quote:

Originally posted by luan:
Saeed

That is very true and its a very bad apple on our side but hopefully everybody will see there are some great guys in south africa that will do everything to get clients the whole safari deal just not the top trophies.

Luan

I know a number of PHs in South Africa that I have utmost trust in.

I just wish PHASA would so something about the really bad apples.

I know, the excuse we hear is that they are NOT members of PHASA, and I am not sure what can actually be done about them.

For the first time in my life, I find myself in COMPLETE agreement with all of the nutballs posting on the YouTube site. What an absolute embarrassment!

It is really sad to see this video clip, however I think this type of 'hunting' is happening all the time. That buff reminded me how dairy cows chase shotgunners when they intrude on their green pastures....

quote:

Originally posted by AR MAN:


"...I am willing to take you under my wing and show you the way that a real bow hunter hunts and shoots ethically and humanly!

Pm myself if needed"

Regards

AR MAN,

I appreciate you kind offer, but we live so far apart that it would not be practical.

Regards, AIU

AIU - it is possible I came off a little to strong, however, I'm passionate about my archery hunting and certainly didn't want to be labeled with the brush you were using.

I suppose being a bow hunter one has a higher cense of responsibility not only with the equipment we use but also to know the limits of our abilities.

Unlike rifle hunting shooting close to the vitals is never good enough and the questions of taking an ethical shot comes into play.

I would hope those that call themselves bow hunters feel they have accepted the responsibilities that come with shooting a bow and embrace the intimacy it brings!

I wish yourself all the best in your future adventures and look forward to reading your reports!

Regards

An appropriately disciplined and accomplished bow hunter, gets my respect....
since the convenience of firearms have made me somewhat lazy as a hunter.

Well.....

It's all okay because the "hunter" almost died. He says he almost fell out of the truck so it was a dangerous hunt after all!

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
This video brings up the issue of bow hunting in general, but especially of large game animals like buffalo, elephant, eland, wildebeest, and the like.

I'm not prepared to render a judgment.

Besides, rifle hunters wound buffalo and other game too. We are not without some moral culpability for this problem.

I'm guilty of wounding game - both by rifle and bow. I've tried my best to keep it to a minimum, but when I've done it, I feel sick to my stomach, and pray that I can follow-up and collect the animal.

Having hunted with both rifle and bow, in my experience it's more easy to wound and loose game hunting with a bow.

I don't have the necessary skills to hunt buffalo or elephant with a bow, and thus far, I haven't. I probably never will.

I've heard about hunts of buffalo and elephant with bows that were successful, but I've often wondered about all the unsuccessful hunts.....I just don't think it's fair dinkum to hunt these size animals with bows..............

quote:

Originally posted by Blair 338RUM:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
This video brings up the issue of bow hunting in general, but especially of large game animals like buffalo, elephant, eland, wildebeest, and the like.

I'm not prepared to render a judgment.

Besides, rifle hunters wound buffalo and other game too. We are not without some moral culpability for this problem.

I'm guilty of wounding game - both by rifle and bow. I've tried my best to keep it to a minimum, but when I've done it, I feel sick to my stomach, and pray that I can follow-up and collect the animal.

Having hunted with both rifle and bow, in my experience it's more easy to wound and loose game hunting with a bow.

I don't have the necessary skills to hunt buffalo or elephant with a bow, and thus far, I haven't. I probably never will.

I've heard about hunts of buffalo and elephant with bows that were successful, but I've often wondered about all the unsuccessful hunts.....I just don't think it's fair dinkum to hunt these size animals with bows..............

Why not?

I bet a good arrow shot in the vitals will kill both an elephant and a buffalo just as easily as a rifle.

I have seen animals, even the lowly impala, take a 375 caliber bullet that had gone the whole length of his body, walk around, then sit down for a while before he died.

To respond to a couple of points raised above.

I bowhunted for years and took some great trophies in Namibia with a bow. I've wounded two animals, one was recovered eventually, but one was lost. Both made me sick. But, I had far more animals, including kudu, gemsbok, and wildebeest drop within sight. A good bow set-up, with good, properly weighted arrows and a good broadhead are every bit as deadly as any rifle on non-dangerous game. I never shot from a gari.

