At the moment being less ambitious than 12GAFH, my goal is to get a slug made that can be used with the readily available 2.5" brass hull in a 3" chamber, or with 3" to 3.5" brass or plastic hulls in a 3.5" chamber, and hope it will stabilize in a 1:35" twist if velocity is high enough.

First idea:




This slug might be shot FN nose forward, or reversed for use as a hollowpoint lead slug.

If made of copper of .729-caliber, it might be considered a two-in-one FN solid and cup point.

I have no idea what it will weigh in either lead or copper, but I want to find out.
If it weighs 1000 grains at .730-caliber, SD = .268
It will be dart stabilized when used as an FN solid in lead or copper, and hopefully will work in the 1:35" twist of the H&R/NEF Ultra Slug.

Sumbuddy who know best mould maker for the assignment?

Edit/PS:

A resident genius has said it would be 1275 grains in copper.

How much more in lead?

Maybe I better shorten that puppy ...

RIP,

you can specify all the dimensions, and weight range if you specify alloy from Steve Brooks. He will run you about $150 or so, and can usually deliver within four weeks.

www.brooksmoulds.com

Steve or Gayle Brooks
406-782-5114

Good Hunting

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

RIP- You should hand ream to 12GaFH then just shoot the short versions till you work up to the big kahunna. Also, I learned that very slow powders like H50BMG even with a full case will give pretty low velocities. The other advantage is of course the .50BMG primer for reliable ignition.I'm glad you are now seeing the real light of the 12GaFH. Remember you can always shorten a 12 GaFH to the short version and have lots of cheap brass from .50BMGs to play with. Macifej said he could make a run of threaded .50BMG cases quickly and inexpensively and I could make the rims. If enough people wanted them.
Yes Steve Brooks can make you a good mold. Thats a pretty simple design and poses no issues I can see other than I think It will need to be about 1.3-1.4 inches long for 1000 grs. Undoubtably less in copper. Did you run the Greenhill equation and see if it will stabilize with a 1:35 twist?
If you want them in coppper I could knock out some but you know what the cost is right?-Rob

Rich,
Thanks. Brooks can do up to .750" diameter x 1.750"length bullet in their large block, says so up front on the opening page of the web site, so they surely could handle mine, and one a little shorter than that.

Rob,
Thanks for the pointers.
I have not played with Greenhill and length of bullet yet, but will.

Macifej is the source of the estimated weight in copper. I think he does it in his head.

I am open for acquiring 12GaFH cases or any 12Ga brass longer than 2.5" whenever anyone offers them for sale.

quote:

Originally posted by PWS:
http://www.mountainmolds.com

PWS,
And thank you!
Oh boy! Design your own mould with their software. This will get me going!

Uh, I just noticed that per Mountain Molds he only go up to .693" diameter. Dunno if he'll go larger?

1621 grains in lead ... getting close to a quarter pounder (1750 grains), but they do not serve them up at McDonald's, eh?

RIP, make sure the spur plate has a large enough (volume) hole, for the cooling shrinkage. May need to be extra thick.

Keith

Yoo-inz gawna git leyad pwaznin'

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
RIP, make sure the spur plate has a large enough (volume) hole, for the cooling shrinkage. May need to be extra thick.

Keith

Will do.
I will reduce the length of this by "one band" and call it the "Darwin" slug.
It will naturally select either the shooter or the target.

Tried Remington factory 3" 12g slugs today in the H&R/NEF Ultra Slug.
First bore sighted a 4x Simmons by looking down the barrel at the 50-yard target.
Then three one-shot groups with an adjustment between shots got it roughly zeroed.

Then I fired a three-shot group and my son fired a three-shot:



John is not bad for a 23-year-old who has never shot any rifle bigger than a 25-06 deer rifle. He has 30 years to catch up.

I only had 5 of the Remington "Premier" 1-ounce copper sabot slugs, and had to save one to dissect. This shows the difference in quality between Remington's two offerings, even with a Simmons scope (will replace it with a 2.5x Leupold and QRW rings):



The first two shots were touching, just above the bullseye. Then I relaxed the unnecessary deathgrip and the next two went higher.
Recoil is very gentle!
Pathetically tame. Need more kicks!!!
I gotta have this:


1471 grains of lead is 3.362 ounces, and might produce some noticeable recoil if driven fast enough.

What's with the snow plow on the front of that thing..?? Gonna fill that with something??

If you shoot it tail first, it is a hollowpoint-boattail/cuppoint.

If you shoot it nose first, it is an FN solid for deeper penetration.

Lessee, 1471 grains at 1471 fps from a 24" barrel ...

KE in ft-lbs is going to be 1471 cubed and then the constants applied.

Hows about drillin a half inch hole half way in to lighten it up and make it "deform"...

Good idea!
Do it in copper. I'll load it in a 2.5" brass case to fill the 3" chamber, with a compressed load of H50BMG.

That half-inch-diameter x 0.6875" deep cavity will be filled with H50BMG that will continue burning after exit from the muzzle, and possibly produce a rocket-propelled/recoiless rifle.

I will of course have to have the lead slugs too, because I am not satisfied if they do not kick just a little bit.

FIRE!! FIRE!! as Beavis would say!!

If you are Beavis, then who is Butthead?

Sounds like a neat project RIP, may need to make myself something off the Handi-Rifle in shotgun firm! Can't the shotgun barrels on rifle frames take more pressure?

