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Mixing the same type of powder is OK but I'm not so sure about blending several different kinds. I will say that without the pressure trace equipment there is no way of knowing what is going on. I learn something new everytime I see the PT work. AMAZING!
 
Posts: 2798 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
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Jim

Yes, I have been working with IMR 8208 and H-322 in the 500 MDM the last few weeks. H-322 is a tiny bit fast, IMR 8208 just about right. So I took two control loads--85/IMR 8208 and 85/H-322 alone. Then I took a blend of 85 gr 25% H-322 + 75% IMR 8208, then 50% Blend 85 gr, and then 25% IMR 8208 + 75% h-322 85 grs tested those. It was very interesting, the blends gave really nice traces and consistency. Now the next step of that same test is to take each blend up in pressure to maximum and run the data to see if you have made an improvement, lower pressures, more velocity.

The trick is getting a safe blend, and picking the right powders to blend to begin with. My mind is thinking mixing powders that have different burning rates to get to a point you are looking for, in a particular case capacity. Each case of course is vastly different. This I think can only be done with the equipment I have, it's sensitive and can see things we would never know anything about by case study or chronographs alone. For instance, while each test gave some far different pressures, the curves and consistency really shows up on the pressure traces. The Controls of each powder alone did not really look so good at 85 grs. Blended, the traces come together beautifully and consistent as hell! Pretty amazing stuff actually. Very intriguing! I don't believe this is something for the masses, and I don't recommend doing this, but it is something I am going to study and work on here to see what the "Mad Scientist" can concoct! HEH HEH............... cuckoo

Oh for sure, pour the 10X together, shake things up, and remove "Keg Variance", no problem doing that at all. I have done that several times.

Sam, Correct--Do not do this at Home Children! LOL................

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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At one time, having more than one powder in a shell was the THING of the day. Duplex loading. I believe it got has high as three different powders. Triplex loading. Although the powders were loaded separately there was no effort made to keep them separate with any sort of barrier. I suppose some mixing took place from the vibration of movement. As I recall, the greatest success was with powders that were fairly close to each other in burn rates. The purpose was to try and maintain an even pressure as the bullet traveled down the barrel.

Experiments by Gibbs and by Keith were with forward ignition. A flash tube was threaded into the primer pocket which lead the primer flash to the front of the cartridge, igniting the charge from the front. The theory was that the pressure wave from the ignition would keep the powder in the cartridge as the powder burned. It was said that you clould feel the difference in the temperature of the ejected shell from normal ignition shells. A recent edition of Cartridges of the World had an insert where this technique was revisited. The only measured difference to normal ignition was that the forward ignition cartridges showed very small variation in velocity between cartridges compaired to normal ignition. That makes sense as the normal ignition blows the powder forward in an inconsistant manner during ignition.

All that said. Be VERY careful with mixing powders. Both in the physical act of mixing and in the powders you chose to mix. sofa
 
Posts: 404 | Registered: 08 May 2005Reply With Quote
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LOL… Michael you are definitely the ‘Mad Scientist’ and yes this is very interesting stuff. And both you and Sam are correct…a properly equipped lab is required for safeties sake when blending different powders together. Please share your results though whether pass or fail as they’ll definitely be interesting!


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4953 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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On the blended powders, next thing is to run with the blends I have done so far with IMR 8208/H-322, going up to Safe Max with all three blends, see if there is an advantage to any particular blend, and if there is an advantage to the blend vs control.

Then figure out another blend in a particular cartridge, naturally I will be working with the B&Ms on this, already have wires and gages hooked up to all of them.

So we see what we see, and will do this along with other work in progress.

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Not to change the subject--but I want an opinion or two on the 458SS Its making lots of sense to me. Any down side and where can it go?

SSR
 
Posts: 6725 | Location: central Texas | Registered: 05 August 2010Reply With Quote
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DocM,

Just a thought. Let me first say I have no experience with reloading. Some thoughts though, from ummm a physics perspective.

When you mix different powders, is it not going to be an uneven mix? Unless you mix them for each round individually how do you know that there will always be 25% of powder A and 75% of powder B in the mix? If that is not the case (by that I mean the mix you want) will you not get an uneven burn from cartridge to cartridge? Doc, just asking Smiler. Of course, if the powders were liquid we could guarantee the mixture.

