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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
The 458 Winchester Magnum has nothing wrong with it.

It performs just like all the old cartridges it was supposed to replace.

But, today there are many cartridges that are better than it.



So simply put it is brilliant.
 
Posts: 485 | Location: Baltimore, MD | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by stradling:
This is a repost from african hunter

authored by bad boy melvin

well worth the read and for my vote spot on COULDN'T A SAID IT BETTER MYSELF

QUOTE

Here is a short article I wrote a while ago and I thought I'd post it for you to have a look at.


Why I no longer defend the .458 Winchester Magnum.

For more years than I can remember I have been an staunch fan of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Always have been, always will be and it is my personal favourite amongst the current crops of big bores.
But I have to state right now that I hold no sort of caliber racism. I have owned a few big caliber rifles, a .375H&H, .375 Weatherby and two .458's and loved them all.
I like the .458 Lott and I love the .404. I also like the various .416's and would own and stake my life on any of the above. It's just that the poor old .458 still cops a bashing whenever it's mentioned and the old girl just doesn't deserve it. It's a throughly capable caliber and a hunter using one can comfortably stake his life on it hunting any animal that walks the earth.
Having owned 2 rifles chambered for the .458WM at least I can speak from experience (even of it is somewhat limited) about the round.
I have not been able to fault either rifle and I have never experienced any problems when reloading the .458.
Despite all the positive experiences I've had with the .458 Winchester Magnum I can now no longer defend it.

Why not?

Because there's no point. I'm sick of getting into arguments with people!
People either don't listen - or they've already made up their mind about the .458 Winchester. I end up just getting frustrated, so now I don't really bother.
Instead of arguing about the .458 Winchester magnum I'm going to go out with mine and shoot big animals with it!
"Its poorly designed"
"It was all there was at the time"
"Lacks penetration"
"Too slow"
"Not powerful enough"
"Not enough case capacity"
"Caked powder and poor bullets"
"At least in a magnum length action it can be converted to the Lott"

Heard 'em all and to be honest I'm just tired of it... and I don't agree with any of the above.
(Well, except the poor bullets. In the day some of the bullets were shockers. Blew apart and were undersized.. true sick leave material.)

I have no shares or stakes in Winchester. I had no part in the design of the .458. I didn't invent the round, so if people choose to use or not use it, it's of no consequence to me. My feelings aren't going to get hurt, BUT, what does get me upset is when someone, usually someone new to Big Bores, buys a perfectly good rifle in .458 and then converts to the Lott - usually without even firing the rifle first! They buy a perfectly capable round and then convert it and all because 'experts' tell them that it HAS to be converted to the Lott for it to be effective on DG. Or to make it reliable. Or because some of ammo that was manufactured 50+ ago was suspect!!
That'd be me like me saying "yeah, I drove a Chrysler 50 years and because of a bad experience I'll never drive one again!!"
I'll be honest and say that I just don't get that kind of reasoning.

To put it in perspective, how many people buy a .30-06 for deer/ elk and then without firing it, get it converted to .30-06 Ackley Improved? Or buy a .300 Win Mag and then instantly get it converted to .300 Weatherby? Not too many that I've met.

Now don't get me wrong, if someone wants a Ackley, or a Weatherby, or a Lott then that's great. Good luck with your rifle and I'm sure that it'll serve you well.
BUT, if someone buys one because they feel that the original cartridges aren't up to the task - because they were told (or read something online) by an 'expert' that says they're not, that's a real shame.

As far as the .458 stories go, the most prevalent one is in regards to the caked powder/ squib loads that the .458 is famous (or is that infamous) for.
Now, to say this didn't happen is a lie. It did and I have no doubt that it got many a person in serious trouble... or worse.
The most common cause I hear for this is because of 'compressed ball powder' that glues together under the African heat and doesn't ignite properly.
The funny thing is that according to Winchester the original rounds WERE NOT loaded with ball powder! Winchester only changed to ball powder in the .458 some time in the late ‘70s or early ‘80s and this FIXED the problem! Before then, the .458 was loaded with a cylindrical, short-grain double-base powder.

A gentleman by the name of Georg Grohmann also wrote about this in detail. He wrote a great article while working up loads for his .458 and quoting;
"But contrary to popular belief in certain quarters, old (1970s) Winchester ammo was not loaded with ball powder, but with a small-log, cylindrical, double base powder. None of the cartridges I had for testing contained compressed powder, neither was it caked. It was, however, cemented by chemical action. There were also undersize bullets. The end results were, in some cases, disastrous. Not only were velocities much reduced (as low as 1856 fps in my tests) but there were both hang fires and misfires! But it was NOT ball powder, neither was it compressed! There was about 1 mm of space between powder and bullet in the solid loads and about 2 mm in the softpoint loads. It was a short-grain, cylindrical, extruded double-base powder, resembling IMR 4320 in shape and size. (IMR powders are single-base, of course)."

Not good, not good at all, but also NOT due to caked ball powder. He goes on to further write;

"As for ball powder ‘caking’ in compressed loads, this is another very persistent story. All I can say here is that I have been loading Win/Olin 748 ball powder in my .458 since October 1974. In unfired cases, my standard load is slightly compressed, yet I have never had a problem. In 2002, in order to check up on this, I disassembled some .458/748 loads, which I had put together in 1982! There was a little clumping of the powder, but no more than in cartridges I checked six months after loading. These rounds were re-assembled and then chronographed together with some cartridges, which had not been disturbed. Average MV was 2060 fps, exactly the same as what I got in 1982, when I checked some of the same batch of reloads."

So why then the bad performance of the .458 years and years ago?
Well let's see, there's the stick powder having a chemical reaction and clumping together - even though it wasn't compressed, the original 'solids' blowing apart and being undersize. The production line spilling powder from the empty shells before the bullet was seated. (Yes this really happened and Winchester documented it!!)
The 'glue' that held the bullet in place (yes, some companies glued the bullets in place) leaked in the case and interfered with the proper combustion of the powder.
These problems have been fixed (decades ago!!) and it's a testament to the round's reliable performance on game that it's still so popular.

What about the stories I hear about the .458 being not powerful enough for the really big stuff, like elephant? Well, I've never shot an elephant and unless I win the lottery I probably never will. But I do own a chronograph. And I know that a 500gr bullet at between 2050 - 2200 fps will kill any elephant under any condition. I know this because even though I've never shot an elephant, Grobler, Harland, Aagaard, Duckworth and Thomson have. Around 20,000 actually and all with the 458wm.
And I also know that today, it's no problem to drive a 500gr bullet at these speeds, without super compressing (not that I think compressed loads are bad) or without sky high pressure.
In fact the ADI loading manual lists the following STARTING loads for the .458 (in a 24" barrel) with the 500gr bullet, 70grs of AR2208 (Varget) for 2050fps and 70grs of AR 2206H (H4895) for 2070fps.
These starting loads are as powerful as the factory ammo that culled 20,000 elephants, yet are not compressed and are very mild pressure wise. The .458 would probably be the most popular big bore here in Australia for hunting water buffalo and the such, and I'll tell you, in summertime up the Northern Territory, it gets as hot up there as anywhere in Africa. The loads that are listed in Australian manuals with Aussie ADI powders show that speeds up to 2205fps are possible (74grs AR2206H) without excess pressure and the N.T is where they are field tested.
I don't think that 2050 - 2200fps is to slow for anything that a .458 caliber rifle would be used on. It compares very favourably to the .470 Nitro and would probably surpasses it if the .470 was chronographed in the more realistic 24- 26" barrel instead of the usual 28+" the .470 is usually credited with. Even if the .470 was 50fps or so quicker than the .458 the .458 has a higher S.D when both are fired with 500gr bullets. So on game they would be pretty much identical... except that the .458 can do it in a standard action - not a magnum. This is why I think that the .458 Winchester Magnum ISN'T a poorly designed round. Nitro performance out of a .30-06 sized action. What's not to like?

