ireload2 wrote:

quote:

Like I said before I make a living in manufacturing working with machined parts. I know what it costs to make them.
That includes raw materials, machine time, setup time, outside or special processes.

With that being the case, you have overlooked the obvious. If you could actually see things from an administratitive viewpoint, you would also consider that far more goes into an item than what you referenced. Did you stop to calculate advertising, liability issues, research & development, delivery of the raw materials and the delivery of the final product (not to mention calculating a profit margin)?

Just because you know that the sum of an item's primary parts is x dollars doesn't meant that you can buy it for that amount.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

And you remind me of someone that comes from an area of the country where the vocabulary is made up of about 3 words - retirement, pension, social security ....nice job to not reproduce yourself though.
.

I usually avoid insults religiously. They never add to a discussion. They are the last refuge of a clueless party in that discussion. But you seem to thrive on them. So, The statement that comes to mind in your case is the one the Army General used in New Orleans after Katrina. What was it?? Oh yeah,
"Stuck on Stupid"

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
ireload2 wrote:

quote:

Like I said before I make a living in manufacturing working with machined parts. I know what it costs to make them.
That includes raw materials, machine time, setup time, outside or special processes.

With that being the case, you have overlooked the obvious. If you could actually see things from an administratitive viewpoint, you would also consider that far more goes into an item than what you referenced. Did you stop to calculate advertising, liability issues, research & development, delivery of the raw materials and the delivery of the final product (not to mention calculating a profit margin)?

Just because you know that the sum of an item's primary parts is x dollars doesn't meant that you can buy it for that amount.

You could also add value added costs. Product support in the form of a lifetime warranty & technical support. You mentioned "liability issues". Product liability insurance is a huge cost factor in gun mfg.

Bobby, this guy is a card puncher in a shop who has apparently elevated himself, in his own mind, to an industrial manufacturing tycoon. He has no idea what he's talking about in this discussion. He probably couldn't get a janitorial position with The people & companies he's badmouthing . We shouldn't encourage him. It's just attention he wants anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by brayhaven:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
ireload2 wrote:

quote:

Like I said before I make a living in manufacturing working with machined parts. I know what it costs to make them.
That includes raw materials, machine time, setup time, outside or special processes.

With that being the case, you have overlooked the obvious. If you could actually see things from an administratitive viewpoint, you would also consider that far more goes into an item than what you referenced. Did you stop to calculate advertising, liability issues, research & development, delivery of the raw materials and the delivery of the final product (not to mention calculating a profit margin)?

Just because you know that the sum of an item's primary parts is x dollars doesn't meant that you can buy it for that amount.

You could also add value added costs. Product support in the form of a lifetime warranty & technical support. You mentioned "liability issues". Product liability insurance is a huge cost factor in gun mfg.

Bobby, this guy is a card puncher in a shop who has apparently elevated himself, in his own mind, to an industrial manufacturing tycoon. He has no idea what he's talking about in this discussion. He probably couldn't get a janitorial position with The people & companies he's badmouthing . We shouldn't encourage him. It's just attention he wants anyway.

Sorry you are so wrong Greg and Bobby. The company I work for could lose TC off in a corner. The work I do is used to negotiate prices with suppliers and yes they include material handling overhead, G&A (that is general and administrative), profit, freight and non-recurring costs such as tooling programming and engineering.
Got any more lame guesses bray? Yes I know how run an engine lathe much better than you mr "gunsmith". I have about 10,000 hrs running mills and lathes. But after I completed a degree in engineering technology I have not punched a time clock in 31 years.
The joke is on you bray....but you keep saying end of discussion even though you can't support your side of the argument??

quote:

I usually avoid insults religiously.

I was just pointing out that your boast of early retirement was not very persuasive since you have not raised a family. Anyone can retire early if they don't have children.
But I guess that is hard for you to comprehend like an only child comprehending having brothers and sisters. How did Father's Day go?

