This is what appears to have happened. They took my money, exceeded their anticipated delivery date by months, offered up one excuse after another then it appears they have taken my money and used it to finance an operation to create a product to sell to CZ. Meanwhile I still wait.

Does it shoot well?

Don

If you have a left hand action in the works, then the issue with CZ is unrelated. CZ is waiting for LH just like everyone else. They got their RH actions after everyone else. I could name the target to throw stones at - the folks who promised MRC much (regarding machining of LH actions) but did not deliver anything. But, what good would that do.


MRC will take the heat and they should (buck stops here).

Don't have anything to shoot.

Howard, Don't have anything to shoot.

I have an extra 10/22 you can shoot

No.. But you may lack the patience for this type of business arrangement. Not a shot at you, just an observation that some who opted for a charter issue deal may have not fully appreciated the difficulty of such an undertaking. It is not the same as a straight-up sale because the seller can only project the difficulties of production as opposed to selling based upon completed production runs. :Murphy's law plays no favorites. IIf you wished to avoid this particular pitfall you should have waited and been prepared to pay full price for a risk-free deal.

What tigger said...

I'll take the deep discount for the lead time, *IF* i am apprised of it.

Give em a call, ask for a refund, if they aren't going to deliver.

should be as easy as that

jeffe

Well, I thought the exact same thing as Howard. I think his point was that the charter issue money collected from non commercial customers was used to create a product for CZ and many of those people who funded the project still have nothing to show for it. If that isn't close to his point, it sums up my thoughts. I'm not ripping MRC, but it looks bad to me and I'm sure lots of other people as well. I think if I was in their shoes I would have been a lot more carefull with my predictions of when the actions would hit the street. I'm also quite sure a lot of people got on the Charter bandwagon to help get a good thing rolling and not just to save a few bucks. I have a MRC and like it. I'll probably buy another, so don't think I'm bashing them.

Dempsey nailed it exactly what I tried to say.

I don't mind waiting, the left handed actions I have on order are for my seven year old son. I don't like waiting if the situation is as Dempsey articulated.

I'm just catching up with the MRC situation, but they are a reputable outfit and I expect they'll make good sooner rather than later.

I know they are 'way behind what they hoped for, but they seem to be telling the truth to us. I'm an engineer, and so to me the changing story that every one points to as a "bad thing" smacks of reality. In situations like theirs, unless you really nail the contractor (machinist) down in the initial terms of the contract, when the contractor falls behind you are at their mercy. The contractor will then try to re-use as much of their setup for the various models as they can, and the result may be a change in the sequence of model production. If the machinist has under bid the job and you push him too hard he will cut quality (which nobody wants) or go bankrupt (and maybe take MRC down, too.) It sounds to me like MRC is putting forth honest effort and is winning through.

But I always was somewhat of a Pollyanna.

I do want to see somebody more atune to us hunters than Winchester or Remington making rifles, though. I'm willing to buy my ticket and take my chances.

Don

Howard,

In my opinion, you should contact MRC rather than air your dirty laundry in public. But you do seem to have a track record of trashing people in public. You must obviously still think they have a good product otherwise you would've already asked for a refund.

If I were in the market for a new action to build on, I would still order one.

Zach



Explain why it's ok for a company to promote their product here and not for a consumer to ask legitimate questions on that companys product or business practices? It may be a hard concept for you to grasp but a person can think a company makes a good product and still question their business tactics, no? Nobody is condeming them to hell here.

Zach,
Yo, where you been??????????????????? MRC WAS the first to post info. when all news was good, now? I created a post about Winchester M70 short actions, and when they would be available andone of the first posts I got was from MRC trying to get me into their "charter" program!! My post was specific to WINCHESTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I do not wish ill will on MRC, as I have said, if they EVER get their actions into full production I will buy one. Until then I am happy with the lefty M70's that trickle out.

Huntr

The money collected from the Charter created the product period. AFTER delivering the RH and LH SA molds Ruger send out some sample castings. MRC then sent the LH to a new entity for machining. The RH went to the same house that did the Long RH actions.

The old place delivered. The new one did not. and did not. and did not. FIVE months went by and MRC pulled the plug.

Right about then CZ became interested in the SA and since RH was flowing just fine, a bunch were made for them - AFTER the charter issue was ful-filled.