But what if you do have a .458 in a Magnum sized action like I do with my CZ550 Safari Magnum?
Well according to the experts it simply makes sense to convert it to the Lott and it's a pretty cheap conversion. Well not getting it done is cheaper again!
One can load to an OAL of 3.8 in the CZ and all you need is a Lee Factory Crimp Die. They're about $15-20! At this OAL they are the same length as the Lott and have the same case capacity. That means in a CZ, they're pretty much the same thing.
The original load that was recommended to me for my CZ taking advantage of the longer action was the 550gr Woodleigh and 74grs of AR2206. This load gives 2100 fps and over 5300 ft/lbs of energy. There wouldn't be many situations where this would be lacking for dangerous game.
(Although I must admit now, I favour the lighter non-con bullets over the 500-550gr nowadays, CEB, Northforks and Woodleigh Hydro's)
So before converting it to the Lott, why not just seat the bullets out deeper in the .458 Winchester and see how you go? Brass and components are cheaper and factory ammo is a lot more common. I know that WM ammo can be used in the Lott but if you're going to use factory ammo, I'd just use the WM as is. And remember that factory ammo culled all those elephant years ago...

A lot of people buy a Lott and load it down to the the proven standard 480-500gr bullet at 2150fps. This is a sound idea as it is about ideal for DG and also lessens recoil quite a bit. Pressure would also be very low to boot. But one can also load the WM to this velocity and stay under pressure. And really, under pressure is under pressure. As long as it's under all will be fine. Personally I would not consider to re chamber my rifle to another caliber that essentially does the same thing but with 5000psi less pressure. Especially when both are under max anyway.
The .458 of today is a totally different kettle of fish to the one 50 odd years ago. All the horror stories that rightly or wrongly dogged the cartridge, such as squib loads, not enough velocity, to high pressure, not enough case capacity are just that. Ancient stories now.

Another thing that can't be underestimated is recoil. The .458 has plenty of it as it is!
A lot of people find the jump up from the WM to the Lott, Ackley, etc.. just to much. In fact a lot of people find the WM to much and are better off with a .375. Recoil is just one of those things.. it means different things to different people. But I think that we can all agree that for hunting, one MUST be able to shoot their rifle well and one MUST not be scared of it and flinch. Flinching causes wounded game, which in turn causes pain and suffering for the animal and potential danger for the hunter - especially when the big 5 are in question.

I will always stand by the statement that on game, the .458WM will do ANYTHING anyone could want in a .458 bore.
Modern powders and bullets have made it better than ever and if the .458WM of 2014 isn't a dangerous game caliber, then nothing else is either.
Having said that I totally understand why someone would want something different.
.416's, .470's, .404's.. I mean why not? They all work. They're all fun. Go for it!

So this is why I no longer defend about the .458 Winchester Magnum.

I don't need to.

It has probably killed more dangerous game than any other cartridge and is now beyond criticism.
People like Don Heath and Craig Boddington, who previously, were very outspoken about their dislike of the .458 have now called a truce with it. Why? Because there is nothing to criticise.. and there hasn't been for some time. Don Heath states that today there is nothing wrong with the .458 and Craig Boddington credits the .458 "as the gun that saved Africa".
But I think that Craig sums up the .458 nicely with the following post;
"Even though (years ago) Winchester boldly dropped the .458 Winchester Magnum, it needs to stay. It is still the least expensive option for a true big bore, and despite the current popularity of .458-bashing, it is absolutely adequate for the world’s largest game."

And I couldn't agree more.


Thanks for the compliment! tu2


You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life...
 
Posts: 160 | Location: Melbourne, Australia  | Registered: 19 August 2013Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by stradling:
[QUOTE]Another thing that can't be underestimated is recoil. The .458 has plenty of it as it is!
A lot of people find the jump up from the WM to the Lott, Ackley, etc.. just to much. In fact a lot of people find the WM to much and are better off with a .375. Recoil is just one of those things.. it means different things to different people. But I think that we can all agree that for hunting, one MUST be able to shoot their rifle well and one MUST not be scared of it and flinch. Flinching causes wounded game, which in turn causes pain and suffering for the animal and potential danger for the hunter - especially when the big 5 are in question.


Well badboymelvin it is for me--- to my mind-- spot on


Recoil ---- this is the part that I never hear the lott guys EFFECTIVELY address

If god ever allowed me to go back to darwin,if the gunsmoke safari guy would even take me on, to clean a couple hundred blacks out of the swamp, I would take my culling 458 wm and 500 plus rounds of "shootable yet effective" buffalo loads.

wouldn't want a lott, or a 460, or a 303 [but at 215 grain bullets running 2,200 fps ] tempting --- may be enough gun, or a 308, or a 375 ruger, been there done that with the ruger. It was good, not ok, worked good.

It is just that hunting on the early morning of the third day now down 200 rounds and dead out of bullets for my short barrel gun. no rugers in darwin dam sure none in camp. And for dam sure not quite ready to quit killing buffaloes, Berry's 458 came in handy with a car load of bullets he hauled out from town.


Here's the thing, five days at 100 Lott lights a day or there about [5 packs of cigarettes or so,in any event lots of smoke], would run the risk of deep muscle trauma, at that point even the 303 would be a challenge to shoot come thursday morning.

it's a personal thing -- just my problem-- still

I wonder if ---and I will never know if ---Jack Lott had properly dealt with his pre safari recoil issues on that 458 win mag before the buffalo tossing african hunt, might the subsequent development of the 458 lott have ever even happened?

The first good shot and ability to quickly and properly clean up a misstep, more often than not can best be accomplished with: less gun, less velocity, and more pre hunt range time. Not the bigger, faster, fat bullet throwing lighter gun.

that there solution works best at the SCI bar, at the downtown lunch, and other domestic local water holes, or even the city zoo.

no doubt ---some seasoned-- high time-- african hunters

would like to tie my head to a post, whip me down there where the colt sucks, for acting like the stupid mule I am, for bringing this awkward issue up


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
[QUOTE]Another thing that can't be underestimated is recoil. The .458 has plenty of it as it is!
A lot of people find the jump up from the WM to the Lott, Ackley, etc.. just to much. In fact a lot of people find the WM to much and are better off with a .375. Recoil is just one of those things.. it means different things to different people. But I think that we can all agree that for hunting, one MUST be able to shoot their rifle well and one MUST not be scared of it and flinch. Flinching causes wounded game, which in turn causes pain and suffering for the animal and potential danger for the hunter - especially when the big 5 are in question.


Well badboymelvin it is for me--- to my mind-- spot on


Recoil ---- this is the part that I never hear the lott guys EFFECTIVELY address

I've never noticed that much difference between the two but I'm not very recoil sensitive.