In any case, great work. Sitting here in India right now where I can neither reload nor own more than 3 "weapons" this is wonderful stuff. Makes me question my sanity as to why I came back from the US in the first place. dancing
 
Posts: 680 | Registered: 08 December 2009Reply With Quote
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EssKay

No man, good ideas. What I did thus far is weight out how much was needed for each load, then deposited that in one of my empty med bottles, shook hell out of it, loaded up! What one will aim for, so to speak, is a compressed load so as to not worry about the settle/shake up in a loose load. Even slightly compressed if mixed proper, it should hold position. If granules are close to the same size, even better.

I mix different liquids all the time, correct on that point, to a point, some liquids don't like to stay in solution over time or depending on PH factors of the water used to mix as well.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Cross L:
Not to change the subject--but I want an opinion or two on the 458SS Its making lots of sense to me. Any down side and where can it go?

SSR


Well, I think I have the only 458 B&M SS at the moment. Lot's of 50s out there in the world, but 458 and 475 have not caught on quite yet.

When I finished the load data on the 458 B&M SS I was so pleased I took all available 45/70s and put the in "The Go" rack, no need for them anymore. I kept a few 45/70s that had some history, one I had shot buffalo with, another bison, another one with moose, my darling wife bought me a 1885 once for my birthday, things like that, a 45/70 that had no history, had no use with the 458 B&M SS hanging around! It very easy replaces and surpasses that once you drop below the 400 gr bullet mark. With it's 16 inch barrel I can't get past 2000 fps with a 400, all over it, 1950-1975, but 2000 is just out of reach unless you run over Max pressures. Drop to 350s and 300s, then things start picking up drastically.

Because of diameter and caliber, the 50 does better with the same weight bullet than the 475 or the 458, in that order. Larger surface area in which to spread pressures, larger bore diameter in which to burn powder, that extra cubic inches of volume inside the barrel makes a big difference in every step down from .500. 458 B&M SS is very effective, 475 a little more, and the 50 a little more than that. It's just the way things are, choose the right bullets in each, and they all make effective cartridges/rifle combos. I have been so busy with most of the other B&Ms I have yet to take to the field with any of the Super Shorts myself, nor the 50 B&M Alaskan, or 9.3 B&M. Much of that will change this year in Australia and Africa. 9.3 will be along for both trips this year, in Australia a 50 Super SHort and 475 Super Short will be on the ride. We will see how effective they are on Australian buffalo this year!

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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I am getting interested in a 458 SS build as an all around, every day in the 4-wheeler, hog and dear rifle. the concept of a great hog gun in a 6# 36in package just looks super. The thing I also keep thinking about the 458 vs the other Super shorts is the huge array of bullets. For rabbits armadillos and coyotes I don't need new model bullets, cup and core will do famously.

Got me seriously thinking, Michael-- jumping

That stainless with the Hill-billy camo sure looks neat.

SSR
 
Posts: 6725 | Location: central Texas | Registered: 05 August 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
EssKay

No man, good ideas. What I did thus far is weight out how much was needed for each load, then deposited that in one of my empty med bottles, shook hell out of it, loaded up! What one will aim for, so to speak, is a compressed load so as to not worry about the settle/shake up in a loose load. Even slightly compressed if mixed proper, it should hold position. If granules are close to the same size, even better.

I mix different liquids all the time, correct on that point, to a point, some liquids don't like to stay in solution over time or depending on PH factors of the water used to mix as well.

Michael


OMG DocM, I think mixing different liquids (which I do frequently also) is different from mixing granules...well as long as it works and keeps my 2 favorite threads going Big Grin
 
Posts: 680 | Registered: 08 December 2009Reply With Quote
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I have been so busy with most of the other B&Ms I have yet to take to the field with any of the Super Shorts myself, nor the 50 B&M Alaskan, or 9.3 B&M. Much of that will change this year in Australia and Africa. 9.3 will be along for both trips this year, in Australia a 50 Super SHort and 475 Super Short will be on the ride. We will see how effective they are on Australian buffalo this year!



