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What Happens To SA Hunting With The New Farm Grab Push?
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Could the new land grab jeopardize the hunting industry in SA? It seems it would be suicidal but so does taking productive farmland and handing it over to folks who know nothing of farming. This certainly was a disaster in Zimbabwe and many in the hunting industry there lost their farms and hunting operations.

So will South African hunting suffer the same outcome? Seems the issue will be the definition of a "Farm" and who wants the land. Would be interesting to hear feedback from our SA operators.


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I have some inquiries out and will report back.

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Posts: 11525 | Location: LAS VEGAS, NV USA | Registered: 04 August 2002Reply With Quote
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If they go ahead with it like Zimbabwe, it will take a much shorter time to affect hunting than it did in Zimbabwe.

A lot more hunting is done on private farms in South Africa.

Very sad indeed!

This is a loose loose situation.


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Originally posted by Saeed:
If they go ahead with it like Zimbabwe, it will take a much shorter time to affect hunting than it did in Zimbabwe.

A lot more hunting is done on private farms in South Africa.

Very sad indeed!

This is a loose loose situation.


Those are my thoughts also. I also wonder if there will be a banned list for US citizens, like there is in Zimbabwe, if this moves forward.


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If the situation causes the food crisis as someone suggested, there won’t be any animals to hunt anyway.
 
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Some folks have asked me if this could happen in Namibia and the fact is, it already happened and we are on the other side of it. When Namibia won its independence from South Africa in 1990, the government immediately went about resettlement through the Communal Conservancy program. Historic lands were returned to communities and every time farmland goes on sale, it must first be offered to the government for fair market purchase and resettlement. After 28 years, the process is largely complete. Today, black ownership of farm, cattle, and hunting land is extensive throughout Namibia.

Planning for the future and establishing a controlled process made all the difference in Namibia.


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Originally posted by Opus1:
Some folks have asked me if this could happen in Namibia and the fact is, it already happened and we are on the other side of it. When Namibia won its independence from South Africa in 1990, the government immediately went about resettlement through the Communal Conservancy program. Historic lands were returned to communities and every time farmland goes on sale, it must first be offered to the government for fair market purchase and resettlement. After 28 years, the process is largely complete. Today, black ownership of farm, cattle, and hunting land is extensive throughout Namibia.

Planning for the future and establishing a controlled process made all the difference in Namibia.


I predicted this very thing was coming to RSA within 20 years on this forum years back and got called everything but a sentient being.

Don't count on Namibia being any different. The Chi-Coms are behind it and have the corrupt black leaders in their hip pockets. Hell, N Korea already had Zimbabwe jumping through hoops.

It's long past time to withdraw any aid to these southern African countries and cut them loose. As to Namibia, the problem is just postponed about 5-10 years. It's coming.


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The saving grace for Namibia is there's not much there for anyone to want. The Uranium mine will be shut down in 2021. There is a little bit of Cobalt and some low grade Copper but not enough to attract much attention and De Beers already has a lock on all the diamond mines. In addition, the Namibian government did a good job of running the North Koreans out of the country so there is not much to fight over unless you really, really, really like sand.

Namibia isn't perfect, but it is a loooong sight better than the rest of Africa. Again, that's a very low bar...

The good news is, the hunting industry is very well protected in Namibia and I don't see that changing any time soon.


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It seems the situation in Namibia is not stable and quite similar to RSA. From a 2017 article by some Swedish bleeding heart professor:


"Redistribution is based on a principle called ”willing seller – willing buyer”. It gives the government a preferential right to buy farms at market value. The land is supposed to be reallocated to historically disadvantaged people, but that has rarely happened.

What has happened is that members of the new political elite got precedence as buyers. As early as the mid-1990s, observers remarked sarcastically that land reform had been accomplished since most members of the cabinet now owned private farms .