If god ever allowed me to go back to darwin,if the gunsmoke safari guy would even take me on, to clean a couple hundred blacks out of the swamp, I would take my culling 458 wm and 500 plus rounds of "shootable yet effective" buffalo loads.

wouldn't want a lott, or a 460, or a 303 [but at 215 grain bullets running 2,200 fps ] tempting --- may be enough gun, or a 308, or a 375 ruger, been there done that with the ruger. It was good, not ok, worked good.

It is just that hunting on the early morning of the third day now down 200 rounds and dead out of bullets for my short barrel gun. no rugers in darwin dam sure none in camp. And for dam sure not quite ready to quit killing buffaloes, Berry's 458 came in handy with a car load of bullets he hauled out from town.


Here's the thing, five days at 100 Lott lights a day or there about [5 packs of cigarettes or so,in any event lots of smoke], would run the risk of deep muscle trauma, at that point even the 303 would be a challenge to shoot come thursday morning.

it's a personal thing -- just my problem-- still

I wonder if ---and I will never know if ---Jack Lott had properly dealt with his pre safari recoil issues on that 458 win mag before the buffalo tossing african hunt, might the subsequent development of the 458 lott have ever even happened?

Jack wasn't the only one who felt the way he did. So did Ackley, Mashburn, Watts and others and apparently most African DG PHs. A PH friend of mine whom I load for has me load 550 gr Woodleighs at 2,100 fps in the Lott which is probably loading it to its hardest hitting. Lott wasn't even the first to wildcat a .458 on the full length H&H case, he was just the most successful at promoting his creation. .458 Lott/Watts/Ackley was going to happen and eclipse the Win Mag regardless of whether Jack Lott got tossed by a buffalo.

The first good shot and ability to quickly and properly clean up a misstep, more often than not can best be accomplished with: less gun, less velocity, and more pre hunt range time. Not the bigger, faster, fat bullet throwing lighter gun.

that there solution works best at the SCI bar, at the downtown lunch, and other domestic local water holes, or even the city zoo.

no doubt ---some seasoned-- high time-- african hunters

If you can't shoot a Lott accurately it's doubtful you can shoot a WM accurately. Have you ever shoot a Lott with 500 gr bullets at 2,300? There isn't that much difference between the two.

would like to tie my head to a post, whip me down there where the colt sucks, for acting like the stupid mule I am, for bringing this awkward issue up
 
Posts: 1005 | Registered: 11 August 2014Reply With Quote
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I've shot my share of buffalo with the .458 Win. 123 in total with the cartridge.

There's no doubt in my mind that upping the velocity increased the killing power; up to
including loads that pushed the bullets back out. The bullets expanded more, and hit harder just as surely as close range shots hit harder than long range shots. Trouble is; the heavily compressed loads are more trouble than they are worth. A simple rechambering job gives the best of both worlds so my Win Mag is now a Lott.
 
Posts: 1919 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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My question for all the folks who claim that the velocity increase with the Lott is meaningful is why not simply go to the 460 Weatherby?


Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
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CFII
NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
 
Posts: 3993 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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One more time.

Using the proper powder charges
Such as H335 & AA2230 to attain
A velocity of between 2125-2200 FPS
using rifles with barrel lengths between
22-24" firing 500 gr. Bullets.

There is no compression.
 
Posts: 200 | Registered: 02 August 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
My question for all the folks who claim that the velocity increase with the Lott is meaningful is why not simply go to the 460 Weatherby?


Yes, I would prefer the 450Rigby, which is the beltless equivalent to the 460Weatherby.
The seems a better powder capacity for a .458".


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4247 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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The first good shot and ability to quickly and properly clean up a misstep, more often than not can best be accomplished with: less gun, less velocity, and more pre hunt range time. Not the bigger, faster, fat bullet throwing lighter gun.



This is not a hard concept to consider

on the other hand if you are just looking for more recoil

9.6 # GUN
AA-2230 HORNADY WT. LB.S LB,S
powder bullet velocity rifle recoil
70 500 2142 9.6 68.3
71 500 2179 9.6 70.0
72 500 2188 9.6 70.5
73 500 2217 9.6 71.9
74 500 2237 9.6 72.9
75 500 2264 9.6 74.2
76 500 2281 9.6 75.0
77 500 2307 9.6 76.3
78 500 2344 9.6 78.2

11.5 # GUN

AA-2230 HORNADY WT. LB.S LB,S
powder bullet velocity rifle recoil
70 500 2142 11.5 57.0
71 500 2179 11.5 58.4
72 500 2188 11.5 58.9
73 500 2217 11.5 60.0
74 500 2237 11.5 60.9
75 500 2264 11.5 61.9
76 500 2281 11.5 62.6
77 500 2307 11.5 63.7
78 500 2344 11.5 65.3


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
My question for all the folks who claim that the velocity increase with the Lott is meaningful is why not simply go to the 460 Weatherby?


I had a .450 Dakota and sold it, great cartridge, but I like the 5 down one in the chamber capacity of my CZ.458 Lott better than the limited capacity my Dakota had.
 
Posts: 1005 | Registered: 11 August 2014Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by SquirrelNut:
quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
My question for all the folks who claim that the velocity increase with the Lott is meaningful is why not simply go to the 460 Weatherby?


I had a .450 Dakota and sold it, great cartridge, but I like the 5 down one in the chamber capacity of my CZ.458 Lott better than the limited capacity my Dakota had.


Interesting.I've always found that there is more time for shots 4 and 5. It is the first shot that I intend to impress with. The rifle that puts the bullet exactly where it needs to go would be my choice.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4247 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Now there is something to be recommended

carry water in your belly and bullets in your gun

I for one, am a 5 down fan

got it from the early days on the high deserts of arizona, when all I could afford and shoot was a 303 british

custom by --- hacksaw and horse hoof rasp inc.

it was a shooter and a killer

I will tell you that


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
My question for all the folks who claim that the velocity increase with the Lott is meaningful is why not simply go to the 460 Weatherby?


Besides it coming in a $3500 push feed that holds 2 down, has an iffy extractor, takes expensive and hard to find ammo and has styling that more than a few people cringing?
 
Posts: 1919 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Thought we were discussing the cartridges as Lott does not build rifles


Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
CFII
NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
 
Posts: 3993 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
I've never noticed that much difference between the two but I'm not very recoil sensitive

the difference is zero

load um up to 2300 fps in rifles of the same wt

same recoil

load em down to 2100 in two rifles of same wt and you lose 10 pounds of kick back

and dam little killing power

With your Lott you are just carrying around more money in gun and brass --- might call it idle money --- but probably worth the bragging rights

on the other hand if you put a compressed load in your big o lott and get er up to 2.500 slinging a 500 hard

now you got yourself a sports model weatherby

with five down and one in the tube

that's if you can get er done without a blow up

that right there --will better help you notice more recoil-- and now you are using your investment with a bit more utility

and thats somthing your are not going to be able to get done with a 458 win mag

Thats dam sure one way to make the lott stand out


and really about the only way I can come up with

and if you want to do that nothing wrong with it

just watch your pressures and sneak up on as much 460 wby velocity as you can stand


''Jack wasn't the only one who felt the way he did. So did Ackley, Mashburn, Watts and others and apparently most African DG PHs. A PH friend of mine whom I load for has me load 550 gr Woodleighs at 2,100 fps in the Lott which is probably loading it to its hardest hitting. Lott wasn't even the first to wildcat a .458 on the full length H&H case, he was just the most successful at promoting his creation. .458 Lott/Watts/Ackley was going to happen and eclipse the Win Mag regardless of whether Jack Lott got tossed by a buffalo.''


what Jack got done that the rest of um did not was --- promote his name

at the bully pulpit of the hunting magazine

by running down a perfectly good caliber ---to promote his own version--- of someone else's wildcat --- for about 60 fps

yes- I have a ruger in the african lott chambering--- and a bunch of new hornady brass [500]

so I guess--- that makes me a sucker too

difference is

I know it's not at the expense of the good old standby 458 win mag - duty rifle - african safari king --- carmichael's big daddy gun

standing on tradition

is what makes africa for all of us here

and what makes the african magic in all of it for all of us here

we accomplish nothing-- by saying a 458 wm can not killem, and only thing the ph's will carry and trust is a lott, over a win mag

to me that smells like poppycock


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Am I wrong about what the old Jack said about the .458WM?

