If you were going to arc(stick) weld a replacement handle on a mauser bolt what type of rod(# and diameter) would you use?

I wouldn't. I believe it needs to be tig welded.
Butch

if it calls for carbon steel, I'd use a 3/32 7018 and chip, pick, grind, and file any slag out of the joint after each pass, except the last one.

if mild steel can be used, I'd use a 3/32 6010, 6011, or 6012 as each can weld over slag and penetrate it cleanly; 6010 and 6011 can be run out of position so they're easier to control, especially in a confined situation like a bolt handle, 6012 has to be run flat.

MIG-ing the joint wouldn't be a bad idea, even using one of the 110 volt machines like the Miller or Hobart 130's; in fact, I think they would be ideal for this application.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I wouldn't. I believe it needs to be tig welded.
Butch

Yup....agreed...years ago I tried gas welding and after I saw the advantages in TIG I was sold immediately.

I wouldn't consider arc welding either.....maybe some here use a MIG and hope someone chimes in on that.

If all I had was a stick (arc) welder I'd send all my bolts to Jim Kobe for welding!

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I wouldn't. I believe it needs to be tig welded.
Butch

I understand that TIG is the ideal set-up. I was going to mention that in my post.....

I just ask because I have seen older references mention ARC welding bolt handles. ARC would not be nearly as good as TIG, but it would be light years ahead of gas welding. This was why I posted the question.

One of the guys here has his bolts done by a subcontractor who MIG's them, and the smith has mentioned on the board the work is of high quality.

quote:

ARC would not be nearly as good as TIG

TIG would be best, but if properly done, stick welding the joint would give the same results- it would be harder to clean up, slower due to waiting for cooling, etc, but the end is the same, the joint will be filled with metal and dressed down.

TIG is neater, easier to control, more consistent results.

DeHaas mentions electric welding on receivers, and doesn't define it any further- for all we know, he's referring to stick electrodes.

If you are seriously contemplating stick welding a bolt handle on, for the love of God, don't forget to chip the slag between passes. Perhaps you could clamp it in a tall vise and do an over head weld with some 7018. Maybe do a little "vertical up" on the facing side and bring it home with some 7024 across the top flat. Just kidding!

Seriously, you need to be able to control the arc and the heat. Use a TIG.

T.I.G. !!!! Speaking from a tradesman's point of view,(Latham's mobile welding services)M.A.G. as a poor second choice (On almost spray transfer)

They used to sell a 5% nickle rod just for that type of thing. I probably welded 50 bolt handles on, no problem. Oh, except where they come off in your hand when you try to use the rifle, or you hit a slag pocket just as you are almost done polishing. Except for that. Which is why nobody who has access to an alternative will use stick welding on guns.

P.S. Rod diameter would be 3/32" max, 1/16" if you can find them. Like the man said: 7018 will do the job. You can do it. Do your best to heat sink, and cover to protect from spatter, and as they also said get the slag out each pass. A needle scaler works good for this if you have one. Wire brush, even sandblast.

I have used a MIG welder and it worked OK, not great but it was a little easier than gas welding. I would prefer either one over stick welding.

quote:

cover to protect from spatter

One of the biggest reason not to use stick. I did one and it came out OK but, I would never do it again. Even oxy-acetelene is better.

certainly tig would be the best, and mig an "ok" second with good, clean, un-oxidized wire.
i have made some pretty delicate welds with small 7018, even used an extra, with the flux knocked off, rod, as a filler during the weld( sort of "tigging with an arc welder". it actually worked very good on some very thin mild steel. run it slightly hot and the extra rod in the puddle keeps the blow out at bay. one thing about 7018 that seems to work better than most other rods is that, if a good tight pass is made, the slag will pop off by itself clean as a whistle as it cools. they all will do it, 7018 just seems to do it the best. you can use that to know if your staying in the weld good or not. if using 3/32 rod and you take your time between passes to let things cool a bit, i don't think you'd have much more trouble with heat migration than with any other type of weld. of course, use heat shield and anti-splater spray

I've been mullling this one over since I read it at lunch. I've done a fair amount of stick welding and its got me wondering:

How do you turn the welder down enough to prevent burning through the bolt root and still strike a clean arc?

How do you strike the arc and still have room to build a quality bead?

How many passes does it make to weld on a bolt handle like this and how much extra time does it take chip and grind everything in between passes than it would to TIG it?

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:
I've been mullling this one over since I read it at lunch. I've done a fair amount of stick welding and its got me wondering:

How do you turn the welder down enough to prevent burning through the bolt root and still strike a clean arc?

