Hmmmm!

Glenn

I'm sure what you say is very true. As you product bears testiment to.
However I am sure there are lessons to be learnt from the likes of the italians and spanish gunmaking companies in the use of modern cnc and other state of the art production methods. In the production of a cost effect falling block action.

quote:

When you have an 1874 Sharps in your gunsafe, every other rifle in there cries itself to sleep at night hoping it will be a Sharps when it wakes up.

I said that only partly in jest. The 1874 Sharps is a remarkable instrument, and I have frankly hunted everything with one for years. Don't sell one short.

I have to steal that quote from you. I have a friend withat least 2 Sharps Originals complete with letters of authenticity, at least one of them was sold at Ft. Griffin and used during the last days of the hunts on the southern plains.

There is a draw back to them however, especially for modern day hunters, they are too heavy. Figure out how to get it down into 7.5 to 8.5 pound gun with a 24 to 26 inch barrel or maybe out to 30 inches, 7/8ths. or maybe 1 inch across the flats octagon barrel, chambered for 30-30, 30-40 Krag, .348 Winchester, 9.3x74R, 38-55, .405 Win. maybe 45/70.

But it would be a niche market and I don't know that it could be done for under 2K as much as I would like to have one.

The Italian and Spanish makers use either forgings or castings generally in their lower cost production rifles. The minimum wage is low, manual labor is cheaper than machine time, short production runs for finishing work, when all is considered. Forgings are obviously a great way to go for strength and molecular structure of the steel, castings less so. All need finish machining. EDM accurate but very, very slow.
As I have found out, the USA is by far the largest market for single shot falling block rifles in the world. Certainly the English speaking world.

In direct contrast to low end production, there are Spanish and Italian makers that manufacture arms that cost as much as the best makers anywhere. There are so many variables in the gunmaking world. It is really important to decide exactly what one is trying to achieve before one spends the (tax paid) money and commits the time to any project before one starts. Is it about making money or fulfilling a dream.

What everyone who is following this thread needs to understand is the following-
All rifles, even relatively basic ones, require a significant amount of time and effort to turn blocks of steel and wood into something that will perform to an acceptable standard for the average consumer. And if one weighs up the time, effort, and resultant cost versus the potential market, which in turn relates to bottom line profit potential, one realises that working one's butt off to make a budget rifle for a $200 profit margin in todays world is just plain stupidity. Think about it, make 100 rifles for $200 margin is $20,000. $20,000 today is pocket change. And putting together 100 fully functioning rifles is a ton of work. Way more than 99% can intellectualise. And then make a small mistake and the chances are you will be lambasted or even crucified, on an internet forum because the $1200 rifle isn't perfect. Get real. Making a budget rifle or action today is only something that should be undertaken by those that have the labour resources and plant to do so, preferably in an emerging economy, supervised by those that know what they are doing. Ruger have been, and are doing a magnificent job for the average single shot lover for a long time. I dont think anyone is likely to push them aside for sometime yet.

Unfortuantely the reality and dreams are a long way apart. Before I started my project I spoke with Wal Winfer, who was a director of the Farquharson Rifle Co and Allan Hall regarding their single shot rifles and they both told me that the market was tiny and difficult, and that they was no money to be made from it, period. I didn't listen to them and pursued my dream anyway...

I thought long and hard before I started my project took the direction that you all know I decided to take.
The high end single shot market is a small niche but there are those that have the means to place orders for luxury items.

The bottom end has been taken care of by Ruger since the mid 60's. The middle, pricewise, by Dakota, Miller, Blaser, Bradshaw, Merkel etc.

There you go gents, from the horses mouth.

Thanks a ton Glenn!

I admire your work very much!

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:
The Italian and Spanish makers use either forgings or castings generally in their lower cost production rifles. The minimum wage is low, manual labor is cheaper than machine time, short production runs for finishing work, when all is considered. Forgings are obviously a great way to go for strength and molecular structure of the steel, castings less so. All need finish machining. EDM accurate but very, very slow.

Thanks Glenn for your thoughts.

