quote:

I know folks shoot these rifles to 1000-1200 yards but, honestly, how? I can't see that far! And the front bead covers a house at that distance. So, a serious question, how is it done? Sight type? Really pondering this one.
Thanks for your input.

A 6ft bullseye would be 72".
If shot at 1000 yards it will appear the same apparent size as a 7.2" diameter bullseye at 100 yards.

In the front sight you use a lollipop insert with a hole large enough to leave a ring of light. The heavy lollipop rim forms a circle that is centered in a properly sized rear aperture. If the narrow rings of light vary any at all it is very easy for the eye to detect the misalignment. Even with old fuzzy eyes you can still center a fuzzy ring of light.

RIP
I will make some comments on your stuff based on my experience with the same stuff in a different mix.

If your Starline brass has never been annealed you might want to anneal it. As it comes from Starline it is very hard and does not seal well. You will get a lot of blow by soot on the outside of the case neck.
The hard brass being so springy tends to spring back to a smaller inside diameter after the expander is pulled out. This leads to the case neck sizing down the bullet base when the bullet is seated. The usual 20-1 to 30-1 tin lead bullets are really soft. When you damage the bullet bases they are not going to shoot as well. Track of the Wolf and Buffalo Arms both sell larger expander plugs that allow you to size to .001 under or if you prefer to the same diameter and allow only the grip of a little spring back. Many of the BPCR shooters do not size the case necks. They hand seat the bullets and may apply a slight amount of crimp to keep the bullet from falling out.

Forming 40-65 brass is not a very fun process.
The 40-65 case tends to trap lube at the neck if you size more than about .125 to .250 at a pass. To avoid cases with striations and lube creases you have to wipe the very tiny amount of excess lube off of the case after each pass.
After they are formed do not be in a rush to trim them back to 2.100". If the cases are trimmed shorter than the chamber you will often extract a fired case and it will have a ring of lead debris packed onto the front edge of the case mouth. This happens when the bullet is expanded into the gap between the case mouth and the end of the chamber. You should measure your chamber and trim the brass to suit. Many of the competitors actually trim the brass .005 to .007 longer than the chamber. The bullet is seated and case is crimped slightly to allow it to be chambered. When fired the case inflates like a balloon and actually gets shorter to fit the chamber. The next time the case is loaded the bullets are just seated with bare fingers. I do not use that technique. I like the case neck to be either the same size to .001 under bullet diameter. To get this I have to size my brass making it grow in lenght. I trim my brass the same length as the chamber and when fired it shortens to .005 to .007 less than the chamber. This small gap is better than the .025 to .040 gap you may have with a 2.100" case that will be 2.093 to 2.095 when fired.
My .40-65 is a Browning but I also have a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70. My experience with the Pedersoli sights comes from the .45-70. Between the sights that came on my rifle and other sights that I bought I have one of each of the Pedersoli sights.
They do have several draw backs.
1. The fit of the parts is pretty loose once you unscrew the disk for an elevation change. This prevents the elevation changes from being consistent.
2. The front to rear dimension of the aperture and aperture blocks is so great that you cannot fold the sight enough to clear a cleaning rod at the range. Pedersoli did a fairly good job on the rifle design and manufacture. The sights look nice but they are a bit too sloppy for competition. They are good if you are going to shoot at a fixed distance.

If you remove the barrel open sight and examine it you will find it an obamnation. I took mine off because my front sight is so low that it interfered with my sight picture. I also could not stand to look at it after I had handled it. It is of about the quality of a Khyber hand filed item.

I think you will find the sight outside of the box (the one with double windage slides) a better range sight than the huge boat anchor Soule.

You can put together a cute Soule so to speak by adding the double windage slide to the staff of the Soule. Then add the wind gauge front sight and you will have 3 windage adjustments to play with.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Thanks to all for encouraging me about my purchase.

I did have to clean the dirty brass and the dies, but the rifle was nicely cared for by previous owner.
Minimal cleaning of rifle required.