Shouldn't be any problems, I've had "some" suggest those Ausie buff are MUCH easier to knock down than the Capes Cool
 
Posts: 527 | Location: Australia | Registered: 30 June 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
quote:
I have been so busy with most of the other B&Ms I have yet to take to the field with any of the Super Shorts myself, nor the 50 B&M Alaskan, or 9.3 B&M. Much of that will change this year in Australia and Africa. 9.3 will be along for both trips this year, in Australia a 50 Super SHort and 475 Super Short will be on the ride. We will see how effective they are on Australian buffalo this year!



Shouldn't be any problems, I've had "some" suggest those Ausie buff are MUCH easier to knock down than the Capes Cool




Paul, they did not see that BIG prime bull I shot several times with the 500 MDM I reckon. Roughly 20%-25% bigger than any cape I have ever seen, built like a full on Abrams Tank, and damn near bullet proof! Hit him, down, get up again and go! Yeah, I reckon they did not see one of those!

I have a couple of tricks up my sleeve this year! Even with the Super Shorts, they have been enhanced beyond anything they would have ever been capable of, with the BBW#13s and the North Fork CPS made for them. Penetration will not come short, and neither will trauma inflicted. The other thing that I will have is my oldest son, Matthew, anything goes sour, he will just wrestle them to the dirt and beat them to death! LOL...........

Cross, I used the last stainless/camo WSSM I had for the 475 B&M Super Short. Matching 458/475 guns! HEH............... Will have to find you one!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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The other thing that I will have is my oldest son, Matthew, anything goes sour, he will just wrestle them to the dirt and beat them to death!


No doubt bout that, and once he's wrestled it I'm quite sure that he and Marc would quite easily consume an entire buff at one sitting and leave no remains !
I'll have to remember to carry a bottle of Ketchup with me.
 
Posts: 527 | Location: Australia | Registered: 30 June 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
quote:
The other thing that I will have is my oldest son, Matthew, anything goes sour, he will just wrestle them to the dirt and beat them to death!


No doubt bout that, and once he's wrestled it I'm quite sure that he and Marc would quite easily consume an entire buff at one sitting and leave no remains !
I'll have to remember to carry a bottle of Ketchup with me.



I would highly recommend that no one get in between those two and any potential meal. It might get rather ugly. I doubt you would get a chance to use the ketchup. Think ravenous Piranhas.

HEH........

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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I have been for weeks now working on loads and brass for both 500 MDM and 9.3 B&M. Taking some ammo across the pond in April for these two.

As some of you know many hand loaders have to make brass for their favorites from something else. The B&Ms are no different in this area. Making brass for the B&Ms is an easy task as things go. All the B&Ms, not including the Super Shorts, Alaskan and MDM, are made from cut and trimmed RUM brass, cut and trimmed to 2.240 inches. Simple matter to form is to just size them in the respective dies. That simple.

Here is the rub, most know that if you Full Length size a case like this, if it has a shoulder it gives it some running room forward during the firing process, and sometimes will stretch the case about 3/4 inch up from the rim, causing a ring you can easily see on the outside. Rub a small screwdriver inside the case and you can feel the split. So I have been actively not full length sizing, but leaving a bump as the new brass and load go into the chamber, shoulder bumping so as to not have any running room when fired. No split cases.

I ruined a couple of hundred 416 B&Ms by letting the case run from full length sizing back in the beginning.

I have to make a couple of hundred 9.3 B&Ms. So I am really getting lazy here, I don't really want to form-load-fire form-load again. Since I really had never tried the 9.3 full length forming, I thought I would give it a go. Formed brass from the size die works through the guns slick, no bumps, no bangs, easy go. I was sure they would split, so I tried a couple of different loads with RL 15 and IMR 4320. Fired perfectly, and no splits at all? Hmmmmmm? This might just be ok!

Being a bit of a stickler for perfection, overly so sometimes, I decided to check pressures, and see if there were differences in many different loads from FL Formed to actual already Fire Formed loads in the 9.3. There were some vast differences in some 458 B&Ms that I tried some time ago, so I was curious to see if I could just FL size, load, and go to the field.