Is this bad? NO! It's great. It means cash flow and reinvestiment by MRC in new actions...like the PH. Like others we've all talked about over the last months.

As far as predictions go.... Let's say you go to a really big, well-known place and they completely blew their commitment week after week. At some point you have give it up and bail. Maybe MRC waited too long. That was their error, giving a well-known firm the benefit of the doubt.

Matt, you're right on the money. 3-4 weeks max. That's the sad part. The firm I've been mentioning kept missing. These were the qualification units, the first units out of the mold that would qualify the molds. OK, missed that month...no big deal, catch up next month. Or next month. Or next month. DAMN!!! Are these guys ever going to get it together?

Finally, they say, NO. Now, MRC had to move the qualification units over to the other place, get them scheduled and then qualify the molds. THEN and only then, could Ruger turn on the foundry. So LH shorties got in first and LH longs are next.

The deal with Ruger is, they will rework the molds at their cost. And they will eat any castings that are wrong - up to qualification levels (30 or so). If you order say, 300, and they are wrong...too bad. You own them. No way could MRC take that kind of risk.

Not my place to say who the miscreant party was.

Others have explained the part Murphy's Law has played in the delays, all I can do is add a bit of opinion...

I really don't believe that the head honchos at MRC are sitting around their walnut conference tables, wearing black capes and black tophats, twirling their handlebar moustaches and smoking big stogies while they laugh their butts off at how they've pulled the wool over people's eyes.

I expect the truth is that they are sweating bullets, losing sleep and doing everything in their power to make good on their promises - promises that, as has been explained in this thread and others before this one, rely on the performance of people/companies not under the direct control of MRC.

I happen to have followed some of the history in getting the MRC actions to the market, and perhaps a historical perspective is not a bad thing at this point in time.



A small company came up with a compelling idea, and decided to accept the risks involved with trying to bring it to market, because they thought the product was good and could cut itself a niche.



Being a small company prohibited MRC from taking on the complete production of the action in-house. Much of the American firearms industry is really a "cottage industry", and MRC did not fall too far outside that category. So the strategy was to do engineering and final assembly in Kalispell, but the remainder of the production steps had to be farmed out to existing production facilities. Anything else was just prohibitive in terms of investment.



In a sense designing and engineering the action was the easy part. There are quite a few companies that have come up with great new action designs, yet few of these actually make it to the market. Why? Because the complexity and cost of actually producing something as deceptively simple as a bolt action can be rather mind boggling. In particular having to deal with multiple suppliers over whom you have little control (e.g. in terms of schedule and quality) turned out to be something to be reckoned with. To some extent MRC was probably blue-eyed about the problems they had to resolve, and maybe that was a good thing, otherwise they might just have given up on the whole idea and remained a small barrel making facility.



The initial action (RH LA) went through substantial delays before finally hitting the market - actually in excess of what the current LH actions have experienced. But apart from the odd action which was not up to quality standards, the product finally met the general approval of the market. It was even good enough to make a major firearms manufacturer interested - more about that later. This was all good, MRC now had a revenue stream (even if money were still tight), and they believed they had learned the ropes, and consequently other actions could be brought to market with less of a delay.



To overcome the issue of start-up costs MRC came up with the idea of the "Charter Programs" - probably some time late 2002 or early 2003. Now that "all the bugs were out of the production process", surely it should not take long to whip up a few new actions.... Well, time has proven them (and us) wrong. Controlling an external production chain remains a complex process. Furthermore, MRC has not done itself or its customers any favours by attempting to guesstimate when final products would hit the market. Still, a lot of us did not make it any easier for them either, as we (understandably so) kept MRC under pressure to provide us with dates for delivery.



Now look at the bright side. MRC has successfully brought 2 models to market. Engineering problems seem to have been ironed out of products now in the pipe-line. In spite of the production problems, MRC knows how to get another product to market, even if the schedule may not suit us all. They have a revenue stream - i.e. they are not about to go belly-up because of startup costs.



I've said so before, but I'll repeat myself: if you can't be patient, you probably should not join in new product programs like MRC's. MRC is only one example of the inevitable delays that are involved with getting new (firearms) products to market. Feel free to vent your frustration, but do also ask yourself whether you have the right personality to participate in a new product program the next time one comes your way.