When I turned my attention to buffalo, elephant, etc., my better half suggested that she would prefer that I not stick things that might kill me with a sharp stick, at least until the children were out of college. I really couldn't argue with that, so I switched back to a rifle. Lord knows when my children will end their formal education -- they show no signs of it.

That all said, I believe it's bad form to shoot out of a car. I believe it's bad form to shoot something with a weapon that won't finish the job if things go wrong. And, I believe it's inexcusable to make an animal suffer or put trackers and a PH at risk unneccessarily. Just my opinion.

I still like bows and think they are a great option for non-dangerous game, but haven't hunted with one in years.

quote:

I believe it's bad form to shoot something with a weapon that won't finish the job if things go wrong.

Its also bad form to have a hunter who has suitable weapon that can finish the job,
but the actual hunter is incapable, which then puts them pretty much in the same boat as a bow hunter who
in situations has to rely on another person supporting with a rifle.

Stuff-ups are far from exclusive to bow-hunters.

As I've said before, there are some minimum legal cal. requirements for game, but no legal minimum skill level requirements
for recreational hunters...>>.. so, If one has the money and a legal cal./weapon, one can easily buy a hunt no matter how inept
one might actually be.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Blair 338RUM:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
This video brings up the issue of bow hunting in general, but especially of large game animals like buffalo, elephant, eland, wildebeest, and the like.

I'm not prepared to render a judgment.

Besides, rifle hunters wound buffalo and other game too. We are not without some moral culpability for this problem.

I'm guilty of wounding game - both by rifle and bow. I've tried my best to keep it to a minimum, but when I've done it, I feel sick to my stomach, and pray that I can follow-up and collect the animal.

Having hunted with both rifle and bow, in my experience it's more easy to wound and loose game hunting with a bow.

I don't have the necessary skills to hunt buffalo or elephant with a bow, and thus far, I haven't. I probably never will.

I've heard about hunts of buffalo and elephant with bows that were successful, but I've often wondered about all the unsuccessful hunts.....I just don't think it's fair dinkum to hunt these size animals with bows..............

Why not?

I bet a good arrow shot in the vitals will kill both an elephant and a buffalo just as easily as a rifle.

I have seen animals, even the lowly impala, take a 375 caliber bullet that had gone the whole length of his body, walk around, then sit down for a while before he died.

Saeed,

With respect;

I've seen plenty of local game here in Australia running around with bloody arrows sticking out of them, like pincushions. And PG in Africa. They just DON'T kill the animals well.

Not to mention a rotten, noisy, continually barking dog that a mate of mine arrowed out of his apartment window, the thing ran for a couple of hundred yards, howling like the Hound of the Baskervilles! It was a most indiscreet and extremely unpleasant affair for all concerned, especially the miserable dog, which left a blood trail a blind man could follow...

I think hunting pigs with knives and dogs for instance gives the animal a much swifter end than a stinking rotten arrow.

I admire the stalking skills required to be a successful bow hunter but that's about it.

As for Impala, they are one of the toughest animals in Africa...........I've seen plenty of them hit well with 300 magnums refusing to die. They are TOUGH.

As rifle season is upon us I am reminded of several sightings of wounded deer with a leg hanging. You would be absolutely shocked if there were actual stats to go along with wounded rifle shot deer!! I have already been told of two stories of little bit of blood but didn't recover! Don't kid yourself a white tail buck in the rut is essentially on steroids and a non lethal hit from even a 300 means potentially a lost animal. Nocking on a big piece of wood now I have never lost a deer elk moose bear to a bow shot yet and the furthest an animal has gone was just under 100yrds. My waterbuck last year was shot with a 375 with a 300 gr expanding bulled and made it 100 yrd.

There is simply less margin for shot placement error with a bow and a greater learning curve with regards to the proper tuning of a bow. It makes a huge difference if your arrows fly true and "strait as an arrow lol" for pass threw penetration on larger animals or hits at greater distance! I believe Thor recently had a successful bow hunter and perhaps can add to this thread?

Either way I love sport of both rifle and archery and both can be enjoyed by all!!



Good hunting gentlemen

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
...
I don't know how to paste this video up but someone in South Africa needs to make a noise about this. No way can this be vaguely construed as hunting. Disgusting.

I think it will just add to what a lot of people think that is par for the course for South Africa high fence/canned hunting.