How do you strike the arc and still have room to build a quality bead?

How many passes does it make to weld on a bolt handle like this and how much extra time does it take chip and grind everything in between passes than it would to TIG it?

Basically, you'd just weld a puddle in one spot, using your own "pucker factor" as to when to stop; the distances involved wouldn't allow a "bead".

Would be the same with MIG- fire a puddle in the joint and get out before damage is done.

Spatter: spray the piece down with "anti spatter", brush on the same, cover parts with something to prevent spatter sticking to the piece.

I've welded a lot of smallish things like a bolt handle, but never a bolt handle itself.

quote:

if mild steel can be used, I'd use a 3/32 6010, 6011, or 6012 as each can weld over slag and penetrate it cleanly; 6010 and 6011 can be run out of position so they're easier to control

What I mean here is the molten metal will set up faster, and be more controllable- what I don't mean is to weld vertically or overhead

...the question at the top of the thread is:

quote:

If you were going to arc(stick) weld a replacement handle on a mauser bolt what type of rod(# and diameter) would you use?

papapaul, I agree that stick welding is not the ideal way to weld bolt handles, but if you were hitting slag pockets on final polish or one fell off in your hand, it was not the fault of the process. It was just poor technique.
James

For stick welds, the cleanest rods to put down are rods for "stovepiping" (running a bead downhill)very smooth, more than strong enough composition & better for people who have difficulty telling the difference between the weld pool/metal & slag. Use the smallest wire gauge rod on offer & make sure you have dried it!

Yes, you are correct James. And, it never seems to happen with gas, tig, or forging. When it does happen with stick, you cleanup and start over, and eventually it doesn't happen as skill and technique improve. I hope you don't htink that I, Now, cannot successfully stick weld a bolt handle. Heaven forbid. But we're not talking about me. I have a tig, a mig and gas, and forging blocks. I would not willingly stick weld a bolt handle. But when I was 14 my dad helped me buy a Lincoln buzzbox 180 amp welder. (220s weren't out yet). It was the only welder on our side of town. The big kids guys down the street brought their hotrods to me to weld. I boxed lots of frames. Some people brought me bolt handles to weld. I had that welder 40 years before it finnally gave up.

well I am surprised that I have not read from you fellows ? putting a heat sink inside the bolt while welding !

if you tig, be sure to remove the clading from the filler stick .. it improves the "blue-ability" of the joint,

mig, unless bare wire, will also leave a weird spot in the bluing

flux core- - you are kidding, right?
Stick? oh my, have fun with that
gas process? it works, its hot,

Well, he didn't ask about a heat sink. Anyway, they were mostly used in the early days when oxy-acetylene gas welding, they're certainly not necessary for TIG. Actually my own main use for a bolt insert these days is for a convenient way to hold the bolt in the vise jaws.

Plus, with any carbon steel you have to be very careful about heat sinks; their retained coolth will often cause quenching, and thus unwanted hardening, of the freshly-heated steel. This is the reason for what the trade calls Post-Weld Heat-Treatment (PWHT), the practice of keeping the weldment and surrounding steel at a high temperature immediately after the completion of the weld, allowing the heat to slowly bleed off over a period of time. This wasn't such a big problem with gas welding where everything in sight got heated red, but all electric arc welding is much faster than gas and so the surrounding steel is still cool when the weld is finished and so the small area of red-hot steel is quickly cooled & thus quenched when the heat source is removed. I've heard it said that the electricity causes the hardening, but actually it's the quenching action of the cool steel around the weld.
Regards, Joe

jeffeosso,
i re-read this thread a few times to try and find it, where in this thread is flux-core mentioned, other than in your reply?
believe it or not, there are people who have enough skill/experience doing oddball/difficult welds to know that it can be done quite well with a stick welder if you are experienced enough to know how to be carefull with it.
it's maybe, actually obviously not the best way, buti t can be done. for someone who doesn't have a tig set up and doesn't mind having to maybe try it a couple times, there, there is a way to do it. a comment like your only say to me, that you don't really have allot of experience welding and maybe are not really qualified to even comment on the subject.

Way back, I did say: "Do your best to heat sink it and protect it from spatter." Flux core wire welding is more improvement on stick welding than a varation on MIG, the sheilding gas comes from the flux and not from a bottle and it leaves a slag, but it is more convenient and will readily weld thinner steel than stick.

merlinron
I was just walking down some of the available processes .. and how I have seen people TRY to weld .. as you said

quote:

certainly tig would be best

, and I fully agreed.. however, aftrer having blued behind tig, and mig, and even flux core, if you leave the clading on the wire, it won't blue properly

It was a poor attempt at humor, i guess, on my part.