The $599 outfit of rifle, sights, dies, brass, and ammo, plus one extra neck-sizing die and one 20-round box of factory ammo I paid extra for:

That is a fine acquisition!! You will enjoy the entire process immensely!! Congrats and good luck.

SR4759,
Thanks for the tips on sights, and making 40-65 brass from 45-70 brass. There's nothing I hate more than lube-dents&creases.
I am also taking notes on the trimming and neck-sizing issues, and will anneal the brass.

Bill,
My economic calculus ...

sharpsguy,
I resemble the orangutan remark!

9.3 X 75R,
Thanks.
Yep, this is my training wheels for BPCR shooting.
Seems to be a "best buy" shooter,
if sharpsguy's experience is considered with this specific model in .40-65
along with the current new-gun price at Dixie Gun Works on "special":
$1095 for the .40-65, but $1495 for the .45-70, same "Silhouhette" model rifle.
My "economic calculus" does not compute a 400-dollar difference there!

A good deal on a 40-65 is always a good thing.
You can find 45-70s everywhere.

>>>My "economic calculus" does not compute a 400-dollar difference there!<<<

45-70s offers factory ammo

The lack of factory ammo makes it difficult to sell 40-65s to the non-reloading public.

Thanks Biebs for the new site

SR4759,

You have greatly exaggerated the difficulty of forming 40-65 Win brass from 45-70 Govt. brass.
It is the easiest, one-pass bit of forming I have ever done,
with not a single lube-dent or crease.
It forms beautiful brass from Winchester-made .45-70 Govt.
Only a bit of trimming is needed as it does grow considerably when necked down from 45 to 40.
I have 500 .45-70 cases on hand.
100 of the new, unfired ones will be transform in the blink of an eye to .40-65 Winchester.

Report back after you have done more than 1.
I have about 500 worth of experience.
I have not exaggerated a bit. And I have the pile of brass to prove it.
I also have brass that I bought from a friend and he also had the same problem. Some of that brass has not been fire formed and you can still see striations and divots at the case mouth.
I have had pretty much the same results with R-P, WW and Federal. I get good cases but I have to go slow to avoid creases.
I suggest that you skip cannelured brass and any that has the silly serrated factory rings like Federal. I have not sized down Starline since you can buy it already formed. However you will find defects in Starline factory 40-65 brass due to the same problem.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
SR4759,

You have greatly exaggerated the difficulty of forming 40-65 Win brass from 45-70 Govt. brass.
It is the easiest, one-pass bit of forming I have ever done,
with not a single lube-dent or crease.
It forms beautiful brass from Winchester-made .45-70 Govt.
Only a bit of trimming is needed as it does grow considerably when necked down from 45 to 40.
I have 500 .45-70 cases on hand.
100 of the new, unfired ones will be transform in the blink of an eye to .40-65 Winchester.

RIP.

I reload for three of them (wife's, daughter's and dad's) and I have found that the .40-65 is about as easy and straight forward to develop accurate loads for as any black powder cartridge. However, given the availability of excellent .40-65 brass from Starline, I would not bother to resize .45-70. I must be luckier than SR4759, since I have about 600 rounds of Starline brass and have not found any with problems.

As to loading technique, refer to my earlier post about how I load for .45-70. I use the same reloading process for each of my black powder cartridge rifles.

loud-n-boomer:

SR4759,

I must respectfully disagree.
I have been wildcatting and reshaping brass as needed, quite extensively, for the past 15 years.
.45-70 to .40-65 is about the simplest and easiest operation possible.

My first session of resizing turned 25 spare pieces of WW .45-70 brass into .40-65 brass.
I will do another hundred since my new brass lots of WW .45-70 are in hundreds.
That will give me 100 pieces of Starline with proper headstamp,
and 125 pieces of Winchester Western (WW) brass to play with for starters.
If I have a single bad case, dent, or wrinkle in the lot, I will photograph it and post here.

This is what the first pass looked like, no cleaning or polishing has been done, still has the lube on the cases:



I can't help but wonder if you are doing something wrong, if you are having any problems at all?