Let me preface my response by saying that I like both the TCs and NEF.

I currently own NEFs with SSI (rimfire), SB1, and SB2 frames.

I also own the older style Contender and the newer G2 (in both pistol and carbine/rifle. configurations).

I do not own an Encore, so I will make no comments about them except they appear to be of the same high quality workmanship as other TCs.

Many of the pros and cons have already been discussed, so I'll try to stick to things that haven't been mentioned before..... or points (mentioned above) which I disagree with.

Nobody has mentioned the advantage of the Contender and Encore to go from center fire to rim fire with a flick of the switch. The NEF can't do that.

Only the TCs (Encore & Contender) offer the ability/flexibility to go from pistol to rifle (rimfire & centerfire) to muzzleloader to shotgun (albeit the Contender is limited to .410 or 28 ga).

The fitting of extra barrels on the NEF is NO BIG DEAL. It's quick, inexpensive, and simple. My advise is go with the SB-2 frame and SSI (if you also want rimfire).

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
[But I guess that is hard for you to comprehend like an only child comprehending having brothers and sisters. How did Father's Day go?

It went great. I spent it remembering my father, and teaching a group of fatherless 4H kids how to trim the hooves on their horses to save their single mothers money. Much of my (retirement)time is spent volunteering with kids, boy scouts & 4H.

Reading this forum makes me wonder what a new member must think the first time they venture into a conversation that goes like this one.

The question was "which one would you choose and why". The answer went to left field and has yet to return.

TC because I like the versality, workmanship and higher quality.

skb! You got it!

Children,.... Brayhaven/ireaload,..... weren't we talking about the merits of the TC vs. NEF?!!

quote:

That rifle would not even make my top 10. Big Grin

That's ok with me. But like you said
You would not make comments about items you are not thoroughly familiar with.

quote:

Originally posted by brayhaven:

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
[But I guess that is hard for you to comprehend like an only child comprehending having brothers and sisters. How did Father's Day go?

It went great. I spent it remembering my father, and teaching a group of fatherless 4H kids how to trim the hooves on their horses to save their single mothers money. Much of my (retirement)time is spent volunteering with kids, boy scouts & 4H.

Geee that is so sad
Just like all the other Father's days huh?

quote:

Only the TCs (Encore & Contender) offer the ability/flexibility to go from pistol to rifle (rimfire & centerfire)

Rimfire to center fire means little to me. The price of a Contender new .22 rimfire barrel is the same price as an ordinary .22 and about half the cost of a pretty good .22. The Contender is a bit too light for much of a rifle. The Contender makes a decent single shot pistol if you like that.
The Encore makes a better rifle but the TC calibers it is offered in are of little interest to me. If you go the custom barrel route you can get some interesting barrels for the Encore but you are well on your way toward paying for another rifle and I would rather have another rifle.

The Handi that I have is a 38-55 and was a bargain for what I paid. Half the cost of an Encore.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
Geee that is so sad
Just like all the other Father's days huh?

Not sad at all. & of course you are prima facia evidence that you don't need intelligence or ability to father children. Any dickhead can do it.

If you are representative of the manufacturing mentality in America, it's no wonder the trade deficit is in the trillions. We/you deserve it.
Greg
"It ain't ignorance so much as some knowing a lot that just ain't so" Josh Billings

ireload2 wrote:

quote:

But like you said
You would not make comments about items you are not thoroughly familiar with.

Why would you ASSUME I am not familiar with it???

I am very familiar with the rifle. And I still don't consider it anything near "perfect."

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
skb! You got it!

Children,.... Brayhaven/ireaload,..... weren't we talking about the merits of the TC vs. NEF?!!

WE were indeed, "daman". you just walked in on the tail end of it. It wandered off track, as most of the threads do on this forum. Usually happens when one or more of the posters runs out of pertinent things to say on topic, or realizes he has totally lost the debate. Then he hurls insults at the other party(s) as "ire" has descended to.
I've only had to do it when it was absolutely necessary. I see you also like that sort of thing over in the politics dept. .

