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416-458-50 SS-50 B&M Series Cartridges/Rifles

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06 May 2009, 18:04
michael458
416-458-50 SS-50 B&M Series Cartridges/Rifles
Jeffe says now that we have head stamped brass and die readily available we are no longer "wildcats". So with that line of thought I wanted to get the B&M series of big bores where I think they belong, and the fact that I finally put enough effort in to learn how to put photos on AR so all could see.

This series are all built on Winchester M70s. Most that know me, knows how I feel about a Winchester--for me it's Winchester or nothing. Now that is just me and does not mean other rifles are not suitable.

The 416 B&M, 458 BM, 50 B&M are 2.25 inch cases made from RUM. 50 B&M is .500 caliber, cut and trim the case and start loading. 458 and 416 are the same case squeezed down. Case capacity is the same as a 458 Winchester. One might ask Why? Here is the why--the platform the cartridge is based on. I wanted something shorter, lighter, handier, but it still had to have enough power to do the job asked of it! These guns are built on Winchester M70 WSM actions, all control feed. The 50 B&M is standard with 18 inch barrel--458 and 416 can go to 18 inch barrels or 20 inch barrels. My first 458 and 416 version had 20 inch barrels, my feeling was that with the smaller caliber I would need 20. However in 458 B&M I tried an 18 inch barrel and only lost around 10 fps per inch with most loads, and with some no loss. Later a 416 B&M in 18 inch showed more loss of velocity from 30-40 fps per inch. Some loads in 416 lost nearly nothing. So for my purposes I will use the 18 inch guns. Depending on the stock the rifles come in at 6.5-8 lbs. Overall length of the 18 inch guns is 38.5 inches. This makes a dandy handy package to carry in the field all day! As opposed to my standard carry Winchester M70 with 24 inch barrels at 9-10 lbs!
It makes a hell of a difference through the day.

The 50 B&M is capable of a 510 gr bullet at 2100 fps, 470 gr bullet at 2200 fps, and a 426 gr bullet at 2300 fps.



The 458 B&M is capable of a 500 gr bullet at 2150 fps, 450s from 2250 fps, 400s at 2350 fps, 350s at 2450 fps, and 300s at 2650 fps.




The 416 B&M is capable of 400s at 2300 fps, 350s at 2450 fps, 300s at 2700 fps.



The 50 B&M Super Short is another .500 caliber cartridge but it is built on a Winchester M70 WSSM action, control feed, 16.25 inch barrel. The cartridge is made from any WSM case cut and trimmed to 1.65 inches. Want to talk about a handy fun little gun!!!!! At 6.25 lbs, and overall length of 36 inches it is equal in size to a Marlin Guide gun.

The 50 B&M Super Short is capable of shooting 300 gr Hornady at 2425 fps, 325 Barnes at 2300 fps, 375 Barnes at 2075 fps, 385 Rem at 2125 fps, 400 gr bullets at 2000 fps, 450s at 1850 fps and 500s at 1700 fps.



In addition to the M70s I have one 416 B&M, 458 B&M and 50 B&M built on a Winchester M1885 Single Shots. I also have an affection for them.

Another addition that is coming soon is the 9.3 B&M, same case squeezed down 1 more time, same Win M70 WSM action, has to be a 20 inch barrel I figure. Will begin work on it in a couple months I think.

I also have a thing for lever guns and while I will mention it here along with the B&M series, it really should be in the lever gun section I think. Liking .500 caliber I took a normal 50 Alaskan case and squeezed it down to .500 caliber. The guns are Win M71s and Marlin Guide guns, both with 18 inch barrels. One of the main reasons for this gun is the 500 gr Hornady. Lot's of test work with this bullet both on the range and in the field it is well proven at 2000 fps or better! The 50 B&M Alaskan can run that 500 gr Hornady at 2000 fps.



I can load photos of rifles next, but I hope I have the photos correct. I am going to look pretty silly if the photos are out of arrangement, eh?