I am guessing that if our brave hairy chested hunter would have fallen out of the truck. That Ferdinand the gentle but hungry bull would have licked him to death.

IMO, this event fits best with a cull "hunt". The two bulls had broken into an off-limits area, both were on testosterone overdrive, and adrenalin-pumped to the max. Something had to be done before they started breeding the cows - they were not likely the game rancher's "herd" bulls.

What are the ethics and rules for cull "hunts"? Are there any? Personally, I don't considered culling the same as sports hunting.

I'm not sure what the PH/game rancher meant by "in the interest of sport". Does it mean..."let's make this a bit more difficult than just blasting him with a gun"?

What was the client's investment? Was he paying full price, partial price, or what?

There are many issues about this event that are unclear. In any event, it is not in our best interests to post it like it is on the internet.

This is absolutely pathetic !! The PH looks like Bertus Gerhardt of Dumukwa Safaris in Alldays area. www.dumukwa.com

quote:

Originally posted by kallie404:
...The PH looks like Bertus Gerhardt of Dumukwa Safaris in Alldays area. www.dumukwa.com

If correct, this Safaris company makes the following recommendations regard DG bow hunting...

"Recommended broad heads are Muzzies, Thunderheads and Rocky Mountain Titanium with a weight of approximately 100 – 125 grain.

Shafts should be carbon-aluminium or carbon-aluminium composite.

For Dangerous game we would suggest your bow to be a minimum of 80 pounds.

Due to the thickness of these animals’ skins and the anatomy of the ribs, we would suggest that you use 2 blade broad heads."

Although these recommendations are not legally binding, the client appears to be using a 3-blade broadhead; and thus, breaking their own recommendations. Not good.

Also, the fact that this buffalo was adrenalin-pumped could have made him more difficult to bring down. Could it affect arrow penetration?

quote:

Originally posted by AR MAN:
As rifle season is upon us I am reminded of several sightings of wounded deer with a leg hanging. You would be absolutely shocked if there were actual stats to go along with wounded rifle shot deer!! I have already been told of two stories of little bit of blood but didn't recover! Don't kid yourself a white tail buck in the rut is essentially on steroids and a non lethal hit from even a 300 means potentially a lost animal. Nocking on a big piece of wood now I have never lost a deer elk moose bear to a bow shot yet and the furthest an animal has gone was just under 100yrds. My waterbuck last year was shot with a 375 with a 300 gr expanding bulled and made it 100 yrd.

There is simply less margin for shot placement error with a bow and a greater learning curve with regards to the proper tuning of a bow. It makes a huge difference if your arrows fly true and "strait as an arrow lol" for pass threw penetration on larger animals or hits at greater distance! I believe Thor recently had a successful bow hunter and perhaps can add to this thread?

Either way I love sport of both rifle and archery and both can be enjoyed by all!!



Good hunting gentlemen

Good points, AR MAN

Ackley Improved User you are full of SHIT !!i do bowhunting too and have never waited more than max 15 min before looking for my animals taken With a bow and normally you find them within 20-200 meters !where do you have Your info from ? That info is 110 % wrong
That video is disgusting and i hope sombody finds out who the outfitter/ph and hunter is so they can be famous and so nowbody will book with them ever .

quote:

Also, the fact that this buffalo was adrenalin-pumped could have made him more difficult to bring down. Could it affect arrow penetration?

Being upset that no hay is falling off the back of the truck is a little different to being adrenalin pumped.

For Donner,

January 28, 2013 Printed in Field & Stream Mag.

Field and Stream Poll: How Long Should You Wait To Blood Trail a Bow Buck?

by Scott Bestul


When all is right in the world, recovering a bow-killed buck is as simple as walking to the spot where you watched him tip over. Just about every other situation, however, is complicated by a variety of factors: the suspected shot placement, impending weather and temperature, the presence of predators….

“How long?” can indeed be one of the toughest questions faced by a bowhunter.

So here’s the scenario: You’re on an early-season whitetail hunt. With about a half hour of legal light left, a nice buck walks into your shooting lane at 25 yards. Your shot looks to be in the center of the deer vertically but enough into the mid-body horizontally that it might be a gut or liver hit. You watch the buck run off and disappears over the backside of a hill. You get down from your stand and find good-sized drops of bright red blood, but no arrow. You follow the trail a short ways, but the sign doesn’t get any better. The temperature is 60 degrees and is expected to drop only 10 degrees overnight. There are coyotes in the area, though not in great numbers.