The dialog of this thread is really pitiful.
It’s a shame you grown up men have to resort to slander, or are you grown up?

I do have 2 Handi's and they are pretty good, they are custom 257Roberts and 6x47.



I don't have any TC's they are hard to find around here. Though I don't like the looks of them. My favorite SS rifles are Ruger #1 and #3 and of course the 1885's and Handi's.

If you know what to do with a Handi they can be a fine rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by ZERMEL:

If you know what to do with a Handi they can be a fine rifle.

You have your nerve, posting something about handi rifles on this thread

I had a good friend who was working as a petroleum engineer in venezuela (pre-chavez). He had the predecessor (H&R topper) that he used to hunt jaguar with in 410. He would take the shot out and stack @ 5 00 buckshot in it. Said it worked fine @ 10-15 yards. They wouldn't let him have a rifle due to paranoia about revolutions. On a later trip, he smuggled a 30-30 barrel in a rod case and felt much safer shooting the jags. I've worked on quite a few of them. Mostly lightening the horrendous triggers & a couple broken hammer springs. They were obviously designed by lawyers or engineers, not shooters. One had 9lb of pull. I had to use a fish scale to measure it ).
Probably a good rifle for a kid's first gun.

Brayhaven
I thought this thread was TC VS Handi.
I guess you did not know. Besides your big noice making does not cut any ice.

The stock triggers on the Handi are not that bad. I think you'll find that the average Handi has about a 5 lb. trigger pull from the factory. And they can easily be improved.

Here's an easy trick to smooth up the trigger from M.L. McPherson's 'Accurizing the Factory Rifle'...

"Marrying the Trigger Sear to the Hammer Sear Notch. THIS DOES NOT REQUIRE PULLING THE TRIGGER/HAMMER MECHANISMS FROM THE RIFLE
..... ALSO NO TOOLS REQUIRED!

Remove the barrel. Cock the hammer and push forward on the hammer with the thumb while slowly pulling the trigger. Don't use too much thumb pressure (about 20 lbs.). If your thumb hurts, your using too much pressure!

Press hammer and slowly pull trigger about 10 times. This should burnish the rough edges from the sear and sear latches. This will result in wear to the contact surfaces similar to that provided by longtime use.

If you care to take the trigger and hammer mechanisms out and do a truly professional trigger job, follow these instructions...

H&R/NEF Handi-Rifle Trigger Work Pt. 1

H&R/NEF Handi-Rifle Trigger Work Pt.2

DaMan
You are right Handi triggers are easy to to hone if you follow the directions of Perklo on the Handi Forum.

Both my triggers are 28oz on the two rifles above, to get a really nice funtioning trigger you should also reduce the trigger return sping to about
6 oz. I used new lighter and softer spring.

quote:

Originally posted by ZERMEL:
Brayhaven
I thought this thread was TC VS Handi.
I guess you did not know. Besides your big noice making does not cut any ice.

Duh, did you see that little smiley "Zerm"??? what's a big noice??? We don't have ice in FL.. I thought you cannucks had a sense of humor...

quote:

Originally posted by ZERMEL:
DaMan
You are right Handi triggers are easy to to hone if you follow the directions of Perklo on the Handi Forum.

Both my triggers are 28oz on the two rifles above, to get a really nice funtioning trigger you should also reduce the trigger return sping to about
6 oz. I used new lighter and softer spring.

I've never seen a decent trigger job done without removing the trigger hammer etc.
You also need to set them up and surface grind the hammer notch down to reduce creep. An
overtravel set screw is a big help too. I wouldn't recommend those mods to be done by an owner.
The contenders come with great triggers that are actually a set trigger. The newer "G" frames don't have triggers as good, but they can be cocked & recocked without pulling the break lever (like the Encore). I still like the old design better.