Finally, on the issue of MRC and CZ: the charter programs were announced late 2002 (or early 2003, I forget the exact dates). They actually got under way at the end of January 2003 (LH) and at the end of February (RH SA) 2003. Just in case you believe there was a major conspiracy, making you pay for the development of actions for CZ, be aware that CZ initially approached MRC sometime around late spring or early summer of 2003. There was certainly no knowledge of a possible business association with CZ in early 2003. Besides, look at it this way, without a revenue stream MRC is not going to survive long. The fact that some major orders came in put the company on a much more solid footing, which in turn benefits us all - in particular those of us (myself included) still waiting for actions to be produced.



- mike



P.S. Sorry to have been so long winded.

"Is this bad? NO! It's great. It means cash flow and reinvestiment by MRC in new actions...like the PH. Like others we've all talked about over the last months"

I thought that also when I first heard of it, along with my other thought of a lot of people without a action in hand being po'd. Regardless of the truth, perception is often the reality in the market place and this doesn't look great to some people. I'm quite sure things will march ahead...

The whole idea of a charter issue is to get a product on the market. The fact that CZ is now interested should help keep MRC in business and with any luck keep action prices at a acceptable level.

Sorry, I dropped off the map for awhile. I almost signed up for the MRC pilot program, but decided to do something else. I missed the whole CZ thing, though. What products are they putting the MRC action in?

Steve

Howard, I think Jim's assessment is pretty close to the real truth. I believe that MRC's ownership means well, that they fully intend to make good on their commitments, etc., etc.

And I also believe that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.......

Fundamentally, it sounds like the whole problem gets down to a lack of sufficient start-up capital and a lack of ongoing cash-flow (pre-paid orders notwithstanding), and this is, historically, the Achille's Heel of small manufacturers entering the firearms industry who try to take on too much too fast.

And historically, the survival rate of small, nich-market manufacturers in this industry is not good, unless they start out small, get product out quickly that sells (and resells!), and then grow into bigger, more elaborate projects that might take a while to get fully underway.

I do hope that MRC succeeds, but from what I'm hearing I have some doubts.

AD

Howard,
I think you have a gripe. And one thing that I noticed was that when they are asking for money, they post here daily. When the shit starts hitting the fan, you can not get a word out of them.

Someone said you should take it up privately with them. I do not agree. The last time someone took an issue up with them privately they could not get a response until they brought it up here. And Rod should not have to be answering for them, they can show their faces. MRC is also totally responsibe for the work and schedule of theirs subcontractors. You can not point fingers at them and you can't just granttime extensions without doing some investigation, which they seemed to have done. Left handed action orders should have been filled right along with the right handed ones. MRC dropped the ball and this deal with CZ may or may not have influenced the delays, we don't know because we have not heard from those in charge.

I saw a thread on here where they said they were changing the rules of engagement, so to speak, regarding the monetary commitment for those who have purchased actions for the PH model. They also said they would be contaction those individuals on the list to see if they concur. I am on the list and have had no contact. The noise of the balls being dropped at MRC has to get a bit tough on your ears at times.

Having age and it seems experiance over some I find a few posts to be destructive and negative. This project can go either way. You can either bail or rock the boat.



This is a gun project for cripes sakes. It's a damm good idea and it's in the air. Lets find a way to keep it going.



If your so smart and profound then call them on the phone, go out there or help out in some way.

I bought a Charter issue RH short. I figured going in that it would take longer than expected so it was no biggie to me. I have other projects in the works anyhow.

Every time I wanted an update I picked up the phone and called. Never once did I have trouble contacting people at MRC. Emails were answered within 24 hours. I either have real good luck (not the norm), or I just don't understand the problems in communication with MRC. A simple phone call worked for me.

My 'smith now has my action and reports positively on it. If I were in the market for another action I would not hesitate to buy one.

Seems to me that if the waiting is no longer tolerable, you might want to call and ask for a refund and go on down the road. In so doing though, you may miss out on a great action.....

Bill

Allen



What a wonderful opportunity for an IPO or a leveraged buyout. Maybe it is time that the people who buy the guns have a chance to own the company that makes the guns. Perhaps you and Howard, and Customstox and Jimmy could serve on the Board for awhile.



I didn't order one, although I was contacted to do so. Wanted to see what others thought about them. From the reports given by those who have received them, it sounds like they are a very very good action at a reasonable price.



So, I certainly wouldn't mind investing a small amount in a stock offering in order to keep the place going.



