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One of Us |
Hi which one would you choose or why? regards yes Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | ||
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The TCs are easier and perhaps more versatile to use. Yes, you can send your Handi frame back to the factory and get it fitted with a different barrel/caliber, but with TCs, it's simply a matter of purchasing another barrel. Plus, with TC, you have options such as SSK, Bullberry, Coyote Guns, Match Grade Machine, Van Horn, Eabco and others -- virtually an unlimited array of options. ANd then there's Bergara and the TC Custom Shop (though the latter is not truly a custom shop but simply offers an expanded line of calibers, contours and finishes over the "standard" TC items). Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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I've always chosen T/C Contenders and Encores as they can be pistols as well as long guns. Otherwise I must admit an complete NEF long gun costs about as much as a spare barrel for a Contender or Encore (MSRP at least); something to consider if money is tight. | |||
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TCS are too expensive for what you get, NEFs are not flexible enough due to the fitting required. Both are missing the mark. | |||
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I disagree with the "too expensive for what you get" statment. You can have a lot more cartridges to play with and still have room in a gun safe with one receiver and multiple barrels. I also don't think $550 for a quality firearm is out of line. I've never tried a NEF rifle. The thing about having to get extra barrels you wanted to add fitted would not appeal to me. Also, as I understand it, there is no option to turn a NEF rifle into a handgun. As you may guess, I would go with an Encore. | |||
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The TC guns I've had experience with are well thought out and manufactured but clumsy. The NEF's are accurate and reliable, rough but useable quality without pazzazz. Neither rifle has the solid welcoming feel of a Browning 1895 or Ruger #1. I'd like to see a quality single shot rifle that will take down like the Blaser or Krieghoff with some elan and style, just not $5K worth of elan and style. | |||
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I calculate the cost for manufacturing new products for a living. The Encore is about $100 to high for what you get. It is well finished but otherwise is not a high quality firearm. It is only of average quality. The extra barrels are over priced considering the volumes they are manufactured in. You really get ripped on the pistol barrels since they can get two barrels for one blank. Sooner or later the high labor costs of New England will shut down the firearms endustry there. A fact of life. If the Handis were truly interchangable and improved the finish and wood a little I think they would wipe out the Encore. | |||
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Sort of like Thompson/Center TCR '83 or '87, but with a lever release fore end, and without the "three hands required" safety? | |||
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If they're missing the mark, I wonder how they keep selling so many of them.  The contenders have a cult following. I used to do some outdoor writing, way back when & talked to Warren Center about the Contender. When he asked what I thought of a quality break open pistol. I told him to forget it. Folks were going to spray-n-pray high capacity handguns. Thank God he didn't listen to me  . One of the most successful American guns ever produced.I really don't care about mfg costs Vs selling price. As a marketing man, I'd be much more interested in market acceptance/share, which it clearly has. The NEF is a poor mans, cheap rifle. It also has a market, but a different one than the T/C's. I expect the NEF's to get a boost, if other state's follow MS's lead in allowing them to be used in Muzzle loading seasons. Of course the inlines will suffer if that happens. "You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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 Whaaat?!! | |||
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Last year, Mississippi added several breech loading smokeless cartridge rifles to their approved list of weapons legal for their primitive weapons season. H&R/NEF rifles 38 cal and larger are legal, to include 38-55, 44 mag, 444, 45 colt, 45-70 and 500 S&W. Apparently they have so many deer, they're getting desparate to control them. http://www.mdwfp.com/Level2/Wildlife/pdf/Final/2005/Primitive%20Weapons.pdf http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10913 | |||
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Yes and with at least minute of deer's heart accuracy. | |||
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They don't. They are not that popular in many parts of the country. Hang out on the TC boards and you will find they seem to be concentrated in the woodlands. | |||
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With the TC, you are paying for the versatility of easy caliber changes, as well as easy conversion from pistol to rifle and back, not to mention either rimfire or centerfire cartridges on the same receiver. They have a good solid reputation and TC stands behind their products 100%. You also have a true "cottage industry" of custom barrels in just about any caliber you can think of. You are paying for the versatility. If you only want ONE caliber, you'd be missing the point of the TC system completely. NEF makes a damn cheap rifle. Period. Yes, there will ALWAYS be a market for a damn cheap rifle, but it is what it is, and they don't really try to market it as anything else. Nothing wrong with the NEF product, it fills a need in the gun market, but it sure as hell is a far cry from the TC! Si tantum EGO eram dimidium ut bonus ut EGO memor | |||
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They've sold over 600,000 contenders & Encores. & countless extra barrels. Don't know what you call a lot, but I call that a lot of single shot break open pistol/rifles. In the woodlands? I think that's where the hunters & the deer are Both are an excellent value and have a solid market niche & dedicated following. They are dead on "the mark". Maybe you should give T/C a call & tell them they should sell em cheaper & they missed the mark. I'd love to see a price cut  on my favorite knocking around guns."You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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Well I live in the mountain states, shoot alot on the prairie and I can assure you they are quite popular in my house. Have been since 1979. Silly comparison anyway, one is the cheapest centerfire rifle a man can buy, the other is a well made and well finished rifle costing all of twice as much and more. Those 'over priced barrels' that were referenced in the earlier post...you ought to try and buy one. You will go on a waiting list to get anything custom. This would be the first indicator that there is some popularity even for a barrel costing more than two complete Handi/NEFs. Not likely you will find anyone that will build a barrel for a Handi using a Shilen/Douglass/Pacnor/GreenRiver barrel blank either. | |||