One customer I have loves his NEF & brags about it costing so little. But he put a plastic stock on it, had some trigger work done &
now has about as much as a contender in it .

quote:

You also need to set them up and surface grind the hammer notch down to reduce creep. An
overtravel set screw is a big help too. I wouldn't recommend those mods to be done by an owner.

These statements of yours tell me that you are full of Floridas hot air.
You don't have a clue about the Handi action.

quote:

Originally posted by ZERMEL:

These statements of yours tell me that you are full of Floridas hot air.
You don't have a clue about the Handi action.

I'm sure you're right zermy. I've only worked on a half dozen or so this year: (H&R's & handis) about the avg per yr. You have 2 of them and are the world expert, like so many of your countrymen.

My gun dealer brings all the gun mags to work for us to read. The only comparo I've seen had the Handi-Rifle as a hands down winner. It cost less, and shot better. I bought 2 for relatives as presents, a 243 and a 270. Both are well received. I have no personal experience with the TC.

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
Hi
which one would you choose or why?
regards
yes

I own both, thirty-two H&R rifles and three H&R shotguns, an Encore with a 375H&H Prohunter and 7mm-08 barrels. As you can see, my preference is for the H&Rs, I have several custom chamberings, 338-06 A-Square, 405 Winchester, 35 Remington, 45-120-3¼" Sharps Straight and 280 Improved, they're all capable shooting 1" 100yd groups consistently.

The Encore shoots good, but not without some work, it had excess headspace, a heavy 7½lb trigger, and with the hammer extension, misfires until I installed a heavy hammer spring. It has problems not unlike some of the H&Rs, but most of the H&Rs shot good out of the box, those that haven't didn't take much to get them to shoot well, a little forend tinkering, not unlike the Encore, that needed the forend floated.

I've done close to 20 trigger jobs, older H&Rs had heavy triggers, 5-8lbs, current production are closer to 4lbs, have a couple that are 20-30oz, crisp and break cleanly that I honed myself. If doing your own trigger job isn't your thing, H&R will do one free when you send it in for accessory barrels or just send it in, cost will be just shipping, I've had them do two of em for me, both right at 3½lbs, they do good work.

H&R's Customer Service is second to none, their products may not be perfect, but they will make it right if there's a problem. They chipped the stock of my Buffalo Classic when I sent it in for another 45-70 barrel, I sent them an email pic of the damage, they sent me a new butt stock with an apology, it don't get no better than that.

The last two H&Rs that I bought was a .243 thumbhole Ultra Varmint and a .444 Marlin, both shot excellent out of the box. The 243 with factory Rem 80gr and the 444 with 265gr Hornady handloads.

For more info on H&Rs and TCs check out the NEF/H&R Centerfire forum and the Encore/Contender Forum at Graybeard Outdoors.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php

quote:

Originally posted by brayhaven:

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
Geee that is so sad
Just like all the other Father's days huh?

Not sad at all. & of course you are prima facia evidence that you don't need intelligence or ability to father children. Any dickhead can do it.

If you are representative of the manufacturing mentality in America, it's no wonder the trade deficit is in the trillions. We/you deserve it.
Greg
"It ain't ignorance so much as some knowing a lot that just ain't so" Josh Billings

I thought you said this discusssion was over twice.
Like I said thanks for staying out of the gene pool.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
ireload2 wrote:

quote:

But like you said
You would not make comments about items you are not thoroughly familiar with.

Why would you ASSUME I am not familiar with it???

I am very familiar with the rifle. And I still don't consider it anything near "perfect."

You obviously know NOTHING about mechanical design do you?

ireload2-

I've sat back and watched you try and elevate yourself above the others here and artificially buouy your own ego with constant references to your job description and how the company you are employed by dwarfs TC, etc -- and then there are the cheap shots and personal attacks you've directed at brayhaven for no apparent reason.

Just because YOU have an OPINION doesn't mean everyone else is wrong if they think differently.