I still feel that there are lessons to be learnt from both manfacturing bases.

quote:

In direct contrast to low end production, there are Spanish and Italian makers that manufacture arms that cost as much as the best makers anywhere. There are so many variables in the gunmaking world.

Hence my comments about lessons that might be learnt.

I'm sure if Beretta decided that there was sufficient profit to be made from the single shot/falling block rifle market they would attack it with a vengance. With some very innovative production methods. i'm also sure they would give Ruger a good run for their money.

Moa

No critism but...

I have never managed to work out quite what the appeal might be in the shooting of either a babbon, oystrich or zebra.

I sure as hell wouldn't eat the first, how much turkey can one eat for the second, and the third woulkd be like shooting a donkey IMO.

I can't make out what it is that you shot in the picture with the black and white dog in.

quote:

Originally posted by Jools:
I have never managed to work out quite what the appeal might be in the shooting of either a babbon, oystrich or zebra. .

I have never managed to work out quite what the appeal might be in the showing of pictures of a lotta dead non-dangerous animals! Absolutely SCREAMS 'insecurity' to me....
Regards, Joe

quote:

I have never managed to work out quite what the appeal might be in the showing of pictures of a lotta dead non-dangerous animals! Absolutely SCREAMS 'insecurity' to me....
Regards, Joe

Maybe because they want to! I thought the discussion was about Single Shot rifle actions, not attacks on what someone else chooses to hunt or what they should or should not be proud of.

When did the discussion change?

quote:

I have never managed to work out quite what the appeal might be in the showing of pictures of a lotta dead non-dangerous animals! Absolutely SCREAMS 'insecurity' to me....
Regards, Joe

Is there an inference that if MOA was sitting on top of a dozen or so tigers that he would be less "insecure"?

Many of us that hunt have no desire to shoot "DG" but rather herbivorous animals, for their meat, horn and skin. There is much skill required in hunting a bushbuck in the jesse, and the the trophy fee is usually less than 20K. Or a walk up Kudu hunt in the mountains of the Eastern Cape can be a challenge. For some it is not just about hunting something that may occasionally bite back, but about the adventure of a different land, different smells, sunsets and sunrises to die for, a decent drink around the campfire at the end of a good day's walking and hunting. Give the guy a break. The photos he posted took me back to some fine places in Africa. And be certain that all the meat was sold and later eaten by the locals. All is OK.

I can see that the shit slinging on AR hasn't slowed down any in the last while.

BTW rogue male babboons have a nasty reputation of killing goats only for their milk, the eyes of an eagle and a primates capacity to process information. Not an easy animal to bag and often requested by farmers to be shot as a pest. The one I was asked to shoot only presented the top half of its head on top of a vertical bluff 400 yards, in the last 5 minutes of light. My PH said that it was a real shame that I wouldn't be able to shoot it, given the impossibility of the shot. My 7mm mag shot 3" groups at 400, so I wasnt so certain about the "impossibility factor". The local farmer was delighted to see it leap up and fall down the cliff face after the shot. The reign of terror extinguished by one well placed shot to the centre of the nut. There is often a history that foreigners are unaware of. The lack of a trophy fee and celebration confirming the "story".

Africa is a different land to that of the "West". Thats for sure...

My point was that there is little glory or braggin' rights associated with showing multiple (MULTIPLE) pics of yourself with dead non-dangerous game. Anyone with enough disposable income and free time can kill lots of that sort of animal, but why OH WHY do they think that it's worth BRAGGING about? The only thing those pics prove is that he had the time and money to hunt non-dangerous game, and that he felt insecure enough to use the pics to try to augment his internet persona.

Yes, if he was sitting on a pile of tigers (or even ONE) then I'd say he had a RIGHT to brag! As Johnny Carson used to say, "You bet your sweet bippy!"

But it's different strokes for different folks. I personally have killed around 50 NA big-game animals of several sorts, some were trophy size, but have never taken a single photo of any of them, much less a photo of myself with them. Have never had a trophy mounted but have paid for several friends' sons to have theirs (smaller than mine) mounted.

Does that make my attitude OK for everyone? Of course not. As I said above, it's different strokes for different folks.