In his "Bore Big Rifles" (published in 1983) he, of course, tell us about the near-death-experience he had with a nasty buff (in the .458 WM chapter) but he never said it's was a wimpy cartridge, not even close to such statement but the contrary.

Basically he blamed the bullets, not the cartridge which he touted as a very good one.

Not saying he might have changed his mind years later, but indeed his dreams about what finally became the .458 Lott was long before this article.

So, the man never spoke out and loud against this proven cartrdige, the talented .458 WM


------------------------------------------------------------------------
ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution
http://www.patagoniaballistics.com
 
Posts: 740 | Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina | Registered: 14 January 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by stradling:

we accomplish nothing-- by saying a 458 wm can not killem, and only thing the ph's will carry and trust is a lott, over a win mag

to me that smells like poppycock


Go meet some PHs then tell me it's poppycock that most of them prefer the Lott to the Win Mag. As I stated earlier the last camp I was in there were 4 PHs and one appy, 4 used Lotts and one used a .470 double.
 
Posts: 1005 | Registered: 11 August 2014Reply With Quote
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a 470 ne one appy four ph'S and a hunt

can not be considered a robust data set

even - a pre sample of what's out there

it can be seed for a preferential opinion

good for marketing, good for politics, and good for reinforcing the soul of a proud gun owner

does not make you right, does not make you wrong

just isn't much information to go on

A lott is-- loaded up-- a fair stopping rifle, If you're man enough to drive it forward at 2400 fps hauling a 500 grain load

usually bigger un the american client's gun,

adequate for bragging rights

and if you can handle it running the hotter loads

a dam fine back up rifle

only if dun up by a competent gun maker

not saying it's silly, just saying it won't do much if anything the 458 win mag can get done

better faster cheaper -- ALL THREE

better because --all of us-- shoot with more consistency - accuracy --better-- with less recoil as opposed to more

faster because the human brain can recover and respond to the next trama if the strike was light er un a hot Lott recoil bump, so out of 10 runs will produce a higher score of quick accurate 2nd shots

and I will let other folks work on why it may be a bit cheaper to own and run the 458 wm then it is a lott --- giving up that the money is really less of an issue here

the Lott best -- 458 win mag not so good -- is not unlike setting up the argument

that a 470 ne wont quite killem best to get a 500 ne if you can afford it and shoot it

If I were to advance that debate

Squirrel Nut might say--- and rightly so--- that I was full of

poppycock


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
On a point of order regarding the origin of the 458 Winchester:

Winchester engineers did not design it!

The 458 Winchester is in fact the 450 short Watts designed by James Watts and released to Winchester for use in the 50's.

From left to right:
458 Win, 450 Watts, 458 3 inch express



James Watts "patented " his 450 Watts in 1950.
The basis for the cartridge was the Norma basic case for the 375H&H which is why the case is slightly longer than Lott's later 450 Lott.
Harvey Anderson of Anderson's gun store in Yakima built the rifles .



The 63mm Version came after for use in a standard length action. Watts lamented that Winchester's choice of the short version was a mistake and they should have gone with the full length version

He originally offered the full length to Roy Weatherby who turned him down. He also wrote to Winchester, they initially did not answer him but later took on the short version.

He experimented with various lengths in the same case.

The 450 2 inch, a 2 1/4 inch the 63mm long 450 Short Watts which Winchester renamed the 458 Winchester and the 450 Watts proper.

There were also rimmed versions for lever actions.

Watts had Barnes make him bullets for his 450 after experiencing failures with Kynoch bullets that Anderson imported for him from England.

I had a ZKK 602 458 Win that was reamed by Hennie Oosthuizen of Sannieshof in South Africa. to a Watts. Hennie was a legend in the big bore world and he somehow procured a Watts reamer.

My decision to get the 458 reamed to a Watts came by way of recommendation from various sources including Eric Rundgren and these two gentlemen. They were my mentors and I took what they taught to heart. ( right or wrong)



Hennie was also linked to Tom Siatos's original 460 G&A




I'd love to hear more anecdotes on/from Rundgren. He was a hell of an interesting person it sounds like.
 
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All of the foregoing is very interesting. However, the point remains the same.

That does not make the .458Win any less capable.

We need to define "better".

I will respect any feedback given by experienced by PHs, but in some cases, with a grain of salt.

I've seen enough of bad placed shots, wrong bullets and the combination of the two.

So, some feedback has to be backed up with enough information to make it really valuable.

Just saying "the .458Win failed to me" is far from enough to make any decent conclusion based on merit and with a rational approach.

Otherwise, the other half of the world, which support the .458WIn is wrong? Don't think so.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution
http://www.patagoniaballistics.com
 
Posts: 740 | Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina | Registered: 14 January 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
On a point of order regarding the origin of the 458 Winchester:

Winchester engineers did not design it!

The 458 Winchester is in fact the 450 short Watts designed by James Watts and released to Winchester for use in the 50's.

From left to right:
458 Win, 450 Watts, 458 3 inch express

James Watts "patented " his 450 Watts in 1950.
The basis for the cartridge was the Norma basic case for the 375H&H which is why the case is slightly longer than Lott's later 450 Lott.
Harvey Anderson of Anderson's gun store in Yakima built the rifles .

The 63mm Version came after for use in a standard length action. Watts lamented that Winchester's choice of the short version was a mistake and they should have gone with the full length version

He originally offered the full length to Roy Weatherby who turned him down. He also wrote to Winchester, they initially did not answer him but later took on the short version.

He experimented with various lengths in the same case.

The 450 2 inch, a 2 1/4 inch the 63mm long 450 Short Watts which Winchester renamed the 458 Winchester and the 450 Watts proper.

There were also rimmed versions for lever actions.

Watts had Barnes make him bullets for his 450 after experiencing failures with Kynoch bullets that Anderson imported for him from England.

I had a ZKK 602 458 Win that was reamed by Hennie Oosthuizen of Sannieshof in South Africa. to a Watts. Hennie was a legend in the big bore world and he somehow procured a Watts reamer.

My decision to get the 458 reamed to a Watts came by way of recommendation from various sources including Eric Rundgren and these two gentlemen. They were my mentors and I took what they taught to heart. ( right or wrong)

Hennie was also linked to Tom Siatos's original 460 G&A


Alf, thanks for sharing this "inside" story about the birth of the venerable .458Win


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ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution
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Posts: 740 | Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina | Registered: 14 January 2001Reply With Quote
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My post never questioned the killing ability of the .458 and I stated that, so why the questioning on that..