Based on this information, how long would you wait?

How Long Should You Wait to Blood Trail a Bow Buck?

Total Votes: 1,084

A) Immediately. There’s only a little bit of light left, and he might be dead just over the hill.

14%

B) An hour. Then return with a friend and two strong lights to begin blood trailing.

53% (Even with coyotes present)

C) Six hours. Then same as above.

15%

D) Overnight. Wait until morning, when you can see better, and then take up the trail.

16%

Also, for Donner (who never never waits more than 15 minutes and asked where I get my information) see the table from this article....it is taken from Bowhunter Magazine and authored by James D. Moore, who cites the following experience.

"During my 25 years of hunting exclusively with a bow, I have shot about 250 deer. Notice, I said shot. In my early years of bowhunting, I failed to recover some animals because I began tracking too soon after the shot and had no blood-trailing knowledge. However, I did learn a lot about the recovery of animals during those first few years and have continued learning for a quarter century, and now I virtually never lose a deer."

25 yrs and 250 deer is a ton of experience.

Read more:
http://www.bowhunter.com/uncat...-deer/#ixzz3J07G1d00

Table...

http://www.bowhunter.com/files...oodtrack_071111B.jpg

Note that - unless you see the deer fall - even after a heart and/or lung shot the author (with abundant experience) advises a 1 hour waiting time before recovery.

Here is some discussion from Bowsite.com...

How long to wait before tracking?

By: Green Arrow
Posted: 20-Oct-09

This will be my first year hunting with a bow. I'm used to an instant kill with a rifle, so the idea of waiting for a deer to die is new to me. So if the deer does not die on the spot... how long should I wait before tracking?

By: BigTex
Posted: 20-Oct-09

Really depends on the shot.......at LEAST 30 minutes with a perfect shot is my rule.

By: Solocam1
Posted: 20-Oct-09

30 minutes on heart/lung. 4+ hours on a liver hit and at least 12 hours on a paunch hit. If you shoot one in the spine and can get a shot into the vitals, do so asap. Good luck!

By: Matt
Posted: 20-Oct-09

Wiht your handle 6 hours. ;-)

It really depends. If they drop within sight and are obviously dead, 5 minutes. If you hear them go down quickly but cannot tell whether they are dead, 30 minutes. If you are unsure of the shot and cannot locate your arrow to validate the hit, 6 hours.

By: Will
Posted: 20-Oct-09

I agree:

See em fall, 5-10'

Feel good about the shot, arrow looks good (bright bubbly blood all over it) but dont see the deer fall, and think you hear it fall: 20-60'

Feel ok about the shot, didnt hear or see it fall, arrow has darkish blood on it 4-6hrs.

Pretty sure it was shot in the paunch, arrow may have some blood, some greenish goo or "food chunks" on it... 12 hrs.

Spine hit and it drops - if you can put another in the vitals ASAP - then follow the see em fall guidelines.

Some times body language tells a lot as well. If the deer looks really stiff and hunched up, head kind of low as it walks/runs off, you likely gut shot it (12hr rule). If it mule kicks or just runs like a bat out of H that can be a good sign for 20' to 4hrs... but I find they are less predictable in body language after less than ideal shots then they are after bad shots.

The happiest body language at all, a deer that is walking and looks drunk OR who's tail is spastically moving. Both typically happen just before the deer expires.

Hopefully woody posts on here - he always posts good stuff on this subject!

By: Storm
Posted: 20-Oct-09

Unless you see him drop right in front of you I would give them at least 30-60 minutes. If they drop out of sight, and are not dead, you may jump him and then you are in trouble.

Get down and look for your arrow. Chech what you see on the arrow. Above comments on the arrow are good and will tell you a bunch about your shot placement.

Then look for blood around the area to see and confirm which way he took off.

Before you climb out of the stand, make sure you confirm the direction he took off. Connect the direction with some land amrks. Once on the ground things will look different.

Also, as it is you first time bow hunting, be safe. Give yourself some time to settle down before climbing down. The adrenaline rush is fantastic and you just want to be careful climbing down.

Good luck and have fun!