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 18:07
michael458
Well looks like I didn't do something right, all the photos don't load up on my screen! Maybe too much for one post????

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 18:19
michael458
OK let me try some of the rifles.


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 18:20
michael458



http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 18:21
michael458



http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 18:23
michael458



http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 18:24
michael458



http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 18:26
michael458



http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 18:28
michael458



http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 18:31
michael458



http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 18:32
michael458



http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 18:32
michael458



http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 20:09
Woodrow S
Are any of these rifles going to be for sale any time soon? Who built your rifles, both bolts and leverguns?
06 May 2009, 20:17
tiggertate
That is a very well thought-out family of cartriges. You have given the WSM and WSSM actions final justification for their existence!

Does the 50 SS headspace on the case mouth?


"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson.
06 May 2009, 20:24
michael458
Woodrow

SSK Industries builds all my rifles,bolts, singles, levers whatever. The rifles in the photos are my personal rifles. I did build some spec guns and have them on hand. I have the dies, brass and all the load data on hand too. Not to be advertising, that is not my intent. Also I am NOT in the gun business. In addition you may contact SSK Direct too. Anyone interested can contact me direct too.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 20:28
michael458
Thanks tigger, I appreciate.

As for headspace of the straight 50s, in a sense yes they do and no they do not headspace on the mouth??? You see if using a CONTROL FEED rifle, the cartridge cannot go any further into the chamber than the EXTRACTOR will allow it to! So the extractor in this case holds the 50s in place. To prove this one can shoot the 50 Super Short in the 50 B&M rifles 100%-accuracy is not too good however with the 1.65 inch case, a lot of bullet jump! But I have done it many times to prove the point shooting the 1.65 inch case in the 2.25 inch chamber. Headspace is therefore controlled by the extractor in the 50s.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 20:39
jeffeosso
Congrats, Michael!
Man, it takes years and tears to get to this point.

IT IS SWEET!


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
Order AR/AccRel Brass
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
06 May 2009, 20:51
tiggertate
quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
Thanks tigger, I appreciate.

As for headspace of the straight 50s, in a sense yes they do and no they do not headspace on the mouth??? You see if using a CONTROL FEED rifle, the cartridge cannot go any further into the chamber than the EXTRACTOR will allow it to! So the extractor in this case holds the 50s in place. To prove this one can shoot the 50 Super Short in the 50 B&M rifles 100%-accuracy is not too good however with the 1.65 inch case, a lot of bullet jump! But I have done it many times to prove the point shooting the 1.65 inch case in the 2.25 inch chamber. Headspace is therefore controlled by the extractor in the 50s.

Michael


Thanks for the reply. I know whereof you speak about that; I have a Swede 9.3x62 that was fed a steady diet of 9.3x57 in a past life. I assume the fellow didn't reload, lol.


"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson.
06 May 2009, 21:06
michael458
Jeffe
Thanks buddy! Takes a while, for the folks at home Jeffe and I started about the same time frame as I calculate on our separate project in 2005. I think thats when you started, eh?

I have the rifles and cartridges under control, now if I could just get all the photos loaded here correct!! LOL

Tigger

You are more than welcome. I am very anxious to get responses on the rifles. Thank you.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
06 May 2009, 23:08
Hog Killer
Michael, what is the weight difference between the 71 and the GG in 50 Alaskan?

Keith


IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!!
------------------------------------
We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club
06 May 2009, 23:22
michael458
Hey Keith

The M71 is 7.5 lbs and the Marlin is 6.5 lbs, so 1 lb.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
07 May 2009, 05:50
gumboot458
... WOW ... Do you have any bullet jump problems with the 50,s ... Why didn't you come up with these 25 years ago so I could have been using them ..... Smiler... It is pretty hard to verbalize how amazing I think this is .....


.If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined ....
07 May 2009, 09:23
Hog Killer
quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
Hey Keith

The M71 is 7.5 lbs and the Marlin is 6.5 lbs, so 1 lb.