What I question is the compacted loads required to get 2100 FPS, and I get false claims in response..Another factor of no factual fragrance is quoting me loads in 75 to 78 degrees of heat to question my response..78 degrees is not the 110 degrees of Africa. also my .458 Lotts were on 98 Mauser and pre 64 actions, not true magnum actions.. Now my post stated that I personally preferred to run a weaver in the .458 chamber and make it a Lott and load it down to my favorite .458 Load of 2200 to 2250 FPS..Keeping in mind that the quoted 100 FPS IS a lot in a Lott, with a 500 gr. bullet..Its not much in a 270 or 30-06 or even a 300 WBY but is a bunch in a DG round..

Actually, as a reloader, I also prefer the Watts.

Just my thoughts and replys to the posts directed at my opinion, and they are appreciated and worth conversation..


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 38624 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
Ray try 73 gn of aa 2230


thanks frank


Interested in Reloder 7 and 450gr Barnes TSX, any load you can reccomend for these components?


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Posts: 740 | Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina | Registered: 14 January 2001Reply With Quote
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not yet


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
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quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
Thought we were discussing the cartridges as Lott does not build rifles


A cartridge isn't good for much without a rifle to fire it in.
 
Posts: 1919 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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There was a fellow at were I worked years ago.

He got the nickname "Pine knot"

He was the kind of fellow that you could show him reams of proof, have a legion of people tell him the same fact, have the proof engraved on a granite stone and verified by multiple experts,

And he still wouldn't believe it.

That's why they called him "Pine Knot"
 
Posts: 200 | Registered: 02 August 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
Ray try 73 gn of aa 2230

good velocity in 22 inch tubes and no compaction

its a non issue with this powder component

we are loading and shooting to collect data to confirm, validate, or disprove ---just that

several factorials --velocities bullets and other 458 win mag issues

on seven plus rifles

WIN 70
CS 550
REMINGTON CUSTOM
WEATHERBY CUSTOM
REMINGTON 798
MONTANA
SMITHSON CUSTOM
AND ONE MORE THAT I CAN NOT RECALL JUST NOW

so lots of variety

several barrel lengths focus is on a 22 inch velocity as a worst case scenario and at this early stage we are getting 2100 plus w a 21 1/2 inch tube



all pushing 500 grain hornady solid and soft tips

will have the data sets all done and all in this fall but for now with this powder at that quantity NO COMPRESSION


posted Jul 6, 10:47 AM Hide Post
DATA 06-06 2017
remington 700 21 1/2 inch barrel
[ruger #1 take off]
458 win mag -- custom culling rifle w 10 round bottom clip
trigicon reflex sight

10.3 # rifle

bullet 500 gn hornady solid dxs

powder aa 2230
brass new winchester
federal 215 primer
lab radar
temp 78 degrees

70 gn 2104---2098
71 gn 2120-- 2112
72 gn 2132---2139
73 gn 2152---2145
74 gn 2181---2180


this is a temperature stable powder and one of the test will be to sun heat loads and image them with a thermal gun then shoot for pressure velocity and so on

this august then again in late december

to get an empirical experience with one load, one gun, one lot of powder -- so that's one of the thing we are doing

the literature suggest

we should be ok up to 140 deg f bullet temperature

shall see soon enough



trying to sort out the bullshit, dump the horse shit, and save good shit here

call or pm me and I will fill you in on the work we are doing on this and why

thanks frank


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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SOME INFORMATION ON THE AA 2230 PRODUCT TO GIVE US A BASELINE POSITION [ A STARTING POINT]

I misspoke on the prior post

it's not and upper temperature limit of 140 f

its 125 f see below

[QUOTE] Accurate 2230 is a fast burning, double-base, spherical rifle propellant.

This versatile powder was designed around the 223 Remington, but can be used in many small and medium caliber cartridges including

the 308 Winchester. 2230 also works well in big bore straight wall cartridges such as the 458 Winchester.

The excellent flow characteristics and grain size of 2230 make it ideal for progressive loading.

Made in Belgium

Bulk Density(grams/cc) +/-5.6% 0.985 VMD(cc/grams) 1.015

Bulk Density(grains/cc) +/-5.6% 15.201 VMD(cc/grains) 0.066
From the Accurate Powder web site:


Most of our powders are not insensitive, and will show some effect at hot and cold temperatures.

However, we test at -40F and +125F and the deviation in most cases are ca 3% to 5% at these extreme levels. Therefore most shooters do not notice much difference under normal practical hunting conditions.

More elaboration on the subject:

Complete temperature stability can only be achieved with tubular extruded powders designs, either with double base (NG) and/or with other coating technologies.

Because the ballistic performance at extreme temperature is completely dependant on the specific combination, it is very difficult to quantify and qualify.

Our standard powders perform very well at extreme temperatures, and usually pass the strict military requirements by a large margin.

This is a subject that often fraught with misconceptions and inaccuracies.

The term is used loosely by manufacturers without qualifying the subject, and is obviously exploited for marketing purposes and perceptions.

The facts are:

Although powders can be improved,
it is really only possible with advanced coating procedures and additives which increase the cost

A particular powder can be improved re temperature stability for certain combinations, within a certain envelope which is specific to the following three main parameters/aspects

The caliber.

The weight of the projectile/bullet.

The performance level.


If any of these parameters/aspects go beyond or outside the intended ratio/s, the results will change and the performance will sometimes be different.

It is also very important that when a comparison is made, that all conditions

re
weapon i.e. components
primer,
case,
bullet and the velocity are equal,


and preferably done at the same time on the same day.


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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GOOD GOD A MIGHTY ---now you have gone and done it-- ALF

sorting out the facts from the fairy tells

Finn Aagaard writes about the 458 win mag in the 458 wm section of any shot you want reloading manual

published 1996 --- reinforcing just about everything your post--- lays out

at that time it was hard if not impossible, to get the velocities reported in today's world, with components available at that time

Finn was not inclined to run the gun down --- hell he loved it

it is definitive that the only load listed for caliber in that volume was the 465 lion load, running at a not very hot 2250, using the A square proprietary bullet

one I never liked much

but I did not shoot it much either, so there is that, and it was a soft not a solid, so

making a --- somewhat of a --- left handed point here

I wonder if, and it may be quite hard to ever know if,

the slower running bullets, --- and subsequent reduction in recoil--- modern physics suggests was present at the time,

might have had more of an impact on the killing record of that gun culling elephant, then the -- advertised -- expected and MUCH wanted velocity ever could have.

a 458 wm running at 1900 is appreciably more friendly hauling around a 500 grain solid, than one burning off at 2350

a fact like that could do damage to a little man's ego

one thing we do hear about -- the duty rifle in those days did quite a lot of killing

the safari rifle of the 1970 is credited with, SAVING AFRICA some people labeled it the safari king of africa, growing up in arizona we kids thought of it as -- THE big daddy GUN.

it is remarkable that all that happened with a setup that --- consistently and predictably-- hardly if ever, achieved any thing north of 2000 fps

makes you ponder, if even give all the new powder fancy bullets and other rifle choices out there today,

would a 458 wm loaded to fit my ability, tuned up, shot in, and well practiced, not be a good,

if not best fit choice -- for me to head of to africa and shoot the eland while not embarrassing myself

and then facing the requirement to resent the PH having all the fun


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Alf,
Your logic will fall on a cornucopia of deaf ears, and out of joint noses and black magic procurers.. sofa

The .458 Win. is not the where to all of DG rifles, never was and never will be..Will it kill all DG? yes it will but its always been prone to failure and judged by those who have shot one or two elephants or buffalo with it, and a big advertisement campaign..since it was so handicap some claimed it true and they dropped 50 gr,s and bumped the velocity to shoot a short fat bullet, much like a muzzle loader. That IMO is a poor alternative for various reasons a band aid more or less. Then the wonder powders show up but still its a blivit of a caliber and that is 5 lbs. of paw paw (African term for escrement) in a 3 lb. bag, compression and pressure spiked.