Blue

Should you be upset? Absolutely! Saying that, I'm not sure what we lefties can do about it. I've also been waiting for a lefthand short action for 9 months now, so I understand the frustration of not getting the product that you ordered in a timely manner. Do you remember the posts about Christmas in August? (We thought that was meant as August 2003)
I don't want to call MRC all of the time asking for updates because I figure that they're probably busy enough there without this, but when the product was being offered for sale we received daily updates and advertisements here on the boards. I do e-mail them monthly asking for updates and every other e-mail that I send gets answered, but with the very minimum of information, just a push back of estimated delivery times.
I think that what a lot of the frustration that we lefties are feeling is that we helped finance the development and production of the all of the actions but since then have been pushed to the back burner because they've found bigger fish in the market (CZ). One of the first Charter offers to fill up was the left handed short actions but now I feel like I've been relegated to the back of the bus.

Westman,

You missed the gist of my thread. I have no trouble waiting. I think Howard has a very legitimate gripe and the last time there was any big problem with them, phone calls did not work and the only thing that seemed to get them off center was getting roasted in here. I am not advocating that but they need to do a bit of PR for those that seem to have been left in the dust. I have held and examined the first issues of these actions at depth and I do feel they are a bargain, they need some work but nothing severe. If they do want to change the rules regarding charging me they will need to make contact as they said they would. I am looking forward to my PH's and have 3 on order.



And no Blue, I do not want to sit on any board. I am busy enough making a living at something I enjoy. I do not want their headaches, I spent a career doing that.



Savage, all you have ever shown on here is age and if you have any expeience it has not shown other than a very high opinion of yourself. It is not my obligation to "help". I will be helping with funding, that is my obligation. Their obligation is to deliver a product and mend some fences at times. Rod seems to be able to answer questions for them, I would think they would feel an obligation to these folks here.

Chic,
I wasn't responding to any one in particular.

Just wanted to recount my experience since one rarely hears the positive side....

I am having a hard time trying to understand why Rod is the one to answer question's reguarding MRC question's. Is he still on the payroll at MRC ?
When MRC was taking orders they were on this and other boards almost daily, now you only hear from Rod.

One cannot make LH actions out of a RH mold - no matter how much one wishes otherwise. The LH molds did not get qualified because the guys who were supposed to machine the first articles repeatedly reneged.

CZ is getting RH actions only. And they're standing in line behind a bunch of folks for LH.

It's understandable how frustration with delay makes folks want to vent...but this (CZ making a product line out of RH actions) is not a bad thing. How good it is for all of us should be obvious.

I'm a participant in MRC's Charter Program. I've received my right-hand short action and am patiently awaiting my left-hand short action. Though I too would have liked to have received the product much sooner, it's no big deal. I trust MRC will eventually deliver. I figure that with the national inflation rate running at, what?, 2%, and interest rates on savings running at, what?, 3.8%, my $350 to MRC for the short action won't have cost me more than $20 over the one year wait. I don't sweat such small stuff...life's too short.
Jerry/AK

Yeah Chuck but we're talking about $350 here. That's barely enough to put in a savings account, much less invest in anything real.

Blue, I'm with Chic, I don't want to sit on any board, and I've got too much on my plate right now to take on anything new. With me, hunting-related stuff is for fun and enjoyment, and I'm not interested in trying to make of go of it as a business.

AD

Allen and Chic

Okay, nobody wants to sit on the board. Fine.

I guess all I was saying (Maybe I should start another thread) is that if this company is actually going down the proverbial tubes, wouldn't it be better if all of the customers of this company purchased a share of stock in the company to keep the company alive? Sure, it might never pay off in a dividend, but wouldn't the dividend be having a company that might be receptive to the needs of shooters rather than the needs of high buck investors? I don't know, but I think that if such were the consensus that should be communicated to the company so that if they are having cash flow problems and are thinking about giving up the ghost they would at least know that there are people who might step in to help them keep afloat, in exchange for a few seats on the board. Hell, if nobody else wanted to do it, I would be happy to do it. And you can bet your bottom dollar that if things weren't being done properly and on time we would be out a lookin for somebody who would do it properly and on time.

Bottom line. is it worth it to everyday shooters to have a company like this or isn't it?

Blue

I was kidding, however if you look at the other side of the coin, that's $5500 in the pocket of MRC.



Blue, aren't you jumping to uneducated conclusions here? Just a little?