I used nothing in these tests but FL Formed in the size die, easy in, easy go in two rifles. One hooked to the Pressure Trace to check things out. I tried several different loads, powders and bullets, mostly 255 BBW#13 NonCon and what remaining 210 Raptors I had on hand from the first prototypes.

I was astounded at the results with different powders on the brass. With AA 2520 and TAC, both ball type powders, the cases would begin to split in every single round fired. These are full loads, nothing reduced, 58000-65000 PSI loads. Every single round fired with an extruded powder, RL 15 and IMR 4320, IMR 8208--Not one of the cases split, not one! Ball powder--Split cases every time--Extruded Powders--NONE. I found that amazing! WHY? Don't have a clue, but it is the case 100% of the time.

Take the Ball Powders, use Fire Formed brass, NO ISSUES at all--NO SPLITS, no problems, nothing. But don't use ball in 9.3 B&M to fire form or use full loads with FL Formed brass.

Pressures? Out of 3-5 rounds of FL Formed Brass you would have one that would give some sort of wild reading, sometimes a bit high, most of the time a bit low. Nothing dangerous high--If your load is 60000 PSI, then one might go to 65000 PSI. Another might drop from 60000 to 55000 PSI. I suspect that one piece of brass might not be the exact composition of the others and cause a little less or little more from time to time during the firing process. Many times pressures were dead on and consistent. So much so that I decided to be a bit lazy and will be taking some of this FL Formed brass and using it in the field, of course with IMR 4320 which showed very good results and highest velocity at lowest pressures. I can easy push that 210 Raptor to over 3000 fps in 20 inches of barrel and be well under max pressures. Right now at 2960 fps at 61000 PSI. Add a tip to these, and it will approach 3000 FPS at the chronograph as is.

Next I intend to look at some of the other B&Ms without ball powders on that first FL Formed case and see if the results are the same. With the 416 B&M a few years ago, I was using AA 2520 in that capacity! Ruined a couple hundred cases on that run! Hmmmmmm? I wonder???

Just a tid bit of info I wanted to share with you, these sort of things are not limited to 9.3 B&M or any particular case, it could apply to any of them?

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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That's interesting, and a puzzle to me. bewildered
Were the ball powder loads compressed at all?

I have no understanding of it, why a ball powder could do that and the extruded/stick powders do not.
Add that to the caking/solidification of old compressed ball powder factory loads.
And I just never got the accuracy with ball powders that I get with stick powders.

I avoid the ball powders whenever there is a stick-grain powder alternative, preferably a "short cut" or small-grained extruded that meters well.
A slightly compressed load of stick powder is what I always strive for.
No shake or rattle, no shifting air space.
More uniform and accurate loads.
Can't do that with a ball powder if you avoid compressed ball powder loads.

In the days before B&M, somehow they got by:
 
Posts: 27345 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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RIP

Yes, the AA 2520 and TAC are compressed, not heavily.

Both AA 2520 and TAC give excellent results in some of the B&Ms, 416 and 458 B&M in particular. 76/TAC with the 450 BBW#13 Solid gives a steady 2268 fps, not as heavily compressed as the load with AA 2520. With the 420 BBW#13 NonCon 78/TAC gives an incredible 2358 fps in my 20 inch test gun--at 59000 PSI. Right now, TAC stands as top dog in 458 B&M. Yet it is ball. With performance like that it's hard to discount just because it is a ball powder.

IMR 8208, not a ball powder comes close to this performance, but slightly higher pressures.

Most loads in the B&Ms are compressed, and I like it that way. Bullets tend to stay in place if they have no where to go rearward! HEH........ And of course we always keep a close eye on pressures.

Now the only thing I can figure is that the way the ball powders burn in a Full Length Formed case causes a pull forward of the brass, extruded must burn outward expanding into the chamber.

With fully fired brass there are no issues at all with the ball powders. Some of these things simply amaze me as well. I doubt we will ever discover quite everything when it comes to some of this stuff. Just when you think you know something................

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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RIP:

You might give the Accurate and Ramshot spherical powders a second look. They have really improved in the last several years and, as Michael says, in some cartridges, especially those with limited case capacity, they are the best alternatives. Accurate 2230 is all I shoot anymore with 400 grain bullets in my 45-70 and 450 Marlin. I have had great luck with Ramshot Big Game as well, especially in my .338 RCM.