If this was a Hunting or Africa forum then the pics would be fine. This is a single-shot rifle forum and the pics are an unnecessary distraction.

However Glenn's description of his African experiences was very enjoyable to read (no photos required).
Regards, Joe

[QUOTE]Originally posted:


It is really important to decide exactly what one is trying to achieve before one spends the (tax paid) money and commits the time to any project before one starts. Is it about making money or fulfilling a dream.

QUOTE]



Agreed. If the effort is to make a sizeable heap of money, then single shot rifles in general is probably not the niche to look at.

One catchy diet/cook book can make MORE MONEY in both the short and long runs, with far, far less time-consumption or work and not a great deal more hype.

But, IF one does not need to make a living solely from his products, he can make an honoured place for himself in the history of shooting by turning out a sound, popular, low priced rifle for the average man who loves the hunting field but is not wealthy.

No one said it wouldn't be a lot of work and take real devotion to the craft more than to the dollar. That may be the difference between gun "artists" of today and some of the old-time gun people such as Niedner, Pope, Shelhamer (SP?), and others.

If one already has a full pension, then an added $20,000 or $30,000 a year is useful money, especially when it is also earning a respect and eventually an epitaph which the money-chasers will most likely never know.

To me, the main object of any worthy endeavor is not to make money. It is to satisfy the inner man and to maintain a life worth having lived, in one's own eyes.

For those who want or need to make more money (no matter why), then top class stuff may work over the long haul...and it may not. For their sakes, I hope it does.

There are more and more folk appealing to that ultra-moneyed set for their sales. A relative few are successful at it for ten or so years. Others may manage to milk a living from it for 20 years or so, if one includes all their different companies and bankruptcies. A very few few become icons and do very well indeed.

But, it IS a fickle market. Like buffalo robes and flamingo feathers, styles come and go, and the more expensive they are, the more subject they are to what is an "in" fad (or name) and what (or who) is " de classe".

So one has to really examine his priorities and make choices he is willing to ride to the end of the rope before he jumps into the rodeo and puts his abilities and assets to the real test. It may be akin to swinging a leopard 'round and 'round by the tail. Hard to get into that position in the first place, but when one wants to let go is when it really gets tough!

---------------------------------

Agree with everything you say, in theory. If one is on the pension and looking for another 20 or 30 k to put into the pot every year, then one just better hope that everything required to be in production is there waiting, before retiring because it costs a chunk of change, or time and equipment to get production up and running.

The ideal of making a good quality SSFB rifle available to the masses is being done. A good friend of mine who is a single shot / Ruger #1 nut met Bill R at function a few years before he passed away and Bill today told him that he made the number 1 out of love for falling blocks and not make money. I think he said they barely covered costs, and were virtually a loss leader of sorts.

Anyone who makes a falling block single shot does it for the satisfaction, not for the money. I would have loved someone to re-start making Farkies of some rendition before I did mine. I waited 15 years and none took up the challenge inspite of many rumours. Ballard have had a rumour on their website for 5 years or so, with a "comming soon" banner. Well so is the end of the world.

I would gladly welcome someone to start making Farkies again for half or less than what I sell mine for. But I am not sure there is anyone out there that is smart enough to get the manufacturing together and at the same time stupid enough to sell them for say 8K. That would be an oxymoron of sorts.

I know what someone could do as selfless Mother Teresa act for the Farkie lovers of the world and that is re-design and manufacture a aftermarket high quality underlever and triggerguard styled more in keeping with the orginal Gibbs, H&H Farkies for Ruger #1's. Then the avergae man could have a rifle that has the aesthetic of the original and the reliability and very low price of a Ruger #1. That underlever and triggerguard really are an eyesorewhen examined closely.

Who is going to take up this rather simple little task?? Way, way easier than designing a whole rifle from scratch and tooling up for it, just an underlever, a triggerguard and a lever latch.

Joe, you would have the means and skill set to make up a sample for the AR SS lovers. How about you?

Low cost Farkie anyone? Thats they way I suspect it should be done.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by Jools:
I have never managed to work out quite what the appeal might be in the shooting of either a babbon, oystrich or zebra. .

