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In my uninformed opinion, which is the kind mostly being expressed here, it makes perfect sense to make sure that bull has at least a couple of years to distribute those obviously good genes. Beyond that, I'll defer to Kevin's infinitely more informed opinion as to what's best for the overall herd in that area. Tomorrow or three years from now that will make a hell of a trophy. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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I hope Kevin continues to post. I do not know him, but we have talked at the shows. He seems to be a good guy. Kevin, would you be so kind as to age the three buffalo in the pictures with a short explanation. These are three that I killed and I would like to learn more as I continue to hunt buffalo. Thanks in advance for your input. Buffalo One: Killed in Omay South Zimbabwe. It was actually shot out of a herd.   Buffalo two: Killed in Omay North Zimbabwe. It was in a herd of about 10-15 buffalo.   Buffalo Three: It was a lone bull taken on Coutada Nine in Mozambique   | |||
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Great bull and lots of different opinions. Kevin is probably one of the foremost experts alive. But then, if we pass all these great bulls, we'd come home empty handed more then on any other species. Thing is - Buff trophy is one of the most valuable, sought after and inexpensive to hunt in Africa when it comes to DG. There lies the problem. Affordability versus quality. You take average guy out of the African equation and operators loose What 60-70-80% of the hunters/income? Same dilemma we face here in States on deer and elk " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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Look, some people believe the Pope - with all his credentials - is God's personal representative on Earth. Billions of non-Catholics disagree. I'm one among those billions, BUT I'm open to the idea, except I want to see scientific proof. (I'm not holding my breath.) I'm not attacking Kevin Robertson (or whomever is posting under the moniker doctari505). I just want to see the scientitic data upon which he's basing his opinion. I'm waiting. Regards, AIU | |||
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The thing is what are the chances that if he does not get shot, ends up being a lion´s meal and not the prolific breeder we would like to believe? | |||
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Well said Mike. I have said it before that there is no civility on this Forum and this will deter people who have a lot to offer from coming here and posting. There is a good saying in Hindi which when translated says "Empty pots make a loud noise"
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I would far rather listen to the voice of Kevin who has spent his entire life in Buffalo country in Africa and the fact of him being a veterinary doctor than some idiot who has gone to Africa for a few months and done some scientific research on buffalo breeding ages!!
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Thanks for the picture and the info Doctari/Steve. This makes perfect sense in a place like Timbavati. The hunts that have been offered on AR for Timbavati have clearly stated the expectations of Buffalo to be shot. This makes its clear to the hunter/purchaser upfront what he or she is being sold. Its time we move to beyond just size in hunting also time to get rid of stupid trophies and awards in hunting. We can't ask consumers of animal products in Asia to give up on desires for animals products (ivory/rhino horns) while at the same time having similar obsessions for animal trophies (size of elephant tusks/width of buffalo horns). Its a wild animals its attributes vary and are random. The main fact is Timbavati discloses up front what hunters can expect to and not to shoot. That is key issue to all parties - hunter, PH, outfitter and booking agent. Mike | |||
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Well there, evidently, a difference of opinion here in the case of the pictured buffalo that caused this little donnybrook. I don’t know Kevin personally but have read a lot of his writings, and consider him as close to an expert as one can get on African animals, and especially Cape buffalo. I must say here that knowing the age of a buffalo is not a sure way of knowing if he has dropped his genes into the calf crop of the area where he lives. That being said I know Oryxhunter1983, and know that he and the A&M veterinary team are not just depending on a certain age to discover the age of those who do the bulk breeding in animals in Africa, but are depending on DNA samples to prove lineage in herds, not opinion. No matter what is said here, DNA doesn’t lie! Kevin Robertson is a very knowledgeable person who has been among cape buffalo herds for much of his life, but that fact, in no way, proves he cannot ever be wrong on certain things. I’m certainly not qualified to say ether of these people is right or wrong, and I doubt anyone else here is either! I’m not a DVM, nor do I have