Michael


Looks like nothing another 6" of barrel and a full lenght mag tube can't fix. stir hilbily

In a 71 or '86.

Keith


IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!!
------------------------------------
We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club
07 May 2009, 10:37
FOOBAR
Thanks Michael...you just solved one of my problems...I wasn't thinking far enough outside the envelope.

Beautiful shooters!!!! Eeker

But I do have one M96 Swede I could use possibly or a VZ-24 M98 that is now a 9.3x62 that would make a nice switchbarrel.

What pressures are the 50 B&M running at the velocities you posted?

What about load data for the 50 B&M?

Where do I purchase the dies and how much?

Is there enough case mouth so it would work in a Ruger or other non CRF/pushfeed mauser clone?

And what is the H2O case volume?

Thanks


I've been wanting to do a 510 "something". Was just about to do a 500 AR but kept running into snags finding Rigby cases. Had the Savage receiver bolthead milled to fit the Rigby, the feed perfect using AL dummies I made and was just waiting to find the brass before I ordered the barrel and dies.

Thought about the RUM case several times over the past couple years for other projects, but the receivers I wanted to use are all push feeds.

You just made it possible and highly probably again, as I had just about shelved ANY 510 project for this year.

Totally far out Dude!!!! Cool clap
jumping

Enjoy your toys.
07 May 2009, 15:41
michael458
Gumboot458

Thanks I am delighted you like them. Never any issues with bullet jump-even with very heavy loads. Well 25 yrs ago I was busy trying to build a business, make some money so that one day I could play, not to mention I was too stupid when I was that age! Being a 458 guy, you should like the little 458 pretty good???

Hog

Don't go adding weight now, the purpose is carrying these things all day long without issues.

FooBar

Thanks.
The heaviest loads run around 60000 psi and are 100% safe.

I have reams of load data available to anyone that wants it.

I have dies on hand. Dies are available for all of them from Hornady and or RCBS.

Yes there is enough case mouth to work in push feed guns, or single shots like the Ruger #1 or the Win 1885. I have 1885. All you have to do is be careful of your case length, but I have never had any issues, and I am not so careful, and most of the time mine are short of full length.

Case volume H2O is around 95 I think. Normal loads are 70-78 grs powder.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
07 May 2009, 16:02
michael458
I did forget to mention that if you want to just take a look at some load data all the cartridges are listed over on ammoguide.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
07 May 2009, 18:08
michael458
Below is a Win M70 458 Winchester 24 inch barrel on top---458 B&M 18 inch barrel below.



http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
07 May 2009, 19:36
tiggertate
Let's see...how big is the bolt in a mini MKX? A 50SS single-stack feed in a 4.5 lb rifle. That's what I'm talking about!


"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson.
07 May 2009, 19:39
Dentist
Hi Michael,

very nice collection!!!

These are the handiest big bore rifles I have

ever seen. Beautyful !

Must be really satisfying to knock some eles or

buffs with a selfdeveloped cartidge/ gun combo.

My favourite is the black 16" 50 B&M super

short. Congratulation!
07 May 2009, 22:00
FOOBAR
Thanks again Michael.

Is there ANY case taper at all???

If none or very little taper I might be able to fudge the chamber out to a case length of 2.50" and still use the 50 B&M dies. That was my original thoughts for "MY-OWN" WSM/RUM based cartridge, 375 to 50 cal.

Not that the extra length would do much, I was thinking more of designing a WSM/RUM based cartridge case for use in the SMLE, Ruger or mauser (clone) with a mag box between 2.8" to 3.2" COAL. Larger case volume to get good velo with lower pressures more for the SMLE pressure limits.

Jumped off the horse in the middle of the stream and got soaked, didn't I. thumbdown

Nothing new under the Sun hardly is there???? Smiler

Reincarnation of the 50 Alaskan sans rim.

I wonder if you could actually set up the 50 B&M chamber headspace to shoot both, not that there is any reason to or anyone would . Just a passing brain phawwt.

