can't see that far! And the front bead covers a house at that distance. So, a serious question, how is it done? Sight type? Really pondering this one.
Thanks for your input.
Cal


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Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
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Posts: 7152 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 9.3 X 75R:
Wasn't the 40-65 WCF the darling of BPCR Silohuette shooters for a good long while and maybe still is? I believe part of the reason was because it is simple to make by merely resizing the 45-70. Maybe that isn't necessary these days as brass may be available. I've not been active in the game for a few years.
tu2
That is a great point in favor of the .40-65 Winchester: Make brass from .45-70 Govt. brass simply by one pass throught the FL sizing die and trim to 2.1" after it grows longer in the squeeze.

Starline brass is available and excellent in .40-65, just like in .50-70.

tu2
I have no personal experience with it but do have considerable with it's slightly longer brother 40, the 40-2.5 Sharps Straight and an 1886 Winchester in 40-82. I am impressed with the 40's.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by sharpsguy:
The 40-65 is accurate, user friendly, and a very capable BPCR cartridge. In 2005, my wife won the ladies NRA mid range national championship at Raton shooting a Shiloh in that caliber. That is 200, 300, and 600 yards. In 2006, she won the ladies NRA long range event which is 800, 900, and 1000 yards shooting the same set up. A lot of savvy BPCR silhouette competitors shoot the 40-65 because of its accuracy and low recoil.

A few guys hunt with one, and with the right bullet loaded correctly, it is quite a good killer.

I also have a 40-70 2.5 Sharps Straight, and prefer the 40-65 over the 40-70 by a wide margin because of the easy availability of components and the lack of temperament of the 40-65.

tu2
I am really encouraged now!!!
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by SR4759:
I have been shooting one since 2000 after shooting the 45-70 since 1972.

The 40-65 has a peculiar history. It began life as a short,light bullet (260 grain) round for the 1886 Win. Today's version of it has much heavier bullets and a faster twist. Not only that but there are a number of different chambers including the Winchester, Browning and Shiloh.

Pedersoli's version has a 30" long full octagon barrel of minimal if any taper, 1:16" twist, 6-groove, .408" groove diameter, .400" land/bore diameter, "broach-rifled." I find all this very pleasing.
If the .408 Chey-Tac will handle 2-inch long, 400-grain bullets with a 1:13" twist, then the short lead .408/400-grainers should be ideal in the 1:16" twist.
Previous owner was a serious BP shooter and used 400-grainers for his accuracy loads.
Cool

For a while at the end of the 1990s the round was fairly popular and was available in both Pedersoli and Browning production rifles. Pedersoli offered rolling blocks and Sharps replicas. Browning sold High Wall clones. I think the number of off the shelf rifles has diminished but your can still turn up one of the older rifles or get one of the semi-custom rifles.

Actually Dixie Gun works, Inc. is having a special on my rifle right now, used to be $1200, and now can be had for $1095, but they do not break it in for you and throw in the brass, dies, sample ammo, and two sets of sights for that "new gun" price. I bought used for the total package of $559 as described above. Smiler

RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Redding and CH offer easy to find reloading dies. Some specialty seaters, crimp dies and form dies are also available. Brass is normally formed from 45-70 though Starline also offers brass with the proper headstamp.
A good assortment of light to heavy bullet molds are offered by Lyman, RCBS, Redding-Saeco and custom mold makers.

I get exceptional accuracy from bullets cast in an NEI mold that was intended for the .405 Win.
For some reason the NEI mold casts at .410 which works really well in my .40-65. I have also shot the Lyman Snover and Redding-Saeco 400 grain bullets but never achieved the accuracy of the lighter bullet.

I'll keep that in mind, but my rifle is supposed to like the 400-grainers, according to previous owner.

If you want to test bullets or just let someone else do the casting Buffalo Arms, Sage Brush and others can supply cast bullets in the most popular styles including the .40 caliber version of the Creedmoor style bullet.

I'll do that. If the snovers from the lyman mould work, that is an easy choice. tu2
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
RIP: It's a very forgiving and competitive midrange target and silhouette cartridge. A lot of guys will tell you its lighter bullets don't buck wind way out there where the .45-90s and bigger come into play. That said, a guy running a .40-65 won our buffalo gong match last month and the targets go to 1200 yards.


Bill:
I know folks shoot these rifles to 1000-1200 yards but, honestly, how? I can't see that far! And the front bead covers a house at that distance. So, a serious question, how is it done? Sight type? Really pondering this one.
Thanks for your input.
Cal


Cal,
Your rifles do not have globe front sights with spirit levels and inserts that have a tiny aperature, no bead to cover target.
You peep at the target through a tiny front sight peep that is centered in the rear peep on the tang.
Double-peeping must be like "accuracy squared," eh?
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks to all for encouraging me about my purchase. Smiler

I did have to clean the dirty brass and the dies, but the rifle was nicely cared for by previous owner.
Minimal cleaning of rifle required.

The $599 outfit of rifle, sights, dies, brass, and ammo, plus one extra neck-sizing die and one 20-round box of factory ammo I paid extra for:



























 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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RIP, You're a wild man! I love your economic calculus, too.
Cal, If you look at RIP's box of sight equipment, you can see that by using various front sight inserts you can easily set up a sight picture featuring a fine wire aperture front, which you are centering in an adjustable aperture rear, which itself is finely adjustable for windage and elevation. A 1200-yard paper target is often a 6-foot bull. In our case it is a life-size steel bison silhouette. If you know your load's trajectory and have your sight settings written down, it is not hard to make hits at these distances.


There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t.
– John Green, author
 
Posts: 14439 | Location: Alamogordo, NM | Registered: 03 June 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Great grab, and looks like a fun caliber.
 
Posts: 19090 | Location: Very NW NJ up in the Mountains | Registered: 14 June 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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RIP--Ya done good, my man! That is an accurate rifle with a fine barrel. Load 58 grains of KIK 2f with a CCI 200 primer for 1220 fps and enjoy yourself. Unless you are a first cousin to an orangatang and total recoil wus, get rid of that wrap on recoil pad. Get a Lyman 403169 that throws a 250 grain bullet and the velocity jumps to 1457 with that 58 grain powder charge and that 250 grain bullet will shoot ALL THE WAY THROUGH a 5 inch diameter sweetgum tree at 50 yards--and the thing kicks about as hard as a Benjamin pump. Deadly on deer and hogs. You got yourself a real keeper. I've had one just like that in my gun rack since about 1998.
 
Posts: 807 | Location: East Texas | Registered: 03 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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