the experience that Kevin R. DVM has, nor do I have the expertise of the A&M DNA team of DVAs. So my opinion is just that OPINION. I freely admit I do not know which of these opinions is correct. In that light, confronted with the buffalo in the picture that started this, I would shoot that buffalo in a heart beat. He seems fully hard bossed, and bald faced, both indications of age to me. You couldn’t pay me to shoot a SCRUM CAP buffalo unless he was about to hit me or someone else in my hunting party, and if I did I’d keep the hide and leave his head in the bush! In my opinion having lived among many types of bovines all my life it is fact that when a cow comes into estrus, any fertile bull that is big enough to top her will breed that cow. That may not include cape buffalo, but is true of every other bovine I’ve come in contact with. Simply because a younger bull may not be dominant enough to win a fight with an older/larger bull, doesn’t mean he has never bread any of the cows in a herd. I see no reason people should shy away from questioning one science over another that is newer! My question is why is it a reason for dissention here among this group of hunters over this! If nobody ever questioned the experts we would still be thinking the earth was flat! Hell guys lets go hunting and leave the fighting to the bar room! Wait till I dig my fox hole! ...................................................  ...  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Beatiful bull. I hope he breeds for years and years. A 12 year old requirement wouldn't hurt my feelings at this point, but it probably would have early on when I really wanted to kill a buffalo. Now, I just like hunting buffalo. And, the couple of old guys I've had the pleasure to take mean more than inches. But that drop is something else. | |||
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I think the 12yr rule has more to do with game management and or at least the possibility of such a great specimen passing on his genes. As it is with the wild or nature many things become out of ones controle and perhaps just like whitetails the young eager bucks do sneak in there from time to time? A Buffalo trophy is a personal taste with myself enjoying deep drops and rock solid boss as opposed to the wider Aussie style Buffalo. If an area is to become sustainable taking off the top ie...10-12yr age stands to reason doesn't it?? It is my hope meaningful discussions such as this continue here on AR and that the freedom of conversation is encouraged with out having hard feelings, we are all passionate about hunting and the future of it!! | |||
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A true expert will not be intimidated by a request for the scientific data or evidence supporting their conclusions or positions. True experts are not intimidated, because they've come to their conclusions based on good and reproducible scientific evidence. True experts do not put themselves in positions to look like fools. Before we conclude, let's wait for a presentation of the evidence and a critical appraisal of the quality of that evidence. AIU | |||
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Exactly! I would also add that I would take Kevin's word any time of day against any so called "professor" doing any sort of "research"on buffalo sitting behind a university desk. There is no question of Kevin's knowledge and expertise in the field. What we are are discussing is that shooting only bulls that are of 12 years of age is not practical today at all. I would guess buffalo are more or less the bread and butter of the dangerous game hunting, and if this rule is applied, I suspect not too many hunters will be willing to pay the price to hunt one. Anyone who has hunted extensively would have shot soft boss bulls. And sitting on an arm chair and pretending that YOU would never do so does not mean much either. A forum is a place of discussion. And any discussion is open to questions. But, at the end of the day, the word of a known expert like Kevin will always hold a lot more weight than an occasional hunter. | |||
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Saeed's right. I've shot soft bossed bulls. I could hunt buffalo and never kill another one and be happy, as long as I was hunting them. My next trip I'm going for boss, age and not necessarily width. But I guarantee I'll have a great time hunting them, whether I pull the trigger or not. | |||