Here's the tricks:

1. Use a Lyman Case Lube Pad (Item No. 7631302).
2. Use RCBS Case Lube-2 to saturate the pad.
3. Put 5 cases on the pad at a time, and roll them one time from top to bottom of pad, long ways.
4. Stand the lubed cases on end in reloading block, base down as you go.
5. Wipe hands thoroughly on clean paper towels.
6. Pick up a single case with fingers and grab rim of one case with non-dominant thumb and index finger.
7. With dominant thumb and index finger, grab the pad-lubed case and wipe it with clean fingers from base to mouth,
using the other hand to spin the rim and retract the case. This removes excess lube from the case.
8. Put the case in the press shell holder and size with one easy and quick stroke, one pass.

Important: Before going to next case WIPE YOUR FINGERS ON A PAPER TOWEL OR ON YOUR BOXER SHORTS before you handle another piece of brass.
This is the most fun you can have with your boxer shorts on, making .40-65 brass from .45-70 brass, perfect every time.
Very relaxing.

After boxer trimming, and boxer tumbling, the cases will be boxer primed.

The .40-65 Winchester has a 0.590"-long neck of .432" O.D. throughout.
So, yes, it has a "ghost shoulder" at neck-1.
Neck-2 diameter is same as neck-1, 0.432" brass maximum.
Max brass length is 2.105".
Base to ghost shoulder/neck-1 distance is 1.515".
Base diameter is .504".
Rim diameter is .608" and thickness is .070".

The 40-70 Sharps Straight is a straight taper from a smaller base diameter of .456" to case mouth neck O.D. of .433".
Rim diameter is only .540" and thickness .060".
Max brass length is 2.500", long and skinny!
Make it from .30-40 Krag basic cylindrical if it can be found in a form that is long enough for 2.5" instead of 2.314" for .30-40 Krag.

The .40-65 Winchester is a much prettier cartridge than the .40-70 Sharps Straight,
and much easier to make brass for!
.45-70 works like basic cylindrical for this case.
But the Starline brass is also very reasonably priced for .40-65 Win.
Win-win.

You need to know what your chamber looks like in a 40-65 as a lot of different reamers have been used. Most current BPCR models use .409-.410 bullets and dies while older originals are much smaller. Ron Long made his chambers for 2.130 brass which is about right for FL formed 45-70 brass without trimming.

RIP
So you are an 40-65 expert after 25 cases?
And you have loaded how many? And you have fired how many? And you have been doing this wow 15 years. jajajaja
Now try forming once fired 45-70 to 40-65. See how big the skid mark in your shorts is after that. I think your verbosity is hiding reality.

I am not sure why you think forming the .40-70 Sharps Straight is difficult. Hint: Start out with the right brass and it is easy. At least it was in 1985. There is a much better way than what you describe.
I really prefer the .40-70 SS vs the .40-65 case shape. However some of the .40-70SS rifles were intended for paper patched bullets. The paper patch chamber neck was/is too small for groove diameter bullets. To correct this the chamber requires the neck be opened up on some originals.

I will leave the 40-65 Starline brass to you and the other guys. Even the guy with the pony tail at Starline admitted they had a lot of brass loss when form it. Call him and ask him. Buy some of their brass and check it out. Shoot it and see how you like it. I think you will like R-P or W-W over the Starline.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
loud-n-boomer:

SR4759,

I must respectfully disagree.
I have been wildcatting and reshaping brass as needed, quite extensively, for the past 15 years.
.45-70 to .40-65 is about the simplest and easiest operation possible.

My first session of resizing turned 25 spare pieces of WW .45-70 brass into .40-65 brass.
I will do another hundred since my new brass lots of WW .45-70 are in hundreds.
That will give me 100 pieces of Starline with proper headstamp,
and 125 pieces of Winchester Western (WW) brass to play with for starters.
If I have a single bad case, dent, or wrinkle in the lot, I will photograph it and post here.

This is what the first pass looked like, no cleaning or polishing has been done, still has the lube on the cases:



I can't help but wonder if you are doing something wrong, if you are having any problems at all?