Of course this is just my opinion, but its my honest evaluation, like it or not and folks certainly have every right to disagree and challenge that..Its the reason we are on this page together..

I actually would use a 458 Watts to get the needed velocity in a std. action with a 500 gr. bullet, quite a caliber IMO. The Lott however has been legitimized and no longer a wildcat and rightly so..Id load it down to 2200 to 2250 with a 500 gr. and to me that's about the perfect 45 cal DG rifle. Its so easy to do with a std. 458 Win., just run a reamer in to punch it out, I can see no reason not to..cheap and it works.


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 38624 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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yes Ray, lots of ways to get more volume more velocity and more energy

this thread,

velocity of 458 win mag using hornady loads --- is the core discussion

the 458 is more than adequate

and using today's components can achieve velocities most people are not aware of, due to the old information and misinformation out there


1950 fps is enough to do the work required with a 500 grain hornady solid and soft

that's all

our range time today gave us 2200 fps in 3 rifles

temperature on the range was 93 degrees at high noon

gun --- smithson custom 458, 22 inch barrel, 1909 mauser action, shooting up to 2200 fps at 74 grains of aa 2230

gun--- montana action, was tested from 70 to 78 grains of same powder with a velocity of 2310 fps at 78 gn, 22 inch tube

custom remington 700, 75 grains gave velocities in the lower 2200 fps

we did see a observable variation in the 5 rifles tested to date, some with flat primers at 75 grains and 2 that shot up to 78 with no flat primer

we will center future work on velocities in the 2150 range for all guns to be tested

and that load, with one powder, will be fired at cartridge temperatures up to 140 f to record the pressure indications and velocity changes

the recoil at 2150 with a 9.5 - 10.5 pound rifle is about all I would want, and as such should do a good job on large game



the velocity change for softs was less than 10 fps over solids, which makes us say hornady has done quite well with that set of dg bullets at the 500 grain wt

we are testing only one powder in this run, to demonstrate to us, for us, that a rifle with a 22 inch tube can obtain velocities in the range of 2150 launching 500 grain hornady softs and solids

and that the impact point will be consistent between the two bullets

we are preferential to a load that is not compressed. yields velocity north of 2100 with 500 grain hunting bullets. can take hot sun and or a hot barrel. and not stick the bolt

easy to load. so no drop tube. and or extra crimp issues effort


while discovering issues that arise over 7 or 8 rifles typically found in the 458 win mag inventory

3 off the shelf so-- win 70 --rem 798-- cz

Then a rebarreled montana action, custom 98 action, custom rem 700 action, finaly the custom weatherby action


early indication is that it is quite straightforward to achieve 2150 in all rifles listed, with some of the rifles 2300 plus is possible with acceptable pressure indication.

some of the tight custom, or what ever causes it, rifles are delivering flat primers at about 75 grains of aa 2230, who knows why, we are not obsessing about that, just stop the progression at that point, with that rifle


when we complete the round heating and shooting tests, I expect that I can report with good confidence that, this powder-- primer-- bullet-- combination, is a good fit for running your 458 win mag using modern components

we are not trying to achieve 2300 fps, we are trying to discover the sweet spot for a standard 458 win mag, in this bullet, rifle configuration

if a 458 wm shooting a 500 grain hornady at something less than or equal to 2150 is satisfactory for your application, why do anything to it, just buy one, load up some ammo, and shoot it in

that is the kind of thing we are working toward here

it is enough, nothing wrong with it, good rifle, good round, good choice -- if this is your preference

if on the other hand some one needs to build up the justification for a lott by running down the trusted and long running win mag

best to get it above 2150 before much pontification on the virtues of the--- lott--- watt--- or hot--- wby

really not all that deep Ray


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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I like what your saying, but when I load like that some folks jump on me like a duck on a june bug!! rotflmo


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 38624 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Well Ray

you have been around enough cowboys to know what works at the end of a catch rope is good enough to get the branding done

people that read and opine what they think they know ''sounds good''. more often than not are the very ones that draw back when things get down to the nut cuttin

and dam sure don't eat rocky mountain oysters, no matter which way ya cook em -- which leaves more for us

we measured the rifles today getting ready for the next run of testing


yet to be acquired a something 458 win mag with a 20 inch tube

10.5 pound gun LEFT HAND remington 700 custom 21.5 inch barrel top speed 74 grains 2256 fps light compression -- some pressure show

11.25 pound gun LEFT HAND montana custom 22 inch barrel top speed 78 grains 2310 fps heavy compression-- light pressure show

8.75 pound gun m 98 1909 argentine custom 22 5/8 barrel top speed 73 grains 2180 fps no compression --- light pressure show

9.5 pound gun winchester m 70 production gun 24 inch barrel not yet shot
11.75 pound gun LEFT HAND weatherby custom 24 inch barrel not yet shot
11.25 pound gun CZ 458 win mag production gun 25 inch barrel not yet shot

10 pound gun zustiva remington 798 production gun 26 inch barrel top speed 78 grains 2355 fps heavy compression --no pressure show

powder aa 2230 new can
primer federal 215
brass new winchester
bullets 500 grain dg softs and solids by hornady

so far we see opportunity to meet the test goals with extra margin in speed for folks that want to go 100 fps faster than the target velocity of 2150 fps

but that is getting ahead a bit for where we are at this time

next time you wander down to provo

plan on lunch and a half day on the gun range

we would welcome your input and guarantee you a grand time

may show you some fancy rifles, just cause you like that kind of stuff, just promise not to scratch one, they belong to rich people, not us

we have run aground for now waiting on more bullets


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogleg:
quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
Thought we were discussing the cartridges as Lott does not build rifles


A cartridge isn't good for much without a rifle to fire it in.


The Weatherby rounds can, and have been, built on any action capable of handling the 416 Rigby


Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
CFII
NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
 
Posts: 3993 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
I've shot my share of buffalo with the .458 Win. 123 in total with the cartridge.

There's no doubt in my mind that upping the velocity increased the killing power; up to
including loads that pushed the bullets back out. The bullets expanded more, and hit harder just as surely as close range shots hit harder than long range shots. Trouble is; the heavily compressed loads are more trouble than they are worth. A simple chambering job gives the best of both worlds so my Win Mag is now a Lott.



Dogleg

what velocities are you preferential to and what bullet wt do you tend to shoot when running your 458 lott setup

what rifle make do you happen to have

may give us a break point for thinking about the practical upper range for pushing a 458 win mag

if anyone on this forum backs up his gun with hunting, shooting, and the ability to run the gun

I would say you're on that list, in that group

I see from other posts your back from Australia

with another Teddy Roosevelt bag

My kind of hunting

if I was smart as you and had 2 dimes to rub together


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Intelligent conversation can go south when one attacks old betsy on the internet, a difference of opinion gets hot and heavy..My questions is so whats the big deal, it all just opinion based on what someone has read, what someone has spent money on, and sometimes based on experience...