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I'm just guessing here, but I'm gonna guess Kevin isn't particularly "intimidated". "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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Serious question: How does the client feel when the PH tells him he cannot go after that bull? Is the client left wondering .... 'does this PH have some other client in mind, with more money than me'? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Arjun, I swear this isn't Oryxhunter picks on Reddy week, but your above statement is crazy. It's like saying, well, the nurse has been working in this hospital for years, so she probably knows better than the Doctor. You general assumption that someone who's a professor is just some Idiot who's been to Africa is quite disturbing. MAC-thanks for your support of our work, and your statement is correct! You can't argue with DNA...amazingly, lots of people want to make claims about animals/breeding/conservation/diversity/etc which are always unfounded without the DNA statistics to back them up. However, if you live in Africa and are a PH/vet you surely can bypass all science, I mean wtf is science really...just bunches of ideas that are proven through systematic set of standards and generally accepted as truth by the greatest minds that have ever lived. You know, local tribal members and trackers are probably the informed about cape buffalo..their people have been dealing with them for thousands of years, and cape buffalo knowledge has got to be inherited both genetically and through the spoken word...maybe we can get one of them to start posting here!  | |||
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Kevin, How about tying that one up and I'll come see you for him in about 3 or 4 years?  | |||
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The reality is that the DNA record will simply never be available for these wild animals. You have to rely on the subjective. As for the "local tribal members" thoughts - do you really want to know which one would be the most tender? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Most wise Doctors with any mileage will listen to what that seasoned nurse has to say. He'd be a fool not to. Not looking personally to plan any Buffalo Hunts soon but if I did I'd love a Scrum Cap with an Old English Double with a stalk befitting the moment. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Well I can certainly see just some of my PH friends keep well away from this site! But I'll persist for a while in the hopes of trying to educate some of you, and for the good of the buffalo. To answer Mike70560's question here goes. Bull no 1 - Omay bull. In my opinion this bull is in his 11 th yr. I say this because his horn tips are worn blunt, his boss is solid right up to the front but it is not yet 'smooth'. His ears are somewhat torn but not too bad. I'd put him still of breeding age but getting towards the end of his time as a herd bull or breeder. Bull no. 2. This bull is late in his 7 th year. I say this because his horn tips are still sharp and above boss level. Boss hard on top but still soft and 'puffy' along the bottom edge towards the center line. Also his face just looks 'young' and he is not heavily muscled yet, like we see on active breeding bulls. In my opinion he is a pre-breeder. But having said this, in areas where all the breeding bulls have been shot out, (and there certainly are such areas) and where there are no other breeders to 'put him in his place' if he tries to get lucky, he will most definitely breed because he is sexually mature. He just lacks the secondary sexual characteristics of a true breeder. Buffalo three - what a nice bull and I remember the photos from before. I'd put this bull in his 9 th year - most probably late 9. I say this because his boss is solid right to the front but his horn tips are still quite sharp. He has a massively thick, well muscled neck and some facial hair loss from mite infestation. Pity you can't see his ears well but in my opinion this was a bull in his breeding prime. The fact he was a loner does not change this opinion. Being a herd / breeding bull is hard work. Such bulls are always on 'guard duty'. The usually graze at the back of the herd on already trampled grass and spend lots of time fighting off challengers and predators. All this leads to a gradual loss in their body condition and strength. When too much is lost, they are often kicked out of the herd by stronger bulls in fighting trim. Kicked out bulls then take some R&R - usually with other bulls for the safely factor or as loners for a while if confident of their ability to fight off lions, (as I suspect was the case with his fine fellow) until they have regained some weight and their strength. They then re-join the herds by fighting for a place as a herd bull. What this means is that there is a movement of bulls of breeding age in and out of the herds continually. So the fact that a bull is shot out of a bachelor herd does not mean he isn't a breeder. Such herds often contain bulls of all ages - for just sexually mature 6 yr olds to post breeding age dagga boys. For the skeptics out there, the Taylor 1 st molar tooth method of aging buffalo allows us to better determine what buffalo of a certain age class look like. I'll post some photos when I get some time to explain all this. At my last count my wife and I have photos of 8500 different buffalo bulls and I have been aging them all. We also spend a lot of time observing buffalo and get to see what age bulls are doing what. Nothing is set in stone however because environmental factors affect how buffalo look. This is because sexual maturity is a function of body weight, not age. When a buffalo gets to ⅔ of his genetically determined mature body weight he'll