If you can't contribute intelligent discussion, then don't waste bandwidth with your garbled attempts to intimidate others. It may go over with flying colors in your workplace or in your home, but the IQ level here is a little too high for you to get by with that crap.

'Nuff said.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
ireload2-

I've sat back and watched you try and elevate yourself above the others here and artificially buouy your own ego with constant references to your job description and how the company you are employed by dwarfs TC, etc -- and then there are the cheap shots and personal attacks you've directed at brayhaven for no apparent reason.

Just because YOU have an OPINION doesn't mean everyone else is wrong if they think differently.

If you can't contribute intelligent discussion, then don't waste bandwidth with your garbled attempts to intimidate others. It may go over with flying colors in your workplace or in your home, but the IQ level here is a little too high for you to get by with that crap.

'Nuff said.

Ok where is your pedigree that says you know what you are talking about? You guys got bent out of shape because I said the TC was over priced. That is based on what it costs to manufacture the parts in today's market. If you disagree you can provide some facts to back it up. Otherwise you are just trying to shout me down with no backup.
For example give me ONE good reason why a 10" Contender barrel costs nearly as much as a 21" inch contender barrel. They can make two 10 inch barrels with the same blank.
PS In any reasonable production quantities the lug for a Contender would cost about $15 to make and I am being pretty generous.
Heliarc welding in production is priced about $1 per inch. If TC pays $40 for a 24 inch long tube you can see where this is going.

Cost Estimating Software

ireload2-

Since you are such a guru in this arena, and since the TCs are so grossly "overpriced," go ahead and start up a plant and produce your own line of single shots. With your extreme knowledge and expertise, you will be a millionaire overnight. After all, you know all there is to know from lathe to legal, right?

To be sure, complete rifles for $400 and pistol barrels at around $100 each -- all at the same or better quality levels of the Contenders and Encores -- would sell like hotcakes.

When can I order mine?????????

ireload2 wrote:

quote:

For example give me ONE good reason why a 10" Contender barrel costs nearly as much as a 21" inch contender barrel. They can make two 10 inch barrels with the same blank.

Wow...you work in the business of cost estimating and can't figure this out?? Hmmmm.....

How about this: EVERY barrel must have a lug. EVERY barrel must be chambered. EVERY barrel must have an extractor. EVERY barrel must be drilled and tapped. EVERY barrel must be crowned. EVERY barrel must be finished. EVERY barrel must...well, I'd HOPE you'd get the picture.

The difference in price between 10 and 23 inch (there are no 21 inchers offered in standard factory configuration anymore, FYI)barrels is minimal. But the BLANK is only ONE aspect of the costs involved. You are also paying for PROFESSIONAL SERVICE.

It's not like you get a blank, cut it in half and have 2 ready-to-go barrels...

quote:

For example give me ONE good reason why a 10" Contender barrel costs nearly as much as a 21" inch contender barrel. They can make two 10 inch barrels with the same blank.

Wow, I mean REALLY? Is that a serious question?


I normally stay out of juvenile exchanges like your's because it's pretty obvious that all your interested in is the argument itself...

But, if you don't understand the simple concept of the barrel "blank" is the cheapest part of the cost of making a barrel, then you've really shown how little you understand manufacturing....

Well done.

So what is it that you REALLY DO for a living?

BTW, I'm not sure how it is you THINK you're coming acrossed in this little "spat" of yours, but you come across on this thread as an immature little punk kid.

That makes me doubt very much as to whether you have any "professional" experience at all. If you're a "professional", then why don't you act like and talk like one?

Most large corporate structures wouldn't tollerate your immature communications style, let alone give you access to customers for fear of the crappy image you would give of the company.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
Like I said thanks for staying out of the gene pool.

And yours could use a shot of Chlorine

Sorry folks, couldn't resist.