In my 450 Marlin, I found that I did indeed get to much powder compression with the long homogenous bullets like the Woodleigh Hydro so I switched to Accurate 1680 and it worked very well. I intend to try 1680 with the 400 grain BBW#13 as well when I can get around to it.


Dave
DRSS
Chapuis 9.3X74
Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL
Krieghoff 500/.416 NE
Krieghoff 500 NE

"Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer"

"If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition).
 
Posts: 3728 | Location: Midwest | Registered: 26 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Dave

Here I find many strange things that can happen with different cartridges and powder combos. With the PT hooked up you see a lot more than just using velocities. It is really wild how some things look pretty good across the chrono, but when you look at the traces it looks like crap. Make the slightest change and it comes together proper.

Make a change in the cartridge-- For instance common logic would tell you that 458 B&M and 475 B&M are so close in design that the same powders would be common between the two. Not so. What is top dog powders in the 458 B&M, TAC, IMR 8208, AA 2520, with heavy loads, is not in the 475 B&M. The powders that are only ok with the 458 are tops with the 475? Best velocity, lowest pressures.

Some of these little changes make a world of difference. This is why Blending powders has intrigued me somewhat, and after the first blending test in 500 MDM I am even more intrigued by what one might learn.

TAC has really proven to be excellent for some of my work here. So good that I have another 8 lbs coming, along with this IMR 8208 too. Of course IMR 8208 is not ball, but short extruded. Also excellent in the 458 B&M, but only good in the 475 B&M. Interesting, 475 B&M is at it's best with H-322. While 458 B&M H-322 is only good, not great. Go to the 50 and it's a different world.

For the ball powders, I will replace the AA 2520 with TAC loads.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Michael:

I agree completely. I have had great luck with some of the Ramshot powder. I have eight pounders of TAC, Big Game, and HUNTER. Some of the Accurate spherical powders are excellent as well. 2230 is superb and when I switched over to AA1680 it worked perfectly with the homogenous bullets in the 450 Marlin. Only slight powder compression which is just what I was after. Accurate says that "Accurate 1680 is an extremely fast burning, double-base, spherical rifle powder that is well suited for large capacity, high performance handgun cartridges such as the 454 Casull, 460 S&W and 500 S&W." However, I am told that 1680 is the old Winchester 680 and that it is temperature sensitive. My next step is to load up some of those marvelous 400 grain BBW#13s and have a go with them. You just need to find a powder that works well in your particular rifle/cartridge/bullet combo.

Be careful with that blending my friend. I don't want to see you blow yourself up Wink


Dave
DRSS
Chapuis 9.3X74
Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL
Krieghoff 500/.416 NE
Krieghoff 500 NE

"Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer"

"If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition).
 
Posts: 3728 | Location: Midwest | Registered: 26 November 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
For the ball powders, I will replace the AA 2520 with TAC loads.


Now you tell me after I just bought a bunch of AA 2520-----hehehe

Its all good tu2


SSR
 
Posts: 6725 | Location: central Texas | Registered: 05 August 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Be careful with that blending my friend. I don't want to see you blow yourself up Wink



hilbily

Living on the edge! HEH............

I have a # of this and that, I tried AA 2230, Big Game, Hunter? I think, none did as well as the TAC in the 458/475. They might do well as I go down to 416/9.3 maybe. I have tried 1680 in a few things, in the 458 B&M Super Short it did rather well with one load I tried. Had a 350 Speer at 2160 and 55000 PSI. Lilgun the same velocity but 59000 PSI.

By the way, I sent some sample .510 BBW#13s out to you today, via USPS, no telling if or when you might ever get them??? But I had them sent!

Cross, yeah, gotta keep an eye out, I change things you know! But, also, I have not got to 416 B&M with updates with TAC or other things yet either, so AA2520 is still top dog with 350s and 325s, but WW748 is better with the 400s.

Shot a bunch of sticks today too.

OH--I busted yet ANOTHER 1.5X5 Leupold today--I Think the first one for the year. On the 475 B&M Super Short. But, I doubt the Super Short busted it, I don't know what it was on before that. But it's busted regardless.