reach puberty and become sexually mature. At one of the shows an East African PH cornered me and told me I was wrong with my buffalo age determinations. He said I was a year out. But the area he hunted was very different to where I've been observing buffalo for the past 35 yrs - the Zambezi Valley and now the greater Kruger Park. His area has two rainy seasons a year, the buffalo eat green grass all year round and I'm sure they grow faster as a result, and therefore reach sexual maturity earlier. We know a buffalo's boss develops as a result of testosterone because castrated buffalo bulls never develop a boss, so at the end of the day how a buff looks is determined by the nutrition he has received during his lifetime. I was shown some captive bred bulls recently and asked to age them. To me they looked like they were 9 yrs only with completely solid bosses - but they were just 6! This was because they had lived their whole lives on a diet of nothing else but alpha-alpha! The KNP has recently experienced a number of better than average rainy seasons and this past winter I saw quite a few out of season buffalo calves which tells me that the nutrition has been much better as a result of this. Will this effect our aging attempts - it could. To answer your question Matt - this is the job of the PH and or outfitter. Clients just need to be made aware of the fact that for the sake of trophy quality, only hard-bossed bulls, those at the end of their breeding time or post breeding bulls will be hunted. This is the approach here, and it seems to work. | |||
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If I were a PH/outfitter in Africa and I had to make very serious decisions about what’s hard-bossed and what’s not hard-bossed, I would want to know what the scientifically proven facts are and about how those facts might influence the trophy quality of Southern buffalo. I wouldn’t rely on anecdote, assumptions, opinions, myth, “expert” dogma, and the like. I would look critically at the evidence and the quality of that evidence, before I decided. And, I would do it myself! There is too much is at stake not to. PH’s and outfitters need to know that – and I think most know this – that many safari hunters come to Africa to hunt after saving for a lifetime (~$35,000), dedicating at least two weeks of valuable vacation time, tolerating often incompetent baggage handlers, and enduring a brutal 20,000 mile round trip to and from Africa. This is no small matter – a very serious trip!! There is a ton of emotional energy invested. And then after days of hunting to have the PH/outfitter say…”you can’t shoot that huge buffalo bull, because he’s too young and not hard bossed; and, if I let you shoot him, you’ll be putting the buffalo trophy genome in serious jeopardy for future generations of hunters. Instead, shoot that much smaller hard bossed bull – it’s the real trophy anyway.” (But, Mr. PH/outfitter that small one looks like a management bull to me??? Besides, if we only shoot the hard-bossed bulls, could we be eliminating those bulls with the genetics to become hard bossed, especially if they are actually still breeding cows. Certainly, the cow genetics also contribute to horn size, not just bulls. Nobody is shoothing the cows.) What future hunters are you talking about? Poachers, lions, or worse yet, the next PH/hunter combination, a combo who decides that particular huge bull is now – a few weeks later - hard enough to shoot. Also, worth remembering in regards to "experts" is that there used to be “experts” on witchcraft or “experts” on alchemy (even Isaac Newton spent significant time studying alchemy, and he was a bonafide expert in some things but obviously not everything). Obama is highly published, Harvard educated, an eloquent speaker, and President of the USA – do you believe everything he says? There is reason to question the “experts” – good reason. Real experts know this and rigorously question themselves and their own evidence – they welcome it, embrace it, and that’s why they are real experts. No evidence has been posted here - just anecdote and opinion. True experts seek the truth, and don't let their egos get in the way of that truth. I want to see the evidence and make-up my own mind. You should too. AIU | |||
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I hear ya'!! Try and hang in there. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Kevin, Thanks for the response. I would have guessed the age of each of the three about a year older than you estimated. This is the best picture of the ears of that big buffalo. It surely makes that double looks small.  | |||
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Kevin, From a management standpoint, what are your thoughts on removing breeding age bulls from the herd that will never be more than a 35" or 36" buffalo? | |||
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Consider that Kevin might be the first one to have expressed this particular opinion in a forum and that his thoughts on this matter may have only culminated just over the last year or so. So there is no abundance of scientific volumes and critique available. It was very much the same when Max Planck first spoke about quantum mechanics, and many probably thought he has gone dilly. Santa Claus | |||