Here's the tricks:

1. Use a Lyman Case Lube Pad (Item No. 7631302).
2. Use RCBS Case Lube-2 to saturate the pad.
3. Put 5 cases on the pad at a time, and roll them one time from top to bottom of pad, long ways.
4. Stand the lubed cases on end in reloading block, base down as you go.
5. Wipe hands thoroughly on clean paper towels.
6. Pick up a single case with fingers and grab rim of one case with non-dominant thumb and index finger.
7. With dominant thumb and index finger, grab the pad-lubed case and wipe it with clean fingers from base to mouth,
using the other hand to spin the rim and retract the case. This removes excess lube from the case.
8. Put the case in the press shell holder and size with one easy and quick stroke, one pass.

Important: Before going to next case WIPE YOUR FINGERS ON A PAPER TOWEL OR ON YOUR BOXER SHORTS before you handle another piece of brass.
This is the most fun you can have with your boxer shorts on, making .40-65 brass from .45-70 brass, perfect every time.
Very relaxing.

After boxer trimming, and boxer tumbling, the cases will be boxer primed.

The .40-65 Winchester has a 0.590"-long neck of .432" O.D. throughout.
So, yes, it has a "ghost shoulder" at neck-1.
Neck-2 diameter is same as neck-1, 0.432" brass maximum.
Max brass length is 2.105".
Base to ghost shoulder/neck-1 distance is 1.515".
Base diameter is .504".
Rim diameter is .608" and thickness is .070".

The 40-70 Sharps Straight is a straight taper from a smaller base diameter of .456" to case mouth neck O.D. of .433".
Rim diameter is only .540" and thickness .060".
Max brass length is 2.500", long and skinny!
Make it from .30-40 Krag basic cylindrical if it can be found in a form that is long enough for 2.5" instead of 2.314" for .30-40 Krag.

The .40-65 Winchester is a much prettier cartridge than the .40-70 Sharps Straight,
and much easier to make brass for!
.45-70 works like basic cylindrical for this case.
But the Starline brass is also very reasonably priced for .40-65 Win.
Win-win.

quote:

Originally posted by larry bryant:
You need to know what your chamber looks like in a 40-65 as a lot of different reamers have been used. Most current BPCR models use .409-.410 bullets and dies while older originals are much smaller. Ron Long made his chambers for 2.130 brass which is about right for FL formed 45-70 brass without trimming.

Interesting.
The .45-70 brass cartridge case is so easy to turn into a .40-65 brass cartridge case
that "Ron Long" designed a rifle chamber specifically for that, with brass left a little "Long."
I rest my case.

RIP:

Not saying that there is any problem resizing the .45-70 brass, heck you can even stretch it into .45-90 brass. Admittedly, it is about $0.20 per round cheaper to form it from .45-70, but I am just too darn lazy to bother when I can buy already formed Starline brass.

Dave

loud-n-boomer,

Starline brass is great, so is Winchester Western 45-70 necked down.

Here is what Clyde "Snooky" Williamson says about forming brass for the 40-65 WCF in his authoritative book
WINCHESTER LEVER LEGACY on pg. 101 of the 665 page tome:

"Cases are formed from new 45-70 brass. Lube lightly with the fingers. Oil dents occur while forming this case easily. Insert into the 40-65 full length sizing die halfway and remove. Insert case fully until the die touches the shell holder. Trim to length. Fire forming is unnecessary. If you feel the stress is great forming the 40-65 from 45-70 cases, forming dies from RCBS on this cartridge make it easier."

If you get the light lube right, as I did, it is just a quick in and out, one stroke forming.
The only problem I had, was if the 45-70 case mouth has a sufficiently bad dent
that is not ironed out and uniformed before going into the 40-65 die, then the 40-65 neck will fold inward as a crease, ruined.
After five of those, I made sure any malformed 45-70 brass was neck sized to round and uniform,
then no more problems.
I now have 120 pieces of Starline brass and 120 pieces of WW brass.
Need to check the case capacity difference now.
Pending weights and overflow water check, I have a feeling the Starline is heavier and lesser capacity.
Might get more BP into the WW brass.