I have never managed to work out quite what the appeal might be in the showing of pictures of a lotta dead non-dangerous animals! Absolutely SCREAMS 'insecurity' to me....
Regards, Joe

Dangerous game? Haven't hunted those successfully, been too busy hunting men in Afghanistan. I don't have any trophy photos, because it is probably against some military law or the public would deam it so.

I wish I was alive to hunt tigers. My uncle and grandfather did in the 1950s in India and Bangladesh (East Pakistan at the time).my Grandfather built dams on some big rivers over there back then as a batch plant contractor.

As for having money, well I got to go to Africa because I used an enlistment bonus I got in 2005. For the most part I scrape by on an enlisted mans salary. I have been stationed overseas for most of my career.

Having been stationed overseas for most of my career and in the warzone for a good portion of that, those 16 animals represent 95% of the hunting that I have got to do in 19 years in the military. And all the Africa stuff happened in 10 glorious days in 2005.

Glad you are good enough to pass judgement.

As for the photos being an eyesore, I agree. I am still trying to figure out the signature line. I just started this sig photo line yesterday with the help of another on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:
Agree with everything you say, in theory. If one is on the pension and looking for another 20 or 30 k to put into the pot every year, then one just better hope that everything required to be in production is there waiting, before retiring because it costs a chunk of change, or time and equipment to get production up and running.

The ideal of making a good quality SSFB rifle available to the masses is being done. A good friend of mine who is a single shot / Ruger #1 nut met Bill R at function a few years before he passed away and Bill today told him that he made the number 1 out of love for falling blocks and not make money. I think he said they barely covered costs, and were virtually a loss leader of sorts.

Anyone who makes a falling block single shot does it for the satisfaction, not for the money. I would have loved someone to re-start making Farkies of some rendition before I did mine. I waited 15 years and none took up the challenge inspite of many rumours. Ballard have had a rumour on their website for 5 years or so, with a "comming soon" banner. Well so is the end of the world.

I would gladly welcome someone to start making Farkies again for half or less than what I sell mine for. But I am not sure there is anyone out there that is smart enough to get the manufacturing together and at the same time stupid enough to sell them for say 8K. That would be an oxymoron of sorts.

I know what someone could do as selfless Mother Teresa act for the Farkie lovers of the world and that is re-design and manufacture a aftermarket high quality underlever and triggerguard styled more in keeping with the orginal Gibbs, H&H Farkies for Ruger #1's. Then the avergae man could have a rifle that has the aesthetic of the original and the reliability and very low price of a Ruger #1. That underlever and triggerguard really are an eyesorewhen examined closely.

Who is going to take up this rather simple little task?? Way, way easier than designing a whole rifle from scratch and tooling up for it, just an underlever, a triggerguard and a lever latch.

Joe, you would have the means and skill set to make up a sample for the AR SS lovers. How about you?

Low cost Farkie anyone? Thats they way I suspect it should be done.

All,


Good information to think about.

As of today, I don't really want to build whole rifles. I have to do a lot more research on the entire business, and I'll probably come visit you in Kiwi-land before we move back to America next year, we are coming over for a vacation next winter anway.

Glenn I don't know how many rifles you turn out a year, hopefully it's well beyond enough to make a living.

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:



I know what someone could do as selfless Mother Teresa act for the Farkie lovers of the world and that is re-design and manufacture a aftermarket high quality underlever and triggerguard styled more in keeping with the orginal Gibbs, H&H Farkies for Ruger #1's.

I think that is a brilliant idea, and a good niche for someone who wants to build a successful part-time small business. Just be sure to design/make it so it can be used to upgrade Ruger No.3s as well. They really need it and would make the potential market a little bit larger.

BTW Glenn, I believe Bill Ruger told John Amber the same thing he told your frend, and it is one of the many reasons Amber admired Bill so much.

-----------------------------------

Glenn,

I like your stock work better than Martin Hagn or Ralph Martini, they put too much drop in a single shot for me.