Nikon still holding and the 475 B&M has been getting a workout the last week or so.

Michael


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Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Michael,
I picked up a Winchester WSSM to build a 458 or 50 B&M SS (Just can't make up my mind).
I have been following this post for sometime. But don't recall any information of any with a barrel longer than 16".
Would it be worth going to a 18" ?
I guide bear hunters and it would be used as a tracking gun and my go to bear- pig gun.
 
Posts: 399 | Location: U.P. Michigan- Lk. St.Clair | Registered: 11 February 2011Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by coyote wacker:
Michael,
I picked up a Winchester WSSM to build a 458 or 50 B&M SS (Just can't make up my mind).
I have been following this post for sometime. But don't recall any information of any with a barrel longer than 16".
Would it be worth going to a 18" ?
I guide bear hunters and it would be used as a tracking gun and my go to bear- pig gun.



Hi Coyote!

No, there are no 18 inch barrel Super Shorts here. I seem to recall that someone did an 18 inch Super Short, but I am not sure who it was, and I have not had any data reported back on it, or even if I recall correctly?????

I think if you choose the 50 B&M SS I doubt seriously you would gain very much in that caliber as far as velocity goes. The 458 B&M SS, you might get something out of that 2 inches, being smaller bore diameter it would make better use of the extra length. Worth the extra length and weight? I don't know. Going to 18 would not be a really huge ugly thing, and would not pull too much away from the compact little rifle. Too Much--some for sure.

Either the 50 or 458 would serve pretty good in the capacity you ask of it. And, both have lot's of other cheaper bullets you could shoot and play with. When things get serious, both calibers have some pretty serious bullets you can work with.

Just yesterday I updated the load data on the 50 B&M SS with the new longer nose projections of the 375 and 345 BBW#13s. The longer nose projection not only serves to give better and deeper penetration for the 375 BBW#13 Solid, but it also serves to get more bullet out of the case, more case capacity, lower pressures, more velocity in the end. By seating to the top band, both new nose projections, specifically for the 50 B&M Super Short, I was able to get another 100 fps out of both bullets and stay at max safe pressures. I uploaded the new data last night on the B&M site.

I have yet to have time to look at the 458 B&M SS and do the same with it. The 475 B&M SS had no such afflictions as shorter nose projections as there are no 475 B&M Lever guns in which to worry with. So the nose projections were designed specifically for the 475 B&M Super Short from the beginning.

Hard choices, if I could only have one, I am not sure which one I would choose either! Thank goodness I have some of all three! HEH HEH............ The 50 B&M SS and the 475 B&M SS are going with us to Australia in August, see how they do on those buffalo down under!

When you are ready, anything I can do to help just holler, I have already cut WSM brass, ready to load, dies for all of them from Hornady on the shelves, the load data, and anything else I can do to assist just let me know, be happy to help.















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The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Michael,

Just got off the phone with Brian at SSK, it's been over 30 years sense I've had JD do any work for me.
He said write down what I want box it up and sent it.
I forgot to ask him, is there a bolt modification that can be done because they are brazed. And a better extractor also.
I'am going to go with the 50 B&M SS the reason, the only 50 calibers I have are muzzleloaders. Plus if Michigan ever lets hunters use straight walled cartridges in rifles, in the southern lower peninsula I be able to use it on whitetails.
As far as brass I've got 200 pcs. of 325 WSM, just need to set up the lathe and cut them down.
I will need a set of dies.

Thanks of the offer of assistance it is greatly appreciated.
Craig
 
Posts: 399 | Location: U.P. Michigan- Lk. St.Clair | Registered: 11 February 2011Reply With Quote
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Craig

I am assuming you have the Ultimate Shadow, the control feed gun, large extractor?

There is no bolt modifications needed, and while anything can happen of course, I have never had an issue with the extractors on those guns. I would not do anything with that.

There is a bug in all the super shorts, easy fix, I normally do this, but I will talk to Brian too.