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I own several TC products and have for about 20 years. The only reason the TC items are so expensive is the low volume. The same goes for the boutique barrels. You are talking about one and two man shops trying to scratch out a living. There is nothing efficient about them. That is why they go out of business like a number of them have. One of the better known makers of barrels went back to driving a truck for a living. That an Encore costs $550 is preposterous. It is nothing but low volume and expensive New England labor. | |||
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ireload2 wrote:
Can you tell us who that would be? Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Actually, The T/C product are an excellent value for the money. I have no idea where you're getting your data, other than your opinion, but you are incorrect in your assessment of the products & pricing. If they were overpriced (there is an obvious market), a competitor would be offering a lower priced alternative. There are none that come close. "You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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I think you logic is backwards. The market is limited and there is not much money to be made in it. My data comes from years of working in manufacturing. There is not much deader than a TCR. | |||
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ireload2 wrote:
Who's discussing a TCR??? We are talking about current production Encores, Contenders and Handi-Rifles. ireload2 also wrote: "The market is limited and there is not much money to be made in it." Really??? If that's the case, SSK, Bullberry, Match Grade Machine, Van Horn, Bellm, Eben Brown, Coyote Guns, OTT and others wouldn't be turning a profit cranking out Contender and Encore barrels. And a number of those mentioned above have been doing so for many years (a few for a number of decades), so if they weren't turning a profit, they'd have shut down by now... Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Well my "data" comes from 40 years of gunsmithing & a marketing degree. Of course the market is "limited". All markets are; particularly specialty niche gun markets, but T/C totally dominates this one. They have sold 600,000 plus units, at what you call "preposterous prices". They must be making some money I'm glad you are so concerned with T/C's bottom line. Awhile ago you were whining they were making too much on their guns. Try to be more consistent . TCR???"You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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hahahahaha don't complain, you picked the major you could not make a living in marketing and turned to gunsmithing hehehehe? The TCR is an example of a failure....get it. It was over priced too. Most of the Contenders popularity comes from its use as a handgun not as a rifle. Over priced either way, but especially as a handgun. 600,000 what....do you have data on that? Muzzle loaders, handgun Contenders, carbine Contenders, Encores? Come on we all know that marketers are all hot air. In how many years? How many units per year? Like I said above those are mom and pop shops making those barrels. Most do other work and I suspect none are getting rich . | |||
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You've shown a propensity in this thread to shoot off your mouth with no knowledge of the subject, and have done so again. Complain??? no, I made an excellent living in marketing and semi-retired @ 40, Corp. VP MKTG, and completely retired, 10 years ago @ 50 as a mktg consultant. I've also been a gunsmith on the side since age 20 and have done well at that too. As usual, when someone has totally lost an argument, they attack the other party(s) in the discussion. It simply means you have nothing valid to say, but we knew that from the first post. Now, don't you have some homework or something to do Anyone, with the mentality of a lobotomized earthworm, can see that T/C makes an excellent product, at a fair price, backs it 100% (value added), and completely dominates their target market with these 2 products. End of discussion. "You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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I think The Handi-Rifle is an excellent product,for what it is and costs.I have always thought TC as a Premium Product at a fair price.Lets see I have 2 Contender Pistols,4 barrels, a 22 Classic,a Omega 50 cal and as soon as I can find one of their new Bolt Actions will have one of those.I had a TC 83 Aristocrat that my brother talked me out of(DANG).I am just an average TC Customer.Satisfied and a Customer for life.To me when you get a TC product,you get more than you paid for!!!!!!!  | |||
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"40 years of gunsmithing" yeah right Ah yes retired early ...translation looked for a way lay down and not work. Semi-retired - Translation can't get a job Standard modus operandi - when a marketeer speaks it is alway spin. That is the essence of marketing. A marketing degree your problem not mine. Like I said the marketing degree is not something I would brag about. If you are doing so well you would not have to back into gunsmithing to make ends meet. I have far more knowledge of the cost of manufacturing products than you can imagine. TC's stuff is way over priced and you cannot possibly provide data that proves otherwise. the Encore has no more COGS in it than a Handi Rifle.....So explain the difference in price? I am sure that if NEF changed to an interchangable barrel set up and offered a hand gun version you would see TC nose dive. | |||