Only very little land has been purchased for the purpose of accommodating the landless. By the mid-1990s, the authorities had bought only around 100,000 hectares. By the turn of the millennium the figure had risen to 341,000 hectares of 54 farms.

The results of resettlement projects have been sobering. Most new settlers remain dependent on food aid. They did not get the support they needed to become self-sufficient and remained unable to achieve the minimum objective of secure livelihoods. All too often, those who were resettled kept relying on government support. The rural infrastructure has collapsed. Strikingly, land reform is neither mentioned in Namibia’s official poverty reduction strategy, which was approved by the cabinet in 1998, nor in the National Poverty Reduction Action Programme for 2001 to 2005."

"It is indisputable, however, that the present distribution of land is basically a result of German colonial rule. It is a colonial legacy. 
In view of growing dissatisfaction among sections of the people, Namibia’s government has indicated it is prepared to step up a gear. Among other things, it plans to take a closer look at some constitutional clauses, re-assessing whether land transfers must always be voluntary, for example."


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Posts: 2415 | Location: Texas | Registered: 07 June 2003Reply With Quote
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I am a farmer in SA. Things are not looking good. SA is a big country but you cannot compare it to Namibia because there is more than 55 million people in SA (50 million blacks ) compared to only 2.4 million in Namibia ,so the tide is completely against us. White farmers are brutally killed each week and the land issue is just being used as excuse to hide corruption and incompetence and to win votes.

Back to hunting, nobody is sure how things will go at the moment but I can tell you one thing for sure that poaching is escalating at an alarming rate throughout the whole country. Wire snares are set, they come onto farms at night with packs of dogs that can be 20 to 30 strong and kill anything they can lay their hands on. Just last week in the Tom Burke / Swartwater area a sable bull was cornered by poachers dogs at night and its heels was slit and just left there...…..I'm afraid at this rate there wont be much left in SA in 20 years time...…..I hope I am wrong but I am seeing it with my own eyes daily...
 
Posts: 108 | Location: Mooketsi& Phalaborwa Limpopo Province RSA | Registered: 13 August 2012Reply With Quote
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Russ, Thank you for the post.
 
Posts: 1951 | Location: Kamloops, BC | Registered: 09 November 2015Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ Gould:
It seems the situation in Namibia is not stable and quite similar to RSA. From a 2017 article by some Swedish bleeding heart professor:


"Redistribution is based on a principle called ”willing seller – willing buyer”. It gives the government a preferential right to buy farms at market value. The land is supposed to be reallocated to historically disadvantaged people, but that has rarely happened.

What has happened is that members of the new political elite got precedence as buyers. As early as the mid-1990s, observers remarked sarcastically that land reform had been accomplished since most members of the cabinet now owned private farms .

Only very little land has been purchased for the purpose of accommodating the landless. By the mid-1990s, the authorities had bought only around 100,000 hectares. By the turn of the millennium the figure had risen to 341,000 hectares of 54 farms.

The results of resettlement projects have been sobering. Most new settlers remain dependent on food aid. They did not get the support they needed to become self-sufficient and remained unable to achieve the minimum objective of secure livelihoods. All too often, those who were resettled kept relying on government support. The rural infrastructure has collapsed. Strikingly, land reform is neither mentioned in Namibia’s official poverty reduction strategy, which was approved by the cabinet in 1998, nor in the National Poverty Reduction Action Programme for 2001 to 2005."

"It is indisputable, however, that the present distribution of land is basically a result of German colonial rule. It is a colonial legacy. 
In view of growing dissatisfaction among sections of the people, Namibia’s government has indicated it is prepared to step up a gear. Among other things, it plans to take a closer look at some constitutional clauses, re-assessing whether land transfers must always be voluntary, for example."



Russ, Henning Melber who wrote the articled is a member of SWAPO, the ruling party in Namibia. He's a little biased on the subject, but even he admits that farmland redistribution should be held separately from the Communal Concession resettlement program which has been very successful - at least in returning the land to the rightful owners.