The magazine spring loves to jump the hump in the bottom floor metal during recoil. Of course the WSSMs don't have recoil so it's not an issue with them. Put the 458,475. 50 in there, then the magazine spring moves forward in the bottom metal, and when it jumps the hump feed and function is over with. One can either bend the lip of the spring downward, slide it back in the bottom metal,and most of the time that is enough tension to hold it. On a few, I put the JB Weld to it to keep it from moving, problem over with forever. That's really the only ever bug in those Super Shorts.

You can send me an email with details or PM with details and I can get a set of dies off to you no problems, and any thing else you might need too.

I assume you have been over to the B&M website? General Load data is in a pdf format, you can down load it from there. It has the best and most common loads on it, but most certainly not all. I Have pages upon top of pages of data on all the B&Ms.

My role is to help and assist you in your venture and to make sure you are happy with it, my name is on it, so in the end I have a great responsibility to assist in any manner I can, and I am happy to do so. You are going to love it. I called and spoke to Brian yesterday to get his ass in gear on my 19 inch 500 MDM, I am taking it to Africa with the new Raptors, he is waiting on the guy to finish the gunkote this week and will be on the way next week. Good timing, as I understand the new 400 Raptors will be here tomorrow! When I spoke to him there was 8 B&Ms being built by other folks, I know one of the guys and it's a 50 Super Short too. The rest I don't know, but we are going to have to get another die order going for sure!

Michael


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The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Michael

When you have the time-whats the story on the Guncote? Are you using it primarily for corrosion resistance or instead of blueing? It looks like a neat product, but why do you like it?

SSR
 
Posts: 6725 | Location: central Texas | Registered: 05 August 2010Reply With Quote
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Cross

Well as I understand the gunkote finish is corrosion resistant as good as stainless. The guy that is doing it for SSK is doing a damn good job. I had a blue action, 500 MDM, wanted stainless, he put the stainless finish gunkote on it, and its been great, zero issues. The thing about the gunkote is when it first comes it takes some working in, I suppose the stuff gets on everything and makes things tight. Once it wears in, the guns slick up as good as anything I have ever worked with.

All of that is just an added benefit. I like the matte finish on the black, just looks like serious business. I have a new 50 and a new 475 up there now, both are slated to be gunkoted, and 2 XXX Claros matching being done right now. Figure I will have one black gunkote rifle in every cartridge and a stainless one as well! Or 3, maybe 4 in some cartridges! LOL...............

M


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The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Cross

This is actually a gunkote finished action, barrel band front site, and stainless barrel.



This is a matte black 9.3 B&M with gunkote



The 500 MDM top, and the 458 B&M bottom are both gunkote finish.



http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Michael

Those look great--

Question for all then

How about a guncote in matt black for the action and sites and a stainless barrel--in a hillbilly camp stock?

I kinda like the concept :hillbilly:

SSR
 
Posts: 6725 | Location: central Texas | Registered: 05 August 2010Reply With Quote
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Michael,
I'am glad you posted the pic's with the Guncote. Going to have Brian put it on my sights, I thought he used SSK Khrome on the sights you had done.
Just got done boxing it up to ship out tomorrow. Hope to get it before the end of May for a bear hunt.
 
Posts: 399 | Location: U.P. Michigan- Lk. St.Clair | Registered: 11 February 2011Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by coyote wacker:
Michael,
I'am glad you posted the pic's with the Guncote. Going to have Brian put it on my sights, I thought he used SSK Khrome on the sights you had done.
Just got done boxing it up to ship out tomorrow. Hope to get it before the end of May for a bear hunt.



Coyote

All those "Stainless" colored barrel bands are gunkote finished.

Even under normal circumstances I would think end of May would be easy--But I would let it be known to Brian that you want it for that bear hunt. I have your dies ready to go as well, get the load data down and see what bullet you want to use for bear--I have some suggestions on that too! HEH........

Dies might be a day or so before sending--I want to get a few other things ready to send out Fed Ex, if you don't mind. I am not sending anything out USPS anymore, too many things get lost and never show up.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Michael,
I'am in no hurry for the dies, I haven't sat down at the lathe and trimmed any brass yet.
I was thinking because I 'am going to use 325 WSM brass should I have Brian put 325-50 B & M SS. When JD made my 375 JDJ I had him put 444-375 JDJ, because I used 444 Marlin brass. But that was 30 year ago.
As far as bullets 50 caliber is virgin territory, I have nothing on the shelf. In Alberta the spring hunt 300lbs. is common, but close to 500lbs. is possible. This year I'am holding out for a color phase or nothing. I've got to many black mounts and rugs.