We may as well quit encouraging the guy. He's a living argument for a waiting period & background check... for the purchase of a computer .

quote:

Originally posted by Slowpoke Slim:

quote:

For example give me ONE good reason why a 10" Contender barrel costs nearly as much as a 21" inch contender barrel. They can make two 10 inch barrels with the same blank.

Wow, I mean REALLY? Is that a serious question?


I normally stay out of juvenile exchanges like your's because it's pretty obvious that all your interested in is the argument itself...

But, if you don't understand the simple concept of the barrel "blank" is the cheapest part of the cost of making a barrel, then you've really shown how little you understand manufacturing....

Well done.

So what is it that you REALLY DO for a living?

BTW, I'm not sure how it is you THINK you're coming acrossed in this little "spat" of yours, but you come across on this thread as an immature little punk kid.

That makes me doubt very much as to whether you have any "professional" experience at all. If you're a "professional", then why don't you act like and talk like one?

Most large corporate structures wouldn't tollerate your immature communications style, let alone give you access to customers for fear of the crappy image you would give of the company.

And your positive contribution to this thread is ?

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
ireload2-

Since you are such a guru in this arena, and since the TCs are so grossly "overpriced," go ahead and start up a plant and produce your own line of single shots. With your extreme knowledge and expertise, you will be a millionaire overnight. After all, you know all there is to know from lathe to legal, right?

To be sure, complete rifles for $400 and pistol barrels at around $100 each -- all at the same or better quality levels of the Contenders and Encores -- would sell like hotcakes.

When can I order mine?????????

Like I said I work with machined parts for a living. Does that frustrate you?
What is the basis for your TC cost expertise?

quote:

Originally posted by brayhaven:

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
Like I said thanks for staying out of the gene pool.

And yours could use a shot of Chlorine

Sorry folks, couldn't resist.

We may as well quit encouraging the guy. He's a living argument for a waiting period & background check... for the purchase of a computer .

How about a little rotenone in yours?

My contribution was the 13th one on the FIRST page, long before junior high let out and all the playground shennanigans started...

Maybe you should read it?

Which is of far more value than anything you have posted in this thread. I don't know how you can claim to be an adult in society with conduct like yours. It's pathetic...

Your "fatherhood" comments went off the scale, even for a troll.

I am DONE with you now. You are obviously a punk and a troll. I doubt very much by your antics here that you are even out of high school. Find someone else to argue with, you are too trivial a speck to get anymore consideration from me on any future posts...

You will be my first "ignore".

My hat is off to brayhaven for patiently enduring such a despicable personal attack from an obvious troll. I've never met you or corresponded with you, brayhaven, but you must be a gentleman sir.

quote:

Originally posted by Slowpoke Slim:
My contribution was the 13th one on the FIRST page, long before junior high let out and all the playground shennanigans started...

Maybe you should read it?

Which is of far more value than anything you have posted in this thread. I don't know how you can claim to be an adult in society with conduct like yours. It's pathetic...

Your "fatherhood" comments went off the scale, even for a troll.

I am DONE with you now. You are obviously a punk and a troll. I doubt very much by your antics here that you are even out of high school. Find someone else to argue with, you are too trivial a speck to get anymore consideration from me on any future posts...

You will be my first "ignore".

My hat is off to brayhaven for patiently enduring such a despicable personal attack from an obvious troll. I've never met you or corresponded with you, brayhaven, but you must be a gentleman sir.

Oh I see now. You started the use of curse words. Be my guest and ignore away if you can't hack a difference of opinion. The ability to switch barrels is related to expense isn't it?
As in ----it is cheaper to switch than to buy a complete gun?

Positive contributions to this thread expired way back. What started as a simple question has gone from marketing, fatherhood, machining, back to fatherhood, pricing structures, cost analysis, name calling, cursing, bashing and beyond.
But hey, I encourage it. its my daily dose of life outside of work.

TC for all the reasons I stated before.



Hows that 6.5 shootin for ya Bobby ?