Chuck

YES. Admittedly, with regard to the facts of the instant case, I maybe jumping the gun.

However, before I became an attorney I was a CPA in there someplace. But it doesn't even take a CPA to know that one of the major problems with startup companies is cash flow.

A company can have the best employees in the world, the latest technology, and an in demand product. However, if the company doesn't have CASH to support work in process it doesn't get far. Next best thing is stockholders.

Blue

People

Many responding to Howards question seem to be missing the obvious. MRC is still in business and working through typical early production problems. I for one, have worked with other "initial offerings" and am delighted at the progress of product and the process.

I could understand if you were complaining because a company had taken your money, run into problems and gone belly up with no hope of recovery. That is the risk with this type of offering. If this company were run by typical bean counters or had usual legal advice, each action would be a separate legal "company", with each offering at risk by itself. As it is, by combining the offerings under one umbrella, MRC is using a process beneficial to us all.

I may have missed something, but I have not heard or seen a request from MRC for either additional funds or advice. Seems a bit presumptuous to suggest they take a potentially profitable operation and go "public" with a stock offering, especially at this time with the CZ development.

I have a short RH, and am waiting patiently for the LH longs. Shouldn't we all be thankful that these people put themselves at risk to develop the products we all love?

Roger

I'll be a year next month that MCR charged my credit card for a LH short action. I was told it would be the end of October and had a price and piece of wood already picked out at Accrabond (Serengeti)
I'm still waiting and I don't know if Rod saved my AA Claro or not
The delay is a blessing for me, I spent the money on a present for my wife and I need a little extra time to save up again.
I'd like my new 358 for this fall, but I've got enough other guns that would fill in if needed.
$350 tied up waiting for a gun isn't a big thing for me, I'll happily wait for the product, and I figure by the time they get into the LH actions their learning curve is going to be right at the top and I should end up getting a superior action.

All:

This is a question that should be directed to MRC, no doubt, but, if I order say, a RH long action today, is it available for shipment? In other words, have all of the back orders for ANY of the actions been completely filled? Has anyone RECENTLY ordered an action and had it delivered? Howard's frustration is one of the reasons I didn't go with the charter program--I'd be chomping at the bit right now, too. And I have the wrong type of personality to wait and wait and wait.

MRC? Yoohoo, MRC? They HAVE been conspiculously (is that a word?) absent....

MKane160 aka BigDogMK

Well...I guess I started this by mentioning the CZ M3, so I've felt a little duty-bound to run the defense. I know the MRC team got back on Tuesday, and in the scale of things probably have a lot more to clean up after ten days out of the shop.

Also...when I was over there, it was me who jumped on here every day with updates and info. Being an ex-deccie (for those of you who know what that means), it is second nature to go to the internet, especially here.

As to the staying with the LH action machining house so long...well...that's how relationships are built. You go the extra mile with a supplier in hopes that it will work out. They are good at what they do. They would probably do a great job. For some reason the "internal" motivation was not enough and after five months, it just broke down.

I recently ordered five 4140 magnum short actions. Got them on 2/6 after three weeks of waiting. I've had some stainless for about a month.

I've got a lot of blanks with names on them. Need a little better hint as to who's name should be on what AA blank.

Rod,

Thanks for clearing up the CZ arrangement. If charter buyers are getting actions ahead of CZ (that is, RH charter, RH CZ; LH charter, LH CZ), that's a good thing. CZ is pouring cash into the venture, and Montana has a big incentive to finish the charter lines in order to start deliveries to the big volume customer (CZ). I feel a lot better that Montana did not drop the charter buyers to court CZ but rather delivered to the charter buyers ahead and then CZ (with the RH actions). Now I wish CZ had me LH long actions in their catalog.

H. C.

I have no ties to MRC and do not have nor am I waiting on any of their actions but ...



I deal with outsourcing jobs or subcontracting also. And yes it is true that relationships are built through time and understanding. You want to pick the best shop for the job and one that will not only handle the low intial orders but will be able to handle your projected increase in product as well. This way you maximize the learning curve of the product line. Each supplier/subcontractor has a learning curve they have to go through to get the products up to snuff and when you change suppliers/subcontracotrs all that learning is lost in the area effected by the change. This in tern results in an increse in rejected parts until things get up to snuff again. Thus there can be great reluctance to change an outsourcing to another shop. Plus you have to add in time finding a new facility that is willing to take the job and work through the contracting process and delivery schedules and then the learning curve issues once they start. Now take into account that the startup numbers are relatively low. This translates to low cash flow for this company. If they have several other high dollar contracts you can find your supplier slow to deliver. Untill your contract dollars grow you are not as important to them as they are to you. Now low dollar intial contracts may get a high level of importance if the sub sees tremendous growth potential. Thus he sees a high dolloar contract in the works for the future. Now you priorty is different in his eyes. A small shop needs every contract it can get so it will give even small contracts high importance but they may not be able to handle the increase in product line. It only complicates things more to have two shops working the same product since you now have to worry about QC at two locations or you have to change mid stream and go through all of the above.



More more subcontractors you have the larger the headaches. But it can lower your starup costs to outsource until you can afford to bring things in-house. New businesses such as this need to outsource to reduce their overhead and intitial debt liability in order to optimize their chances for fiscal viability. Once established bringing in certain operations can enhance efficiency and keep costs down. It is just too much at the begining.