Crsig
 
Posts: 399 | Location: U.P. Michigan- Lk. St.Clair | Registered: 11 February 2011Reply With Quote
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Craig

Last week I did new load data on a bullet, and I have you covered, no worries!

Yes, I would have the barrel marked 325/50 BM Super Short.

Barrel Length--Canada??? Better check that quickly, I think it's 18 inches!!!!! If you are going to Canada with it, make the rifle 18 inches.

I am pretty sure sure on the Canada barrel length, I was concerned about my 18 inch 416 B&M, as it is 18 inches, and you never know if those guys know how to measure things--but it was fine.

I think you need to do 18 inches for Canada.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by michael458:
Craig

Last week I did new load data on a bullet, and I have you covered, no worries!

Yes, I would have the barrel marked 325/50 BM Super Short.

Barrel Length--Canada??? Better check that quickly, I think it's 18 inches!!!!! If you are going to Canada with it, make the rifle 18 inches.

I am pretty sure sure on the Canada barrel length, I was concerned about my 18 inch 416 B&M, as it is 18 inches, and you never know if those guys know how to measure things--but it was fine.

I think you need to do 18 inches for Canada.

Michael


Michael,
That was close!!! Had the gun boxed up, was going to sent it out today.

When I find out I will post it and make a copy to have with me for customs.

Thanks Craig
 
Posts: 399 | Location: U.P. Michigan- Lk. St.Clair | Registered: 11 February 2011Reply With Quote
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Michael,
It looks like I will see what the velocity will be with a 19" barrel on a 325-50 B&M Super Short.

Here's the short of it on long guns in Canada:

Non-restricted firearms include:

* semi-automatic rifles and shotguns with barrels that are at least 470 mm (18.5 inches) long, and do not otherwise fall into a restricted or prohibited category; and
* single-shot or manual repeating rifles and shotguns of any length, as long as they are not designed or adapted to be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660 mm (26 inches) by folding, telescoping or other means.

Prohibited firearms include:

* handguns with barrels less than or equal to 105 mm (4.14 inches) long;
* handguns designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32-calibre cartridge;
* firearms adapted from rifles or shotguns by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, that, when adapted in this way, are less than 660 mm (26 inches) long or have a barrel that is less than 457 mm (18.5 inches) long;
* automatic firearms, whether or not altered to fire in the manner of a semi-automatic firearm; and
* firearms prohibited by regulation

Craig
 
Posts: 399 | Location: U.P. Michigan- Lk. St.Clair | Registered: 11 February 2011Reply With Quote
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Coyote

Well, OK, Damn! 19 inches! You will have the first one I suppose! That will put it about 39 inches overall. Still not too bad I suppose, but a standard 50 B&M is only about 1/2 inch longer! But, that is with an 18, and if you go 19, that's another inch added. What's the matter with Canadians you reckon?

If you are going to Canada with it, I reckon better safe than sorry!

Let's hope we get something out of that extra 3 inches! Maybe?

Gonna look funny! HEH.......

Michael


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The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Congrats coyote wacker! beer

quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
Coyote
Well, OK, Damn! 19 inches! ...
Gonna look funny! HEH.......

Michael


Nah, it will be beautiful. My .458 B&M has a 19.75" barrel and it is quite beauteous.
All in the eye of the beholder, though beauty is as beauty does, according to some beholders:
 
Posts: 27345 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Yeah, I don't know what I am laughing about concerning the 19 inch guns! I am headed to Africa in a couple of weeks to do some shooting, and BOTH MY Rifles have "19 Inch Barrels" Hmmmmm?????
9.3 B&M and 500 MDM. How about that? Now what?

The moose was shot with a 50 B&M. Great B&M fan John Hauldy has two of the 50 Super Shorts. He sent one of his up to his pal in Alaska about a year ago for him to play with. So far this fellow carries his every step he makes. Shot a moose. Last year he shot a Mt Goat of all things, with it. I don't think John is going to get it back.

Off to the range.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
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