Most of the push for farmland is largely subsided in favor of black ownership/participation within Namibian corporations. This is mainly because of the revelation that handing over farms isn't productive and requires a lot of work. However, demanding black participation in a company on the other hand is a lot easier. So that's the new mantra within the government. What started out as the Black Economic Empowerment bill (failed) has became the New Equitable Economic Empowerment Framework (NEEEF) which is contemplating how to secure ownership within existing companies. However, they are quickly learning that doesn't happen without massive capital investment and the government is currently broke. So all the nifty ideas are meeting dead ends.

But all that has little to do with the Conservancy hunting concessions and private game farms in Namibia. Fortunately, Namibia is not blessed with a lot of arable lands. Most of the private game farms were once cattle farms and not ag land so they should be protected from any takeover proposals. Furthermore, tourism and hunting dollars far exceed agricultural profits so it would be suicidal to mess with that. So far, the government is hugely supportive of hunting revenues. It appears that hunting will be well preserved in Namibia for the foreseeable future.


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Sickening.
I have hunted SA twice and had been thinking about another trip there.
Good luck to you SA people that are dealing with this horrendous situation.


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Posts: 2103 | Location: Colorado  | Registered: 08 December 2006Reply With Quote
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The land-grabbing issue and systematical killing of white farmers in RSA has been brought up a number of times in the recent past but denied by the artificially blind patriotic types.

The truth is now forcefully emerging in the form of facts and the tune is changing; let's face it, when you have types like Malema and his horde of anti-white followers, as possible candidate to the Presidency, things will really take a turn in RSA and the outcome will pale against what happened in Zimbabwe under Mugabe.
 
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Originally posted by fulvio:
The land-grabbing issue and systematical killing of white farmers in RSA has been brought up a number of times in the recent past but denied by the artificially blind patriotic types.

The truth is now forcefully emerging in the form of facts and the tune is changing; let's face it, when you have types like Malema and his horde of anti-white followers, as possible candidate to the Presidency, things will really take a turn in RSA and the outcome will pale against what happened in Zimbabwe under Mugabe.


Have to hand it to Uncle Bob he was relatively civilized and non violent in his theft and destruction of white property in zim. What will happen if there is racial violence in South Africa is scary.

As a very wise zim ph (wise in the ways of zim) told me what do you call a black man with an ak47 in Africa - SIR.

Mike


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Well, maybe Trump will say something to SA government, maybe not, but I hope he does


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@Beretta682E quote" relatively civilized and non violent"

What planet are you on?
 
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Even if you set aside the numerous random beatings, murders & the genocide then Mad Bob was still an utterly ruthless bastard but I suspect Madman Malema will be at least as bad & as much as I hate to say it, I reckon Malema will one day be President (probably for life) Frowner


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Have to hand it to Uncle Bob he was relatively civilized and non violent in his theft and destruction of white property in zim.

You have GOT to be fuggin' kidding, right?


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Posts: 7089 | Location: Orange Park, Florida. USA | Registered: 22 March 2001Reply With Quote
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There are a whole lot of dead bodies that would strongly disagree that Uncle Bob has been nonviolent.

It's great to have an opinion, but better if it's an informed opinion.


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Originally posted by jorge:
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Have to hand it to Uncle Bob he was relatively civilized and non violent in his theft and destruction of white property in zim.

You have GOT to be fuggin' kidding, right?


No

Look at what he did to his black citizen

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gukurahundi

How many did his fifth brigade kill between 1982-1985?

He was invited to the White House and 10 Downning Street in that timeframe as a official head of state.


Uncle Bob was and is a war criminal. No one has ever held him accountable.

He was relatively civilized and non violent towards zim white population whose land and property he stole and destroyed when compared to what he did towards his black population on whom he was outright genocidal is some area.


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Originally posted by Beretta682E:

Have to hand it to Uncle Bob he was relatively civilized and non violent in his theft and destruction of white property in zim.