Sounds very sensible - good post, different perspective from somebody with experience in outsourcing situations.
- mike

WOW!!!!! The CZ deal sure has got everyone excited. Let me try to explain, if I may.



First of all the Charter Issue was never done to finance a deal with CZ. The CZ deal came long after the Charter Issue.



We are working hard to take care of all the existing orders before we send one single action to CZ. I can assure you that every single Stainless Right Hand Short Action order was filled before any actions were sent to CZ.



CZ-USA approached us about our action because they wanted a 100% U.S. made product. Before any deal was struck up between the Montana Rifle Company and CZ it was stipulated that our current customers MUST come first. This was not only to aviod any negative comments around the industry and on AR, but to try to make our sales staffs job much easier. I was adament about the fact that our current customers come first. We could not afford to take the hit by pushing any of them aside.



The reason we decided to do the CZ deal is simple economics. We are a new company and the deal to be honest with you would make the company money. But it is much more than that. Everything was looked at before we struck up the deal. With the money made from this deal we could start doing major R & D on new products. No money from our existing customers is going towards this.



We are not delaying any customer orders to fill CZ. Currently the assembly staff of the Montana Rifle Company is working their butts off to get actions out the door. We are shipping an average of 20-30 actions each and every day. And we will continue this pace until all orders have been filled.



I just now spoke to Brian (2/20/04 9:58a.m. MST), the owner of the Montana Rifle Company and he has given me a new update as to where we are.



LEFT HAND LONG ACTIONS: Currently there are 40 Left Hand Long actions in the machine shop. They started machining them on Wednesday. He stated that they should be done machining them today or Monday. Once they are done being machined they go to the machine shops QA department for measuring etc. Then they go to the shipping department where they are serialized. He stated that this usually takes a couple of days. The reason that it is such a small batch is that they are for "proving up" the molds to ensure that they are producing accurate parts. He said that once the serialization is done they are then shipped to S & W for heat treating (only about 50 miles away). This usually takes approximately 1 to 2 days. Then they are sent to the polishing house in Minnesota. Considering shipping times, this will usually add about 3 days. The polishing doesn't usually take too long, and I anticipate that they would be done in approximately 3 business days. After talking to Brian he stated that he expects to see the Left Hand Longs in about 2 weeks.



LEFT HAND SHORT ACTIONS: Talking to Brian he said that they should start machining the left hand shorts on Monday or Tuesday. He was not 100% sure of the configuration (i.e. Stainless or Chrome Moly, standard or magnum) that they would be doing first. He stated that they will begin machining the same material that they last finished on. So if they were doing stainless then the stainless will be first. If they were doing Chrome Moly then that is what they will begin with. He stated that they had to do it this way due to the fact that machining each material is different as far as the feeds and speeds of the machine. He said that right now he expects to see the first left hand shorts about the second week of March. We expected the sooner but unfortunately our hands are tied to what the machine shop gets done.



We are working hard to get everything done as quickly as possible. We are not delaying anything on purpose or to fill some other companies orders. We know how long everyone has been waiting and believe me, it drives us nuts too.



If you have any questions please do not hesitate to email me at mtrifle@montanarifleman.com or call me. I will do my best to give you the most accurate information I have at my disposal.



Dan



BTW here is an actual photo of a left hand short action

Superb post, Dan.

Definitive detail is exactly what was needed.

Just curious how many of guys have ever paid your gunsmith or a "name" gunsmith only to have the delivery time extended many times past the original quote. It seems to be characteristic of the breed. MRC is no exception and they certainly are not the first in the industry to miss a deadline. My guess is you purchased the product out of frustration with other makers quality control issues? Living with a quality product is always easier than a rushed POS.

I didn't order the actions out of frustration, I ordered them because they were stainless left hand actions and they are Made in the USA. The price was low as hell and I didn't have to part out a full Winchester 70 just to get the actions that I needed.

Joe

Thanks Dan! As ususal the straight of the matter!

You must be a TROLL! Shame on you taking a shot at MRC like this and in public no less. After all, don't you get the straight of it from Montana Dan and Serengeti Rod, the guy who whittles out the Ubangi Bond plywood stocks,when he's not playing head apoligist for Mrc. Stay under the bridge like a good troll, and be nice.

Walex

Your damn post is day late and several dollars short Being the opportunist I am, I set up a pool regarding what hour of what day you'd chime in. I bought several of the initial squares to get the ball rolling and missed on all accounts. Now go back under the bridge.

Sorry I,m late, but had to make a trip out on the deep blue, makin' $500.00 a minute, sellin' crabs to Brer' Rabbit Fish Co. Couldn't resist stirring the "pot", to see how many turds floated up. Congratulations, you were the first!

500.00 a minute huh!!!! well how about spending a 1/2 minutes worth on some professional help, you could use at least an hours worth but a 1/2 minutes worth is a step in the right direction

Walex,
It (still) has to hurt to be you!!!!!!!!!!!!


Huntr

Walex

Not so fast I was ready for ya
The stink didn't stick with this revolutionary product!

Well looky here,little jimmy boy, just knew this little turd would float up what took you so long, you little shit flinging monkey!! YIP YIP YIP! Now scamper back up in your tree. Amazin' how the scum rises to the occasion on this site. A pool on you guys wouldn't be any fun. You are too predictable. PS please send some of the repellant, guys like your bunch get off the boat every once in a while, we Alaskans should have stocked up on it years ago.