IMO, I'll let the readers decide who is correct. It was easy to find abundant documentation to support my position. AIU

AIU,

Second on the you're full of shit...

I've had the majority of my archery heart and lung shot critters drop within sight. I've had to blood trail some as well just EXACTLY like when using a rifle.

The bozos in the video were not using DG capable archery tackle. Using that fiasco as an example of why you shouldn't hunt with bow is like saying I shot a buff 10 times with .243 and it didn't go down. Therefore rifles are inadequate killers of game.

I have no idea what you are trying to prove with your quotes above. Other than it is prudent to wait a bit before following a blood trail. It is prudent whether that blood trail was caused by a bullet or an arrow.

The major difference being when you blood trail with a rifle if the critter pops up and starts hauling butt you can pop him. Not so much with a bow.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
The major difference being when you blood trail with a rifle if the critter pops up and starts hauling butt you can pop him. Not so much with a bow.

Valid and overlooked statement.

Very good point.

No dog in this fight, my problem with archers, is that the ones I have known/hunted with and talked too, allow themselves a 5% or more loss rate.

I have lost game that I shot with a rifle, but during my hunting career I can think of only 4 animals wounded and lost in almost 45 years of hunting.

I know archers that have lost that many animals or more in one or two seasons.

I also know archers that rarely if ever lose an animal.

But I also know of gun hunters that lose an animal or two every year.

My point is, unless hunters are willing to vote to outlaw one form of legal hunting because it does not meet with their criteria, then conversations like this need to be avoided or we will see hunting die.

As long as we, as a group refuse to police ourselves, we will only give those that want to take hunting away from us the ability to do so.

As a PH from Zimbabwe I find this kind of practice absolutely disgusting yet at the same time I'm not surprised at that it took place in South Africa!! Folks please don't get me wrong as I have very well respected PH and safari operator friends and colleagues from South Africa but because I associate my self with numerous South Africans you tend to hear of these type PISS POOR hunts happening rather often!!
I can say that I find it a real shame that hunts like these are accepted and 99% of the time the perpetrators get away with it and the client didn't know any better because he had the wool pulled over his eyes!!

In this respect I take my hat off to the Zimbabwe hunters association because if a hunt of this kind was conducted in Zimbabwe by a Zimbabwean PH (not that I'm saying it's never happened but rather unlikely) and our association got wind of it there would be heads rolling as well as PH Licences being pulled and that would probably only be the beginning of a huge pile of c*#+p to dig one self out of....

In my opinion, losing an animal is inexcusable regardless of weapon. It has happened to me. We followed for two days and then lost the track. It still hurts.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
In my opinion, losing an animal is inexcusable regardless of weapon. It has happened to me. We followed for two days and then lost the track. It still hurts.

If you hunt long enough, you will loose animals.

We never wait.

We run after the animals as it takes off running.

Most times we find them dead, or close to dying.

Other we follow and kill.

A few have gotten away, despite all our efforts.

Saeed,

Thanks. It makes me feel a bit better that I'm not totally alone.

If I remember correctly this PH came by our booth last year in Nashville at the NWTF National Convention. Not 100% but I know I have met him somewhere. If it is him and he is back in Nashville I will ask him about it and see what his reply is.

Trained to come after food truck and po'd when no hay dropped. Nothing aggressive when they drove up to him rubbing horns on trees. He, the hunter will go home and brag how he shot a buf with a bow la la la. But the real story will never come out.


Mike

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
In my opinion, losing an animal is inexcusable regardless of weapon. It has happened to me. We followed for two days and then lost the track. It still hurts.

I don't think there is a hunter alive who doesn't agree with that. That doesn't mean however that we don't lose a wounded animal from time to time. Whether using bow or rifle. I've lost several over the years with a rifle but can honestly say I've never lost an animal that I've hit with an arrow.

Well, this video certainty does suck !! It has given the anti hunting folks ammo, and has actually succeeded in making hunter argue with each other. Divide and conquer, a very good strategy. Does anyone else not see this as maybe a plant, or ploy by the anti's. We know they will stop at nothing to show hunters in a bad light, and to have the added bonus of having us fight amongst ourselves... Well.... I do have my suspicions.

"Divide and concur, ..". Now that's funny.

Ok, had a brain fart. It has now been corrected... Sorry..