Mike


The people I know in Zim who were removed from their land and had it stolen would definitely disagree.


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Originally posted by Lhook7:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:

Have to hand it to Uncle Bob he was relatively civilized and non violent in his theft and destruction of white property in zim.

Mike


The people I know in Zim who were removed from their land and had it stolen would definitely disagree.


I know 3 people whose farms were taken.

It was a terrible theft and crime.

But there were not 1000 dead people along the way. Peterhouse and other private schools still operated and one could walk around zim without fear of violence.

The theft in zim was a state sanctioned act. A stupid economic policy by a criminal and genocidal regime. But look at what the same regime did relative to the way it treated its black citizens. It was genocidal to its black citizens.

Mike


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Around Bulawayo I know lots of farmers who were removed from their farms. While they were not harmed beyond a few beatings, their staff was raped and murdered by the droves. Close to 40,000 people were murdered in the Matabeleland province alone.

So pretty silly to say since everyone wasn't murdered, that the process was peaceful and civilized or warranted.


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Originally posted by Opus1:
Around Bulawayo I know lots of farmers who were removed from their farms. While they were not harmed beyond a few beatings, their staff was raped and murdered by the droves.

So pretty silly to say since everyone wasn't murdered, that the process was peaceful and civilized or warranted.


Opus you are a fucking degenerate troll and liar.

Where did I ever say it was warranted.

Go back to trolling you fucking loser.

Mike


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Grow up Mike.


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Originally posted by Opus1:
Grow up Mike.


I have a low threshold for liars and trolls.

You meet both of them.

Self claimed famous Namibian hunter and operator with 18k post on AR but too ashamed to provide a single link to hunting report, picture or client.

Maybe you are scared Uncle Bob goons will beat you up in Namibia.

Mike


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Posts: 9612 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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"Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts."


You should follow your own advice...


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quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by Opus1:
Grow up Mike.


I have a low threshold for liars and trolls.

You meet both of them.

Self claimed famous Namibian hunter and operator with 18k post on AR but too ashamed to provide a single link to hunting report, picture or client.

Maybe you are scared Uncle Bob goons will beat you up in Namibia.

Mike


But you do not need to go overboard with your insults.

Not on these forums anyway.

We allow a lot of leeway on the political forum, but would prefer some sort of decorum elsewhere.


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Well said Saeed. I would totally support any effort to stomp on the anger management clients and so many who think they have a constitutional right to type, even though they refuse to exercise their right to "think before they type".

Even if it cost me my ability to post, it would make reading the posts for actual information, much more pleasant and productive.

Carry on.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by Lhook7:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:

Have to hand it to Uncle Bob he was relatively civilized and non violent in his theft and destruction of white property in zim.

Mike


The people I know in Zim who were removed from their land and had it stolen would definitely disagree.


I know 3 people whose farms were taken.

It was a terrible theft and crime.

But there were not 1000 dead people along the way. Peterhouse and other private schools still operated and one could walk around zim without fear of violence.

The theft in zim was a state sanctioned act. A stupid economic policy by a criminal and genocidal regime. But look at what the same regime did relative to the way it treated its black citizens. It was genocidal to its black citizens.

Mike


You should take the time to explain to those three people how lucky they are. I’m sure they’ll appreciate the sentiment.


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No matter how it is done.

Taking away something that belongs to others by force is just WRONG!

Sadly, countries in the West tend to pick and choose who they don’t just turn a blind eye to, but actively support!


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Posts: 48629 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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I was hunting on a farm near Bulawayo in 2003 when the war vets invaded. They came to the farmhouse with pangas and demanded the owner leave. My PH kept an FN FAL in his truck. We walked around the corner of the house to his Land Rover( yep, a 1953 SWB), got it and my rifle and returned to the front of the house. The vets quickly decide maybe another farm would work. I shudder to think what these “non violent” types would have done to the farmer and his wife....
 