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
Glenn,

I like your stock work better than Martin Hagn or Ralph Martini, they put too much drop in a single shot for me.

Aint that the truth.I spent a few weeks up in Cranbrook a year and a half ago working with Martin in his workshop and during that time we compared many things of single shot design, his stock shape being one of them. He was at the time having his CNC model re-done and I told him that there was way too much drop in his stock. The root of the problem is the angle and position of the tangs. The other issue that this low tang creates is the high "squared backed anglular" look at the rear of the action, which is another issue that many of Martin's potential customers have complained about. These dislikes have been expressed by many potential customers but he refuses to change them. The one advantage of having the tangs drop away is that it does give one a little more room in the loading area for sliding a new shell in. A little. This refusal to alter the tangs is really quite strange when you have a look at many Hagn shaped bolt action stocks as they are really quite flat. Anyway I expressed my honest opinion, inspite of the fact that that if he made another version with higher tangs to enable the stock to be where it should be for a scoped rifle, it would probably cost me some sales, but no dice. Additionally,the low comb increases felt recoil to the shooter. When I asked Ralf Martini how comfortable his own personal rifle he said "Ja, it is a 300 Weatherby but the recoil is very very strong". Hmm I wonder why? Many years ago I had an Old BSA Royal in 30-06 that had a similar shaped stock, also set up for iron sights and I could not believe how much that rifle recoiled. Way more vicious that a friends 300 win. It taught me a valuable lesson. One other thing is the neccesity to have a head shaped like Herman Munster to be able to shoot a scoped Hagn comfortably. There is so much drop that it is not poissible to get a decent cheek plant because the comb is so low. One thing I have learnt about German gunmakers is that they have extreme deference for the Master who taught them how to make a rifle, and they will not change this "pattern" for anyone. Kind of a bit like the way they design cars. Todate there has not been a high end German car that I am aware of that has the steering feel and suspension feed back that the Italians can create in a budget car. A top end BMW needs to be driven from the brain whereas a Alfa is driven from the heart and the ass. But zey vill not change dis for anyvun!

MOA, you will be better off visiting the workshop just over the Wyoming border in South Dakota rather than in New Zealand. There is a distinct lack of engravers, colour casers in NZ so relocation was necessary. Additionally wood picked up too much moisture. Pm me if you want re this.

Cheers

Glenn

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by Jools:
I have never managed to work out quite what the appeal might be in the shooting of either a babbon, oystrich or zebra. .

I have never managed to work out quite what the appeal might be in the showing of pictures of a lotta dead non-dangerous animals! Absolutely SCREAMS 'insecurity' to me....
Regards, Joe

Joe

Perhaps they just feel the need to share?

Hagns are wonderful pieces of equipment, but to me the stock design is horrible.

The Dakota M10 is junk internally, but no other rifle to my eyes is as beautiful.

There has to be some kind of comprimise.

quote:

The Dakota M10 is junk internally, but no other rifle to my eyes is as beautiful.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder......

This is about as close to perfection as one could hope for


I can't agree with you on the M10

For some great ideas on how to improve the looks of both the Hagn and the Dakota 10, you can't do much better than to consult Steve Hughes' book Custom Rifles in Black and White. Ed Webber has restyled the Hagn's ring and, more importantly, its grip angle and profile. Steve's Dakota 10, although IMO needing further minor changes, sports a new lever with GREATLY improved looks.
Regards, Joe

Joe

Do you know of any photos of the Ed Webber reworked Hagn. I am slowly working myself around toputting the funds together for a falling block and what you have described and what Glenn and others have posted is sure making the decisions much more interesting.

Joe

I think I may have found what I've been looking for

Steve, many thanks for posting those photos!

I wuz trying to drum up a little more interest in your book, hoping that if the price rose high enough, maybe you could get it reprinted.

Or, as long as I'm wishing, let's hope for the printing of your NEXT custom rifle book!
Best, Joe

My eyes hurt, I am not a fan of Talley mounts. Cabelas in Maine had a Roberts/Rigby that was a beautiful rifle, exepting the abortion Talleys put on it after the fact. Total detraction from the gunmakers work.