I don't recall trying to blue a bolt handle after stick welding... I certainly haven't tried it.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
This is the reason for what the trade calls Post-Weld Heat-Treatment (PWHT)

Would this be the bolt handle welding trade?

I've been welding bolt handles on for over 30 years. And even though I am skilled in the use of Stick and Gas, TIG gets the job done with far less heat exposure, and thus damage, than the other methods.

I use a heat sink to not only draw the heat, but it provides a handy place to grab with the pliers so I can dunk the whole works in that bucket of cold water I keep at the base of my welding table after each pass.

No, this would be the welding and engineering trades, specifically the nuclear engineering and welding trades but the PWHT process is known and practiced by all knowledgable welders of high-carbon high-quality high-cost high-stress products. I personally wouldn't make a pimple on a GOOD welder's butt but I've been welding bolt handles and other smithing projects since the middle '60s and spent many years working in the nuclear industry around some folks who can weld things so thin you wouldn't believe it as well as some other things weighing up to 700 tons.

I started out with gas, learned to dirt-daub stick, then discovered TIG (remember Heli-Arc?) but I'm still not what anyone would call A Welder. But I hafta say that your practice of quenching your bolt handles is not something I'd ever do.

Again, that is. Been there, done that, learned my lesson, won't do it again. Took about 15 years of welding bolts for the first noticable failure to happen but it was enough to convince me not to do it again. At Trinidad I learned to give each newly-welded handle a good healthy whack with a heavy hammer as a test, that's how I found out not to quench any more.

One way to find an excellent welder is to go to the nearest nuclear power plant and ask either the Pipefitters' or Electricians' Local union hall about their best 'instrument welder'.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
One way to find an excellent welder is to go to the nearest nuclear power plant and ask either the Pipefitters' or Electricians' Local union hall about their best 'instrument welder'.

I used to belong to the pipefitters union. I've seen some of the welders they've managed to keep employed. I'll pass. But thanks anyway!

jeffeosso,
thank-you for your clarification..... there's nothing that gets my goat faster and better than a guy that is condiscending to a neophyte trying to do what he can with what he has. and i appologize if i came across a bit antagonistic, i simply meant to put the old, " there's always more than one way to skin a cat" addage first and formost, i have lived by that saying and skill and knowledge are based on errors and questions, if you know what i mean... i for one, would love to learn tig and kick my self every time i have to weld something small and difficult for passing on an oppoprtunity to take the chance and take an offer from a pipe-fitter to teach me tig during working hours... i didn't want to get caught wasting my employers money!

westpac,
yup, living in paper mill country, there's a ton of fitters around these parts...."just because you got the name, don't mean you can play the game", as they say around here.

That's why I said to go to a nuclear plant and ask about an 'instrument welder'; our local Pipefitters' Local was deemed incompetent to man the nuclear plant and so the International had to send in a bull steward to do the job, no local politics. But I can assure you that a good certified nuclear instrument welder is as good as they come. Problem is, a good one is about 1 in 100.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
One way to find an excellent welder is to go to the nearest nuclear power plant and ask either the Pipefitters' or Electricians' Local union hall about their best 'instrument welder'.

during and after lunch, try the bar

quote:

a neophyte trying to do what he can with what he has.

You have me pegged!


To be honest I am a very good with an acetylene torch. I placed third in a statewide welding competition when I was 15.

I have always farmed out my bolt handles. I have thought about gas welding a handle on, but have not done it because of the heat involved and the fact that the weld would be much weaker than any of the electric welding processes. Maybe I will give it a try.....


I want to thank everyone who posted on this thread. It makes me proud that so many people involved with this hobby are so eager to share their knowledge.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
I have thought about gas welding a handle on, but have not done it because of the heat involved and the fact that the weld would be much weaker than any of the electric welding processes. .

Not necessarily. A good oxy-acetylene gas weld is much, much stronger than a poor electric weld, regardless of which particular electric welding process was used. I still use gas welding a lot, the major drawback for me is the slag cleanup. I personally can still get a cleaner stronger weld with gas than with either MIG or stick, but IMO that's mainly due to my own lack of practice.

You can put one of my bolts in a vise and whack the gas-welded handle with a hammer and it won't bend or break; that's strong enough for me. But, as always, YMMV.
Regards, Joe