Tyler:
Butthead here. I forget what the pressure for the H&R/NEF is but it is "considerably capable."
I'll have to go study the 12gaFH thread ...

My Ultra Slug is just about all barrel.
24" muzzle diameter is 1.068". Weight is 10.25 lbs. dry, with laminated wood stock. With that 4X Simmons, sling, and slip-on Pachmayr Decelerator pad it weighs 11.5 lbs.
Soaks up recoil and is so well balanced it feels light. Cheap too! My Leupold scope and rings (going on next--gotta have 2 scopes if you have no iron sights) cost more than the shotgun, which was about $240.
Great entertainment value!

Encore is a good platform for that stuff too...

Does TC make a fully rifled 12ga barrel for Encore?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Does TC make a fully rifled 12ga barrel for Encore?

Not sure if they do off the rack now or if ever but their custom shop will make pretty much anything within reason. McGowen also makes Encore barrels...

1471 grain slug weight
1471 fps muzzle velocity
KE = 7067 ft-lbs

Merely spiffy KE.

At what pressure in a 3" chamber?
3.5" chamber?
3.85" chamber?

You might need a really phat stock and pad for that...

May I reccomend the Pachmayr XLT Ultrasoft Magnum Trap in Large...

Ed traded me out of my Savage, why not get one of them?

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Ed traded me out of my Savage, why not get one of them?

I like that idea, and probably will ... never owned a Savage before, about time! That will be an easy one to find also.

Rip...in the same boat. I've got the USH Deluxe, removed factory pad and Gorilla-glued on a Benelli ComfortTec gel pad (but Remington's Super-Cell might be better). Drilled out the stock and installed Benelli mercury recoil reducer, 30mm Ken Ferral rings and Aimpoint 2X; 12+ pounds. Shooting Greg Sappington's 1043 grain slug over 75 grains IMR4227, BP X12X gas seal, 1/4" cork wad and 1/4" felt wad. Can't get good velocity because I think I'm catching the wads, but it ranges from 1200 to 1600 or so, and recoil is sheer brutal.

Encore Pro Hunter is the way to go. It is stronger (around 20,000 vs 35,000psi), but prepare to be $800 deep to begin with, but worth it. Stainless 28" fluted barrel, 1:28 twist vs 1:35 and MUCH better stock, as long as you don't get the thumb-hole version. Problem: about 2-3 pounds lighter.

If you're wondering, fire-lapping or polishing the bore really helps with the USH. Encore is better, but can be improved. It helps when shooting bore-sized lead.

I figure I was doing 25K in my NEF with
brass case, top loads. Good for 8000 ft lbs.
And NEF Ultra slug gun can be had with a
thumbhole stock, that has size to change to
a thick pad and put weight in the butt.
About 4lbs worth. I got mine regular stock
and went to a thumbhole. The 1 to 35 twist
does stabilize up to Greg's ok. Ed

Hey, if Ed can do 8000 ft-lbs in an NEF, then surely I can do 7067 ft-lbs.
Then I will move on to the other excellent suggestions.
Will be looking at TC Encore with a fully rifled slug barrel, and a Savage.
Maybe a falling block someday.

The "Darwin" slug:

Lead .730"/1471gr: SD = 0.394
Copper .729"/1157gr: SD = 0.311

At 1471 fps with a hardened lead slug, a birdie told me it has momentum density suitable for elephant.
Shades of them who were giants.

Sorry for the crude drawing on a paper plate...

to add some versatility to your briliant design how about a slight change to the expanding side to be able to if desired make the expanding side a holder for a soft nose spitzed cast boolit for your long range subsonic crusher.

Just a thought.

boom stick,
Intriquing idea, but I have already submitted the "Darwin" slug preliminary order form to www.brooksmoulds.com, and I did not include provisions for your ballistic tip.
I think a 3.36 ounce lead Darwin is heavy enough without a lead ballistic tip. Maybe for the copper version? Is that what you were thinking?

BTW, this one is supposed to be supersonic at the muzzle to 25 yards anyway. Close enough for elephant.

The 45-70 Govt. will finally meet its better.

Copper or lead but keep it under 1100 fps and see if you can be accurate to 200 yards 1 moa with two tons of energy @ 730 fps if the bullet ends up weighing 1700 grains with the tip.

An interesting idea imho
flat nose hard cast, expanding and spitzer all in one.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/energy.htm

If it gets any bigger you guys can make it steerable with nose camera...

Dave Casey at Rocky Mountain Cartridge has 3.5" brass 12GA hulls, available now, is the gossip.
$80.00 per 10 pieces. Must be good, heavy-duty stuff.

Steve Brooks is quick. He says he can do the mould, and get it done 3 weeks after he has $200 from me.

I sent him this to clarify:



7000 ft-lbs KE should be sufficient for natural selection purposes.

7000 ft-lbs KE should be sufficient for natural selection purposes ...

Because that energy level with a 3.36 ounce slug from an 11.5 pound gun will generate recoil!

Over 250 ft-lbs recoil energy at almost 40 fps recoil velocity may be too wicked for more than one shot by me.

Raising the gun weight to 23 pounds will cut that down to a manageable 125 ft-lbs at about 20 fps.

The Darwin is a natural selector for evolution of heavy shotgun.

$25 extra for the hollowpoint.

I could drill the hollowpoint deeper with a drill press if I can't tolerate a full 1471 grains, reduce it to 1000 grains for plinking loads.

Re-check your calculator RIP - something doesn't add up.

What a relief!