At least you guys are incorporating them into the intial design.

I have always enjoyed SDH's stockwork. Thank you for posting.

The mountain lion Hagn is wonderful. I can't remember who stocked that rifle, is it a Hagn all the way through?

SDH,
Firstly is it too much to ask for you to know the meaning of a word before you try and insult someone with it. There is absolutely no hypocracy in my post. Amongst other things you however are a hyocrite. You call yourself a gunmaker but are nothing of the sort. You simply re-stock other people's metal work and venture into the risque territory of triggerguard redesign or underlever reshaping. Big deal. You have not met me, you have no first hand knowledge of my skill set, so for you to throw first a punch in a public areana such as this, is a very ignorant choice.

Unlike you, I have designed, a falling block action from scratch that functions as well as it looks. The only item I copied is the original Farkie extractor / ejector because it is a work of art (and something that Hagn should have used in his design because of the flexibility of being able to extract or eject depending on situation and force applied) The rest of the design is mine.

There are some gun designers in the industry, like Cyle Miller that have looked at my action in detail and have given it the full thumbs up. Martin H, also has been over it from front to back and likes most aspects of it, he prefers his action overall but accepts that the inline striker of my design is superior for accuracy and lock time. As mentioned previously, he walked around his workshop holding one of my actions muttering many times every day " who would believe zee best machinists in zee the world are from New Zeeland?" Quality of machining is one aspect of a rifles ultimate build quality. Germans like quality machining.
He also told me that he has had many requests over the years for the changes we discussed re tangs and stock shape.(He dealt with the discussion far better than you, incidentally.)

The fact I don't like that his action uses an extractor, or that I don't like the fact it cocks on closing (partially), or I don't like the tang position or angle, or don't like the fact it doesn't have a separate trigger guard is my perogative. I do however love the trigger design and I love the firing pin retraction mechanism and hammer pivot location, also my choice. I like my design, he likes his. Inspite of what some may think total perfection is a dream. To each his own. Some share my opinion, some his. I guess the orders I have received are testament to the fact some people like what I make.
You live in Montana, a state I have spent a lot of time in. A State that honours freedom of expression, freedom of opinion. You seem to be an exception to the Montana mindset. All of the things I have discussed in this thread, I have discussed openly and directly to Martin's face. If he reads this post there will be no surprises. Do you know how many people there are living today that can say they have designed a falling block single shot action from scratch and taken it through to completion? I'll give you the list I know of Martin Hagn, Cyle Miller, Allan Hall, amd me.

When I first started my project 5 years or so ago I rang you at your home, to discuss my dream. You were extremely rude, dismissive and arrogant. When I told you that I was going to remake a version of the Gibbs you scoffed "Yes I have I have heard all this before from many others in the past and no one gets it done. Ring me when you have finished and I will let you know what I think." Well as you well know I didn't bother. What a great mentor you are to those that have the cherries to do what you cannot.

SDH, when you have designed and manufactured from start to finish, a unique falling block single shot action of your own, then perhaps you can think about having a go at me for what I am doing.

Until then, perhaps it is appropriate that you stay off the public "finger pointing" podium you rude, arrogant and deluded poseur.

Ciao

Glenn

I do like the lever for the Hagn better than the M10.

I never realized how similar they are in the receiver. With the Hagn having higher "walls" and a different shaped tang.

I used to have a Ruger #3 that someone had done some cutting and welding on the lever and given it a Hagn look. It had a monte carlo pistol grip stock and a mannlicher forend. Nice rifle, but it was super short butted and I should have kept it. Heck if only for the action alone as #3 actions are expensive these days.

Glenn I really appreciate the help, it is hard to know what questions to ask when you are interested in starting out building guns.

I have had several run-ins with "name" gunsmiths who aren't interested in giving any direction at all to amatuers.

Harry Lawson Junior, Dale Storey, Dorleac and Hagn have given good direction, as well as Duane Wiebe.

Thanks again

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:

Boy you sure do have a lot of time on your hands.... for the master you claim to be. I've heard lots of stories, that's enough for me. Best of luck.
I forgot to ask, which part did you make?

