My last two hunters refrained from shooting very wide buffalo because they were obviously soft. The awareness is there and has been created by the likes of CMS and others.

Therefore a few pointers from a bloke such as Kevin could improve the quality of our trophies and the dynamics of our buffalo herds in the future.

I am for one quite keen as to what else he has to say.

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
Mike- You certainly did shoot a nice buff! Great pics from your website.

Someone once told me, "I don't care what you believe in, this is what's proven and documented."

Again, this comes down to one thing...AGE...and what everyone's opinion of what AGE a trophy should be? At the end of the day, it's all in the eye of the beholder. All I was trying to express here was that the genes that so many think need to be proliferated are already in the herd, even if he's not 12yrs old and hard bossed.

From what I am reading this is not about age of a trophy animal but rather the genetic 'health' of a population. The point being if the majority of breeding males are of inferior genetics (horn size only being one factor among many) then the health of the population will slowly decrease.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
My last two hunters refrained from shooting very wide buffalo because they were obviously soft. The awareness is there and has been created by the likes of CMS and others.

Therefore a few pointers from a bloke such as Kevin could improve the quality of our trophies and the dynamics of our buffalo herds in the future.

I am for one quite keen as to what else he has to say.

WE have, on many occasions, turned down VERY wide, young bulls.

Frankly, I don't think they have the character of an old bull with worn or broken horns.

In fact, camp staff refers to old and broken horned animals - not just buffalo, "for Saeed!"

I see some good points on each side here.

Oryxhunter is certainly correct in his scientific view on things. Even if allowing a bull to reach a certain age prior to hunting him works in one geographical area, that's no guarantee it will work in others.

Doctari is also absolutely correct in that hunters must practice self control in what they chose to hunt. Simply trying to meet an arbitrary and unnatural 'trophy' standard is asinine. Take the trophy you want, not the one you think will impress other people.

What I find most interesting though is this whole internet forum dynamic. While I do agree with Doctari's sentiments on trophy selection, I can't believe he would actually think that the original post wouldn't raise hackles. You can't just come in hot like that and tell people what a trophy should be to them. I found it to be a bit rude and I mostly agree with him!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
Mike- You certainly did shoot a nice buff! Great pics from your website.

Someone once told me, "I don't care what you believe in, this is what's proven and documented."

Again, this comes down to one thing...AGE...and what everyone's opinion of what AGE a trophy should be? At the end of the day, it's all in the eye of the beholder. All I was trying to express here was that the genes that so many think need to be proliferated are already in the herd, even if he's not 12yrs old and hard bossed.

From what I am reading this is not about age of a trophy animal but rather the genetic 'health' of a population. The point being if the majority of breeding males are of inferior genetics (horn size only being one factor among many) then the health of the population will slowly decrease.

Matt

as a long time registered cattle breeder--

You have caught the essence of the discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
From what I am reading this is not about age of a trophy animal but rather the genetic 'health' of a population. The point being if the majority of breeding males are of inferior genetics (horn size only being one factor among many) then the health of the population will slowly decrease.

At which point it becomes quite clear that shooting a whole mess of even young bulls of inferior genetics will have MUCH more impact on the herd health than refraining from shooting this bull for two or three more years.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
From what I am reading this is not about age of a trophy animal but rather the genetic 'health' of a population. The point being if the majority of breeding males are of inferior genetics (horn size only being one factor among many) then the health of the population will slowly decrease.

At which point it becomes quite clear that shooting a whole mess of even young bulls of inferior genetics will have MUCH more impact on the herd health than refraining from shooting this bull for two or three more years.

Well equally important long term I would say. If what Doctari says is true this big bad-boy is a breeding bull and keeping the inferior and younger bulls at bay. Doctari also identified those inferior bulls and I take it he WOULD like to get rid of them but from what I gather the problem is lack of permits to make that happen, in the Greater Kruger.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:


Next time you hunt buff if the operator cannot put you onto a hard bossed bull then insist that you would want your money back.

I wonder how many outfitters that would work with?

Just out of curiosity how old would you age this buff?

No idea how old, definitely over 12.

But, what a wonderful trophy.

It has great character, beats the daylights out of those SCI glorified buffalo with wide horns!

Excellent heads Ozzie - those are certainly the wickedest horns if they hook you!

Look like management bulls to me.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Just out of curiosity how old would you age this buff?

About as old as they get.

What is the story there? You have shot him in the centre of the boss and one photo is in the dark?

I know it's different, but I was told about a 13" spike while deer hunting and that was what I wanted to take. Not only was he a danger fighting other bucks, but he was also breeding his "inferior" genes.

How much of our trophy desires are dictated to by the parameters laid out by SCI measurements and Rowland Ward?

Reading the posts on this thread it appears to me these parameters have a very definite affect?

Ozhunter - not too sure where that wonderful old bull was hunted but if he was shot in an area with similar environmental condition to the Zambezi Valley I'd put him as older than 13 yrs, but his face does not exhibit the signs of being really old which would put him at 15 +, so 14 would be my estimate. But what a great trophy - well done, that is now a proper old dagga boy. A picture of his front teeth would help a lot, his 1 st molars would be even better!! I bet it was a really great hunt as well.

How many of us here shouldn't have bred at all?

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
How many of us here shouldn't have bred at all?

All politicians, lawyers and bankers to start with

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
How many of us here shouldn't have bred at all?

Probably not, but it is so much fun!

Would you mind giving an age opinion on these two also?



From Mthimkulu



From Letaba

Lovely old buff.

53 years in the first pic....58 in the second. Probably past prime breeding age.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Would you mind giving an age opinion on these two also?



From Mthimkulu



From Letaba

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
53 years in the first pic....58 in the second. Probably past prime breeding age.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Would you mind giving an age opinion on these two also?



From Mthimkulu



From Letaba

Ouch! The brutality!

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

Ouch! The brutality!

Stand tall and proud brother...it's all good!!!

Mthimkulu - at least 13 yrs
Letaba at least 12 yrs
Both great bulls, well done.

Kevin, if I saw that Bull in a area where I had full control over what gets hunted, I would not allow him to be taken.

quote:

Originally posted by doctari505:
Mthimkulu - at least 13 yrs
Letaba at least 12 yrs
Both great bulls, well done.

Thank you very much Sir.

quote:

Originally posted by spear:
Kevin, if I saw that Bull in a area where I had full control over what gets hunted, I would not allow him to be taken.

Spear I think that is the gist of the thread. Basically try and identify the breeding bulls and leave them alone. However sometimes it is not as simple as that.