Posts: 7868 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 28 October 2006Reply With Quote
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I fly out of SA this morning and the land situation is the talk around the camp fire. I saw the telivised speeches and interviews of those wanting to take the land. A sad crime against (white) humanity that will go unchallenged in the world court. Some feel all is lost. Some believe a few farms will fall and there will be violence in revenge for the apartheid years. All seem to agree the farm prices have fallen to zero as no one will want to buy them.

There are only two ways to defend oneself against this, but at 2-4% of the population, the whites can't fight and the whites can't vote. The white farmers I know are hoping for the best but sliently making a plan if all goes bad.

One thought is to bond the farms. Take out a bond and put the money overseas. Pay the bond's interest and survive and if the land is taken then one the money out of the country. It has been said a farm in bond won't be taken as the new owners won't be able to pay and the banking crises that would result would be too devistating for the country. Land owners are putting money overseas.
Cal


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Posts: 5832 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With Quote
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The flaw in that idea is that converting ZAR to hard currency and/or getting it out of the country & under the watchful eyes of the South African reserve bank isn't easy to say the very least.

Even opening an overseas bank account is a challenge. Frowner


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Posts: 12410 | Location: Retired from the Professional Hunting field in Africa and now taken the gap from South Africa and emigrated to peaceful Portugal  | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by shakari:
The flaw in that idea is that converting ZAR to hard currency and/or getting it out of the country & under the watchful eyes of the South African reserve bank isn't easy to say the very least.

Even opening an overseas bank account is a challenge. Frowner


At the present you get asked a whole lot of questions and in some cases demand supporting evidence of funds entering your account, let alone why funds going out.
 
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Heck, is this the PF?

There are no sure things in Africa it seems.


I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills.

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quote:
Originally posted by shakari:
The flaw in that idea is that converting ZAR to hard currency and/or getting it out of the country & under the watchful eyes of the South African reserve bank isn't easy to say the very least.

Even opening an overseas bank account is a challenge. Frowner



It is just as difficult to open a foreign account from anywhere to anywhere these days. International commerce and banking is fraught with a lot of eyes on both sides watching you.


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Posts: 18891 | Location: Occupying Little Minds Rent Free | Registered: 04 October 2012Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Opus1:
quote:
Originally posted by shakari:
The flaw in that idea is that converting ZAR to hard currency and/or getting it out of the country & under the watchful eyes of the South African reserve bank isn't easy to say the very least.

Even opening an overseas bank account is a challenge. Frowner



It is just as difficult to open a foreign account from anywhere to anywhere these days. International commerce and banking is fraught with a lot of eyes on both sides watching you.



There is some truth to your comment about the difficulty in opening an account these days. I'm a banker, and the amount of information the Federal Government requires us to gather for every new deposit account has expanded greatly over the last few years. What used to be a 2 page New Account Application form has now grown to 7 pages, all due to information required by the government. Some of it deals with the cannabis industry (illegal to bank them or anyone involved in it) and internet gambling, but the amount of information the Federal Government requires these days is substantial. That also makes it more difficult to open accounts for foreign individuals or businesses. I think the best options for South Africans hoping to establish an overseas account probably exist in Europe or certain islands in the Caribbean like the Cayman Islands.
 
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If you're running a hunting operation in Africa it provides a way of not getting $$ out of the country but not ever bringing them into the country. Several years ago I did a hunt with an operator I had never dealt with in the past. The deposit was paid to his US booking agent and no payment was made to the operator when the hunt was done. When I returned to the US I received a bill from the booking agent so the $$ never went to Africa.

I had offered to pay the operator at the end of the hunt but he declined. "Just pay my agent when you get the bill" was his response. I asked him if he ever had any problems collecting from past hunters and he said he didn't. This requires a degree of trust on the outfitters part but by in large I've found hunters, especially those on AR, to be a honorable bunch.


Tom Z

NRA Life Member
 
Posts: 1848 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: 07 January 2005Reply With Quote
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