Stories? They are for old women and children. Men require firsthand experience.
No luck needed.

I am done with your drivel.

Ciao

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
Jools, I respectfully request that you do not pirate my copyrighted photos from my web site, Thanks. (BTW: in a conversation with Ed Webber recently, he said cutting the lever of that Hagn that short was a mistake, it being difficult to operate.)

Steve
My apologise. I should have posted a link along with the photo. However I also failed see to any copyright statement on you web site and therefore accpted that the images were in the public domain.

Thanks for the heads up re Ed's views on the cutting the lever.

Just for the record I won't be using either you or Ed to build the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
Glenn I really appreciate the help, it is hard to know what questions to ask when you are interested in starting out building guns.

I have had several run-ins with "name" gunsmiths who aren't interested in giving any direction at all to amatuers.

Harry Lawson Junior, Dale Storey, Dorleac and Hagn have given good direction, as well as Duane Wiebe.

Thanks again

You are welcome.
Those that have walked the path to the end will no doubt give you a helping hand, within reason.
Another that might give you some insight into the realm is Bailey Bradshaw in Tx. He also has built single shot actions from billets of steel.

Cheers for now

Glenn

Glenn, I notice that you cite Cyle(sp?) Miller as somewhat of a guru in the single-shot world.

As I understand it, the 'Miller' action was actually originally the de Haas action, then it was modified into the de Haas/Miller action, then the Miller/de Haas action, and now the Miller action or maybe (by now) the Miller/Dakota action. NOT a Cyle Miller design, but rather a design of Frank de Haas' that was modified by Cyle's dad.

Furthermore, the single example of rifle-building that I've seen used (my friend Richard K's) that came out of Cyle Miller's shop was a sad thing indeed. Absolutely NO concept of how to design and adjust a single-shot rifle to shoot accurately. GREAT job of polishing a turd, but when new it would string shots vertically for 6" @ 100 yds!

After 2 hours' forearm work by a COMPETENT smith, the rifle now shoots into less than 1 MOA for 3 shots.

Miller is probably not(!) the best 'maker' for you to use as an example (sorrowful but sympathetic grin).
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
The mountain lion Hagn is wonderful. I can't remember who stocked that rifle, is it a Hagn all the way through?

It was built by Hartmann & Weiss and uses their takedown system.It has a Hagn single-set trigger mechanism with a sculptured trigger made by Don Klein, and the whole thing was engraved by Hans Eisbacher.

And this, folks, is why I buy classic rifles!

Every thread on this subject devolves as this one has.
Every post here IMO, looks to have some validity.
Glenn is spot on in the thought that a good first foray into the FB market would be to offer improved parts for the Rugers.
We already have new safeties and the lever could be beautified. Even a sidelever conversion can be done if wanted. This has been done before and is a very nice mod.
I could see a market for Ruger upgrades considering the $$$$ folks shell out on tarting up their ARs and such.

quote:

I could see a market for Ruger upgrades considering the $$$$ folks shell out on tarting up their ARs and such.

So could I and many others. It sure works for their other big seller the 10/22. As we all know, you can upgrade everything on one of thoses apart from the bang!

Nice rifle. I wished the people making it would have gone the extra step to index the screws correctly on the Talley rings; or better yet fabricate rings a little more refined to match the rest of the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
Nice rifle. I wished the people making it would have gone the extra step to index the rings screws correctly; or better yet fabricate something a little more refined to match the rest of the rifle.

I always time all visible screw slots, for several reasons.

Looks better.
Indication of maker expertise and attention to detail.
Looks better.
Easy to check for loosening screws.
And did I mention that it looks better?(grin)
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
Nice rifle. I wished the people making it would have gone the extra step to index the screws correctly on the Talley rings; or better yet fabricate rings a little more refined to match the rest of the rifle.

Hmm good point' I also don't like the way the quick release thumb levers are on the opposite side of the rifle to the side lever. I much prefer all the possible snag points to be on the R/H side or L/H side depending on where the bolt handle or side lever is located. Esthetically and practically it's just better IMO.