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Another interesting thought....if buffalo are breeding randomly outside the "dominance" structure (and doing so at a young age), then does it make sense to cull out even young bulls who lack "potential" rather than setting a blanket 12 year rule on all bulls? | |||
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It might be possible on a farm. Not in the wild. | |||
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Shure as hell not going to get a tip or a rebooking! I'm not an 'expert' but if I'm paying the bill and the bull is legal. I will shoot the one I want. If I think a wide spread vs a hard boss looks better over my fireplace, I can care less what anyone thinks. It's my hunt and my money. I frankly would never shoot some of the broken up bulls that some like here. I do understand that a older bulls will have been hunted and may be a more difficult quarry, but beauty I in the eye of the beholder. | |||
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I disagree. What is to stop a PH from selling cull hunts to clear out end of season quota? If the biologists and parks departments could get on board when setting that quota, it should not just be possible but desirable. | |||
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There are no cull hunts offered in Tanzania, because the way the game department structures the quota. cull hunts are only feasible on a farm, where the operator has complete control on his animals. | |||
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Pretty naive view. Too many examples in life of situations where experience is a far better guide and predictor than anything in a book. Speaking of real experts, I think real experts understand that good judgment often comes with experience not from a journal or a laboratory. Mike | |||
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+1 | |||
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I thought coming home empty handed was part of hunting... | |||
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Thank you for the response! . | |||
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Hang in there Doc & no matter what, don't use the word STANDARD, it can also stir up a poop storm. LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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I dont think it would be a good outcome for the animals, if 'most buffalo hunters would come home empty handed'. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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You are right. The price would go through the roof, which means not many would be able to afford it, which means more outfitters would not be able to survive, which means less hunting on free range concessions. Farm bred animals can be managed anyway their owners wish them to be managed. That is why South African farms thrive. | |||
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Saeed - I am not commenting on Cape buffalo but it is possible to 'manage' some wild species - given good controls, funding and long tenure. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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I believe MANY hunters find this type of dialogue both sanctimonious and hypocritical. Hunting in the wild, whether in the U.S. Or Africa, is NOT game farm hunting like you are leaving some pen raised animal behind to breed in known and controlled conditions. I'm amazed people don't draw the exact analogy between say Whitetails, Elk, and Sheep! You mean to tell me I'm (or anyone) are on a hunt for free ranging Whitetail and i run across a mature 4.5 yr old+ 200" world class absolute buck of 5 lifetimes and I'm supposed to NOT shoot it for the sole purpose that the trophy of a lifetime should be allowed to pass on its genetics (that oh by the way have already been passed on AND existed in the herd to begin with) Or.. A 400" Elk Or.. A 40"+ Sheep Or.... I call BULLS#%* Never in a million years would you see people on their soapbox saying.."you should let that whitetail get past 7+ years past his prime and past his breeding.. I would never shoot a 200" whitetail unless he was past his 300th molar and he had a clear dip in his spine from old age" It's absolutely ridiculous and divisive You know what.. If anyone does want to wait till the deer is past his prime, the ram is broomed off, the herd bull (elk) is cast out.. FINE But do not impose your sense of hunting morality on other hunters and try and shame others for things such as this... We should be saying WOW!! I wish one of us should be so fortunate in our lifetimes to see such a magnificent specimen if the wild and god bless the hunter that would be so fortunate! You sanctimonious types want to not shoot such an animal.. Fine. Don't shoot it, but do not pass judgement on those that would (who represent the vast vast majority of ethical hunters) | |||
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