Bottom line in this case is the .458 Win. its been in the barrel all its life, but it will kill buffalo and elephant, albeit with handloads. But there are better options, ooops! sofa


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 38624 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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The luxury of near total access to information via a screen device has flooded our logic processing units. This results predictably in some chaos in thought.
We see the same problem today in the "intelligence" gathering arena. We know so much but are paralyzed by the choices.
The 458 WM was and is a fine Killer of things one wants to kill. Factory or hand load. Safely in any conditions a human can survive in.
So is the Lott. Choices.
Best regards,


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2099 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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There are choices and most if not all of them are excellent variations on the 458 caliber

This thread is exploring hornady's load manuals published loads and various rifles as related to velocity and pressure of those powder recipes


at least that was the start of things

and as such is reflected in the core content of this discussion



the inference might be,

can we with loads published in the latest reloading manual hornady reloading manual, achieve performance as advertized at the inception of the rifle which were not validated in the field

leading to much disappointment in a time when the hunting world badly needed a substitute to the old world heavy;s of gone by days



The theme here

--- is not--- to set the record straight, that now days you don't need a 460 weatherby, it's no good, or drop your lott, the duty rifle is back,


but rather --The theme of this discussion is


that with today's modern components, which includes affordable and available bullets, you can run the gun just like it was billed out in 1956

our recent testing indicates yes you can, and more

why because in most, if not all rifles, of short, shorter than originally advertised 26" barrel length [see article below] , the gun will run at 2150 fps launching the 500 grain soft and solid

now, if it will do that, and that is all you really need to get done

well, it, seems it, is enough gun



however if,


that makes some one with a bigger gun, faster and harder hitting, uncomfortable

because he selected his weapon based on, the legend that, the 458 is no good

well I really don't know how to help this individual get comfortable with his choice, nothing wrong with his rifle



nothing much wrong with the 458 win mag running today's fodder, it's all about choices and what you, the individual can shoot and, are comfortable with


that's simple enough, I should thing

Hell it might even be considered reasonable, by right minded gentlemen


REVIEWING THE HISTORY OF THE 458 WIN MAG [QUOTE]

The .458 Winchester Magnum was designed from the outset to duplicate the performance level of the .450 Nitro Express and the .470 Nitro Express, which had become the mainstay of African dangerous game hunters. The .450 Nitro Express had been rated to launch a 480 gr (31.1 g) bullet at 2,150 ft/s (655 m/s) out of a 28 in (711 mm) barrel while the .470 Nitro Express would launch a 500 gr (32.4 g) bullet at 2,125 ft/s (648 m/s) out of a 31 in (787 mm) barrel. The design criteria for the .458 Winchester Magnum called for it to launch a 510 gr (33.0 g) bullet at 2,150 ft/s (655 m/s) out of a 26 in (660 mm) barrel.

In the days when “the sun never set” on the British Empire, the colonization of vast areas on the African continent and most all of India resulted in a requirement for heavy caliber, powerful rifles and ammunition to protect the homesteads from large and often dangerous animals.

In addition, a fledgling business of outfitting and guiding foreign hunters in pursuit of these animals was developing, primarily in Kenya, but spreading throughout the continent. Rifles chambered for such exotic sounding names like .470 Nitro Express (NE), .475 #2 NE, .500 NE, and many others, along with the necessary ammunition, began showing up in both Africa and India. With few exceptions there was but one source of the necessary ammunition, and that was the UK firm called Kynoch.

Things went along just peachy for a while. Eventually, however, Kynoch learned that, as necessary as the ammunition manufacture for these big game cartridges was, they couldn’t make any money loading them. The volume requirements required to make it profitable just weren’t there, so, they did what prudent businessmen do and ceased production on most of the cartridges. This had the effect of turning lots of very handsome and very expensive firearms effectively into boat anchors. Without ammunition they were essentially useless.

In the early fifties, the Management at Olin Corp. saw an opportunity to fill the void by introducing their famous Winchester Model 70 bolt action rifle in some new chamberings, one of which was designed specifically for dangerous-game hunting in both Africa and India. They called it the .458 Winchester Magnum.Olin introduced it to the shooting world in 1956. It was designed to duplicate the ballistics of the .450 NE, .470 NE and other similar cartridges. Winchester engineers modified and shortened the .375 H&H cartridge case, and loaded a 500 grain bullet in front of enough powder to provide a muzzle velocity of about 2150 feet per second (FPS), basically replicating the Nitro Express cartridges ballistically.


Olin then hired African Professional Hunter David Ommanney to be their “Winchester’s Man in Africa,” and followed up with a blistering advertising campaign to sell both rifles and ammunition. It became an initial success, with PHs, wardens, wildlife managers and other professionals, along with the few visiting hunters venturing to that part of the world searching for elephant, buffalo, rhino, lions, tigers, etc., arming themselves with the new development.

The .458 Winchester Magnum became the world standard dangerous-game cartridge rather quickly, due in part to the fact that both the ammunition and rifles to shoot it were very substantially less expensive than British-made rifles, particularly since no ammunition was being produced for them.


Alas, after a few years in the field, problems began cropping up. Muzzle velocities were often discovered to be substantially less than the advertised velocities, frequently less than 2000 fps instead of 2150, and erratic performance issues.

Winchester investigated and found that the heavily compressed loads of ball powder that they were using, had a habit of clumping together causing fickle ignition and less than desirable performance. These were not welcome attributes for a dangerous-game rifle. Winchester addressed the problem and corrected it, but considerable damage was already done to the reputation of the cartridge.


Well known outdoor writer Jack Lott, managed to get himself into a tussle with a cape buffalo he had wounded using the .458 Win Mag. Needless to say, he didn’t win the wrestling match and was hammered pretty good. He didn’t do Winchester any favors writing about his experience in the outdoor press. As a result of his experience, he lengthened the .458 Winchester cartridge case by .300” and called his creation the .458 Lott. The added powder capacity, as well as advances in powder technology, made achieving Winchester’s goal with the Win Mag round easily achievable.


Even so, the .458 Winchester Magnum set the standard for dangerous-game cartridges.

Most ammunition manufacturers load factory ammo for it, and most rifle manufacturers make rifles chambered for the round. In spite of past glitches with the ammo, it works and it works very well. Armed with a quality rifle chambered for the .458 Win Mag, and the ability to shoot it accurately, the hunter need fear very little in today’s hunting world.