I have a Old Ruger Tang action "switch barrel" using a locknut like Savage, now a 416 Taylor, but also have 7mm-08 and 308 barrels for it, and a 338Fed/358W/375-08??? barrel project on the "todo" list. The 50B&M would make an excellent additional "swap-pin" for that platform, with or without a locknut.

I've been thinking about this all night and I don't have a clue why I didn't look at the headspacing on the mouth. It just never crossed my mind even though I've shot 45 ACP and other cartridges that headspace on the mouth all my life... Mad Roll Eyes. Would someone else kick me for a while...my leg's are getting tired. knife lol

REAMERS...any available for renting???

Thanks again. This is like having the winning ticket, loosing it, then finding it again. Hahahahah. The first rounds are on me if we ever meet, AND a big steak dinner.

Luck on your projects.
07 May 2009, 23:09
michael458
Tigger

Sounds interesting, but beyond my area of expertise. Worth taking a look at.

Dentist

Thanks so much, I appreciate it.

They are handy, you really can't know how much so until you get your hands on them. A world of difference between a normal big bore rifle and these guns.

I have done more field work with the 50 B&M than all the rest combined. It had the most to prove. You see we had to come up with proper .500 caliber bullets to do elephant and buffalo.
It is very satisfying. To date the 50 B&M has taken two elephant and 5 cape buffalo, and many zebra, wildebeast, kudu, eland, impala, hartebeast, 1 giraffe, griz bear, and probably some more I forgot at the moment. It has done far better than even I expected. My boys have used the 416 B&M for a few things, and I shot 1 buff with the 416 B&M. I have not even used the 458 B&M for anything yet, but I have lot's of experience with 458 Win and 458 Lott--the bullet does not know what it is being shot out of, so I have been holding the 458 B&M until this september and I am taking one to Australia to shoot a few of their buffalo, along with the 500 MDM.

The little 50 B&M Super Short is a hoot! While it is not an elephant gun by any stretch, it makes one hell of a pig and bear gun!

FOOBAR

Yes there is taper in the 50s. The 50 B&M exceeds a 50 Alaskan by a good margin. As for your question about shooting both in the same gun, I don't think so.

As for your old Ruger--I don't see why not!

As for the reamers, well I am not going to do that, I don't have them anyway, and Brian and JD at SSK has been so good to me I let them keep and use the reamers. It sounds to me like you have a particular project, I would call and talk to Brian about it and let him sort it out.

As for the headspace, don't forget the control feed, and even wit 45 ACP--think 1911 style handguns (headspace on the mouth???) not in a 1911, that extractor has control of that case, cannot go any further than the extractor will allow it to go!

You are welcome. Thank you!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
08 May 2009, 00:18
boom stick
A supershort version of the 500 Cyrus would be kinda fun... A 1.8" case with a 2.35 OAL should give the same capacity as the 50 B&M for a supershort elephant gun.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
08 May 2009, 02:08
michael458
Boom

Well that's a thought, but I would just as soon burn in hell before doing that! rotflmo

OK let's say you could get that to work in a super short WSSM action to begin with. Maybe you gain a 1/2 inch at most. I think shortness in this case would be more of a function of barrel length with this case capacity (80 grs or so powder) regardless of B&M case or some off brand other wanna be thing!

There is a loss of velocity in the 50 B&M going down from 18 to 17 and 16 inches. More of a loss than I am willing to do. 18 inches is near perfect--nothing to be gained by 20 inches, some gains at 22 inches. So I still think you need that 18 inches of barrel to burn that powder efficiently. A friend of mine has built a 17 inch gun (he had to have a muzzle break) but did not want more length. This is the only gun built with a muzzle break. I have been getting it ready for him and there is a loss. The 510 gr bullets are down to around 2050 fps. Still enough to do the job, but going to 16 would be getting out of my circle of comfort. So to be honest I don't think you could gain anything with the "off brand" .500!


Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
08 May 2009, 02:19
michael458
Boom

Take a look at that little 18 inch stainless 50 B&M, 510 gr solids at a touch over 2100 fps, can penetrate elephant skull from any angle completely, drive thru at least 7 ft of elephant body and it weighs 8 lbs (wood stock) is 38.5 inches overall length. I don't think there is much to improve on there, that is super short ele rifle!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
08 May 2009, 03:00
Dentist
Michael,

even 18" are perfect and so handy but why I tell you this. Definitely nothing to improve. Hope you don`t feel boring now.

My lott on cz base still has the original barrel and looks like a clobby truck in comparison to your porsche. But you can always cut it offWink. What is the shortest barrel length from your experience with the .458 lott for buff/ ele that brings enough penetration?

If you wouldn`t go to test your .458B&M by yourself on aussi buffs I would have loved to help you...I would definitely use it and will keep the 50 B&M in my mind when the lott starts getting boring but that will take a longer time. Have a great time down under!
08 May 2009, 03:29
michael458
Dentist

I have a few 45 Lotts (Winchesters). My standard load with a 500 Barnes FN Solid does 2275 from a 24 inch barrel. I cut a couple rifles from 24 to 22 inches. I lost 80 fps in the two inches, of course if that trend continues to 18 inches (-6") then that same load would be 2035 fps. With the 500 Barnes FLAT NOSE solid that is enough velocity to penetrate anything you would need to penetrate, as it comes down to the proper function of the bullet itself. Now all barrels are not created equal! I say this because I had the opportunity to deal with a friends CZ with as I recall a 25 inch barrel. I figured velocity of the same load would go UP! WRONG-in fact the 25 inch barrel on that CZ would only give 2160 fps with the same load that the 24 inch Win was giving 2275 fps. If you started chopping that barrel off then you would be nearly down in 45/70 territory, which is getting out of my comfort zone for what the intended purpose is. So really has a lot to do with the individual barrel--and even more to do with the bullet itself. Even still, would be longer and heavier than a B&M!

As for 458 caliber--the 458 B&M is by far at its best for the heavies with the 450 gr Barnes FN Solid. It can drive that to 2250 fps, which is plenty, even could do much less at 2150 and it would do extremely well. The 500 Barnes FN is too long for the short case, I can get a bit over 2000 fps with the 500 but run totally out of capacity at that point. 500 Woodleigh Soft Points, and Hornady are no issues at all to get to 2150 fps, even with 18 inches of barrel. Several great combinations work fine, my favorite and the one I will use most in Australia this year is the 450 Swift A/450 Barnes FN, both at a bit over 2200 fps! Of course I will be playing with a few other things too. Currently I have 20 buff to play with so both the 500MDM and the little 458 B&M should get a workout.

Thanks

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
08 May 2009, 04:28
Dentist
OK, I was wrong: you will not feel boring.

20 buff-There is enough room for testing shocker. Would love to hear about the results. You will have a great time.

Interesting what you wrote about your friend`s CZ. Thanks for your always very informative replies!
08 May 2009, 04:53
michael458
Dentist

I only get bored if I am not shooting something! This is why I don't fish and I am retired from leopard hunting!

I don't know about informative, I have very little experience with a CZ.

You are always welcome.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
08 May 2009, 04:58
michael458
But if I was a leopard hunter I would be shooting one of those 50 B&M Super Shorts with the 385 Remington at 2125 fps! One of my buds over here in SC shot 9 hogs from 150-250 lbs last fall with this load--9 hogs--9 shots--dropped on the spot! No need for second shots, even if you wanted to. Stone cold dead!

This would make a super leopard slayer!

But that is not nor never will be a job for me, someone else can play that game with my 50, I have been there done that for way too long!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
08 May 2009, 05:16
jeffeosso
Michael,
the AR's (416-470)'s birthday is 10/12/05 and I shot them ALL, and so did hogkiller, on 12/31/05 ... like 80 days from conception to shooting!

I had thought of the basis for the 500 AR abotu 2 years before that.. but never really moved it along until late 06/early 07.

Man, these things take awhile!


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
Order AR/AccRel Brass
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com