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ireload2- Why the personal attacks on brayhaven? They are adding nothing to the discussion. And to correct you on something: There is a marked difference in quality between a Handi rifle and a TC Contender or Encore. It doesn't take a genius or a manufacturing guru to be able to see that from nothing more than a cursory glance. Also, you still haven't answered my earlier question. You said a better-known barrel maker went back to driving a truck. Who would that be??? Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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The "data" that proves otherwise, is their market share, which is huge. Free Markets determine whether something is overpriced. You have no clue, just as you have no clue about my success in marketing. I retired because I made all the money I needed. (& because I didn't have kids ) I did gunsmithing all these years because I enjoyed it. Not because I had to do it. I always mainained a complete gunsmithing shop, including machine tools, blueing operation etc. and put in 20-30 hours a week in the shop. I probably did more work than a lot of full time smiths, mostly building custom rifles. Not because I had to. I also studied under some excellent smiths & instructors. I actually started gunsmithing earlier than that, by buying & sporterizing military rifles while I was in high school. People would also bring me their guns to work on. So I guess it goes way back, more than 40 years. I've always said, gunsmithing is like the hiccups. You aren't sure how you got started & it's hard to stop .Can't get a job?? That's a laugh. I've never been without a job  I've lived off investments since age 50, from what I earned as a marketing exec & consultant. The only "work" I've done sine 97 is gunsmith 4-6 hrs a day. The rest is spent at other fun things like antique boats, shooting competition, riding, kayaking, volunteer work etc, etc. You remind me of an old prof I had in college. He was often wrong, but seldom in doubt. Every time he opened his mouth, he dug himself in deeper. Say g'night "ire". "You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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brayhaven, I think its obvious to most of us that you are a class act.It is too bad that some people, when they have no facts, have to rely on personal attacks. OB  | |||
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Quote by Bray on another thread... "T/C is famous for sloppy chambers. Many are misaligned with the bore." Quote by Bobby Tomek on another thread. "TC is infamous for oversized and mis-aligned chambers." What gives guys???? I thought TC produced dependable high quality stuff? | |||
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Actually he brought up his "Personal Qualifications" to demonstrate his credibility on the subject. There are other ways to interpret his qualifications. Note that his degree is in marketing. | |||
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This was reported by Dennis Bellm in his own words about 4 to 6 years ago. What his current status is I do not know. How ever it appears that his shop time is limited at his current web site. | |||
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And you remind me of someone that comes from an area of the country where the vocabulary is made up of about 3 words - retirement, pension, social security ....nice job to not reproduce yourself though. Happy Father's Day!! Got to go, my kids and grand daughter are here. | |||
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Actually, to those who know him, he goes by "Mike" Bellm, not Dennis. And he has been doing what he's doing full time for as long as I can remember. The only time away from the shop of any significance was when his wife took a turn for the worst before passing away (he has his priorities in the right place, I might add) a few years ago. Lastly, his web site is NO indication of the volume of work he does. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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The truck driving story was his not mine. He had been making barrels from scratch and he quit that business. If you had knowledge of his situation he once worked with Ackley. I don't think he makes barrels from scratch anymore. | |||
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Yep, anyone who knows Mike knows of his years with Ackley. It had no bearing here, so I saw no need to mention it. After all, you were talking about "6-8" years ago -- long after the Ackley years. And Mike does still turn out barrels -- though not from scratch -- but has concentrated his efforts more on correcting the mistakes that slip past TC. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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>>>but has concentrated his efforts more on correcting the mistakes that slip past TC.<<< Whether I know Mr Bellm or not has no bearing on this either. What I related to you was posted by him on another site. The fact is he was making complete TC barrels in the past and now he does not. Much of what we have discussed has been about the relative value of TC products. Some of that is due to the mistakes they make. Neither you nor the marketeer have responded to my post that quoted your own comments about TC chambers. | |||
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No one addressed your quotes from OTHER threads because they are not relevant to the conversation here. No one familiar with them will ever deny that TC has turned out some barrels with sloppy chambers. But we are not talking about chambers here. We are talking about a system -- and about your grouping the TCs as equals with the Handi-rifles. That's pure hogwash, plain and simple. There is not now nor has there ever been a "perfect" firearm. But I'd wager that if there was, it would be "about $100 too high" in your estimation... Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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You are grasping at straws now. Everything is irrelevant if it does not support your statements? TCs chambers are part of the TC "value". Show me where I used the word equal in the context "about your grouping the TCs as equals with the Handi-rifles" And by the way have you ever owned or fired a Handi rifle? Perfect firearm....yeah a Browning 1885 Highwall is pretty close. Like I said before I make a living in manufacturing working with machined parts. I know what it costs to make them. That includes raw materials, machine time, setup time, outside or special processes. | |||
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ireload2 wrote: "And by the way have you ever owned or fired a Handi rifle?" Yep. Been there. Done that -- and still have a couple of them in the safe. Also, I won't make comments and comparisons about items I am not thoroughly familiar with. ireload 2 also wrote: "Perfect firearm....yeah a Browning 1885 Highwall is pretty close." That rifle would not even make my top 10. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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