.458 Winchester Magnum Ammunition
Ammunition Bullet Muzzle Velocity Muzzle Energy MPBR/Zero Notes
Winchester X4581 Winchester 510 gr (33 g) SP 2,040 ft/s (620 m/s) 4,712 ft·lbf (6,389 J) 195 yd (178 m)/167 yd (153 m) Currently in production
Winchester S458WSLSP Nosler 500 gr (32 g) Partition 2,240 ft/s (680 m/s) 5,570 ft·lbf (7,550 J) 218 yd (199 m)/185 yd (169 m) Currently in production
Winchester S458WSLS Nosler 500 gr (32 g) Solid 2,240 ft/s (680 m/s) 5,570 ft·lbf (7,550 J) 213 yd (195 m)/181 yd (166 m) Currently in production
Federal P458T1 TBBC 400 gr (26 g) SP 2,250 ft/s (690 m/s) 4,496 ft·lbf (6,096 J) 212 yd (194 m)/180 yd (160 m) Currently in production
Federal P458T2 TBBC 500 gr (32 g) SP 2,090 ft/s (640 m/s) 4,849 ft·lbf (6,574 J) 206 yd (188 m)/175 yd (160 m) Currently in production
Federal P458T3 TBSS 500 gr (32 g) Solid 1,950 ft/s (590 m/s) 4,221 ft·lbf (5,723 J) 194 yd (177 m)/165 yd (151 m) Currently in production
Federal P458D Barnes 500 gr (32 g) TSX 2,050 ft/s (620 m/s) 4,665 ft·lbf (6,325 J) 206 yd (188 m)/175 yd (160 m) Currently in production
Federal P458E Barnes 500 gr (32 g) BS 2,050 ft/s (620 m/s) 4,665 ft·lbf (6,325 J) 205 yd (187 m)/174 yd (159 m) Currently in production
Federal P458SA Swift 500 gr (32 g) A Frame 2,090 ft/s (640 m/s) 4,849 ft·lbf (6,574 J) 207 yd (189 m)/176 yd (161 m) Currently in production
Norma 20111102 Barnes 500 gr (32 g) BS 2,067 ft/s (630 m/s) 4,745 ft·lbf (6,433 J) 207 yd (189 m)/176 yd (161 m) Currently in production
Norma 20111202 Swift 500 gr (32 g) A Frame 2,116 ft/s (645 m/s) 4,972 ft·lbf (6,741 J) 209 yd (191 m)/178 yd (163 m) Currently in production


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
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OK, nice resource for .458 WinMag history and load data, thanks. clap
Even made me get out the Cal Pappas' book,
James '.450' Watts: Recollections of My Life
and start reading it again. I quickly concluded:
UNDENIABLE TRUTH: A GRIZZLY BEAR IS TO JAMES WATTS AS A CAPE BUFFALO IS TO JACK LOTT.
See why below.

James Watts was born in Kansas in 1913.
He got his first gun at age 8 y.o., a Stevens single-shot, drop-lever .22RF,
and he was then paying 15 cents per box of "Lesmoke shells -- the last of the semi-smokeless shells" (Pappas, 1996, p. 12).
In 1936-1937 James Watts was teaching history and english in Deerfield, KS, having just finished a bachelor's degree.
In late 1937 or early 1938 he bought his first Winchester Model 70, a .375 H&H,
"the 17th Winchester made in that caliber. I bought it in Lawrence, Kansas, when I was in graduate school.
A friend and I went down to the garbage dump to try it out. It shot hard!" (Pappas, 1996, p. 14).
rotflmo
(Stuart Otteson says the first M70s started shipping in August 1936.)

But it did not shoot hard enough!
By summer of 1938 James Watts was hiking from Valdez to Fairbanks, Alaska, packing that M70,
and a hundred rounds of ammo.
(I have driven that 373 miles with my mother-in-law in the back seat,
so I know who enjoyed the trip more: James Watts!)
He worked a year, based in Fairbanks, 1938-1939, as ditch digger, accountant, and airborne mining claim surveyor,
he was a James of many trades, all about central and northeastern Alaska.

Hiking south from Fairbanks to Valdez in summer of 1939 James Watts had a run-in with a grizzly.
Probably what he was hoping for all along, hence the 400-mile hikes!

"It was 10 o'clock at night and I was walking on a well-worn game trail.
Across the river was a small hill and the game trail continued on up that hill.
When I got to the middle of the river I heard a noise and looked up. Coming down the other side toward me was a grizzly.
He was coming through the wet ferns and brush (it had stopped raining) and his coat was shiny and wet.
He growled a couple of times when he saw me. I had my pack on my back and swung my rifle around.
When I'm by myself I always keep the barrel loaded and on safety.
Just as I did that he turned from the trail and came down through the brush at me.

"I fired the .375 and hit him right in the middle of the chest as he was coming over the brush.
I was using Western 300-grain soft points in the rifle.
He let out a terrible bawl as he hit the water right beside me.
As he hit the stream next to me I fell sideways and landed on my left elbow.
He made one swipe and hit me with his paw as he went by.
I had a Colt New Service .45 on my hip (it was the biggest revolver I could get in those days) with a 7-1/2-inch barrel.
He hit the Colt with his paw and tore the gun and holster right off my belt. When the holster ripped off my belt, the force spun me around.
He then went by me and up onto the bank of the incoming trail.
When the bullet hit him he apparently lost interest in me and went right on by.
I rolled over in the water and took a shot again, but missed.

"I picked myself up from the water, loaded the rifle, and shed my pack.
I didn't have my pistol as it was somewhere in the stream.
In my pack was a single shot .22 Stevens Tip Up I used for shooting grouse and rabbits for food.
I went down the trail about 50 feet and there he lay, blood everywhere.
The .375 slug went straight through him. I cut off a couple of claws and picked up my pack.
I made a small camp and went to sleep until 8 in the morning.

"Early that morning, I found my pistol in the stream.
It was behind a boulder and didn't have a mark on it.
I waded the stream and went on two miles to Black Rapids Inn.
I had a good meal there and rested up for 8 or 10 hours.
One of my legs was skinned up a little and my right hip was badly bruised.

"I continued walking to Valdez. It was a test of endurance and a matter of principle,
foolish principle, but principle none the less ..." (Pappas, 1996, p.18).

Above excerpts for book review purposes.
Book review: Excellent book. tu2


Also from my bookshelf,
WESTERN POWDERS RELOADING & LOAD DATA GUIDE EDITION's 5.0 and 6.0:
**************************************************************************
**************************************************************************
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM
24" barrel, 1:14" twist
Case: Winchester, 2.500" max case length, trim to 2.490"
Primer: FED 215

ACCURATE 2230: 72.0 grains
500-gr Hornady RN, 3.305" COL (POWDER NOT COMPRESSED)
53,808 PSI
2,159 FPS

ACCURATE 2460: 74.0 grains
500-gr Hornady RN, 3.305" COL (POWDER COMPRESSION NOT SPECIFIED)
52,864 PSI
2,192 FPS

***************************************************
***************************************************

.458 LOTT
24" barrel, 1:10" twist
Case: Hornady, 2.800" max case length, trim to 2.790"
Primer: WIN WLR

ACCURATE 2230: 82.0 grains
500-gr Hornady RN, 3.600" COL (POWDER NOT COMPRESSED)
60,000 PSI
2,275 FPS

ACCURATE 2520: 86.0 grains
500-gr Hornady RN, 3.600" COL (POWDER NOT COMPRESSED)
61,000 PSI
2,310 FPS

***************************************************
***************************************************

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post
thanks for the post

great story best get and read that adventure as told

sounds as though Watts made a good center mass shot just not quite a quick enough stop on the brown

on the 458 s

did not appreciate the rise in pressure of right at 6,200 psi for the lott to produce the increased

velocity of 83 fps and an additional 10 grains of the aa 2230 fuel

both or either rifle would have delivered a better whap to the growler than the 375

learn something every day

quite interesting to compare data on the two rounds


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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