I've been thinking I've had trouble with cheap S&B brass up until today when my "no go" guage came in the mail and I slipped it in my 6.5 Swede.
It is a Forster 6.5x55 "no go" guage and says 1.7854 on it. It says in the directions that came with it that if the "no go" goes in and the bolt closes it doesn't necessarily mean that headspace is greater than SAAMI, but it is not advisable to use it for best accuracy with factory ammo. (?)
This rifle produces 1" to 1.5" groups normally with factory S&B ammo and .5" to 1" with handloads and has shot one group under .3", however my brass gets the bright ring around it on the second or third loading. I sawed a case in half and sure enough it is thin just ahead of the web.
What are my choices here?
What are the methods for repairing excessive headspace?
Thanks

there are options first you can keep shooting fire formed cases in that chamber, as long as you just neck size the cases and set the shoulder back at a minimum.
you can have the barrel set back by a gun smith.
Or you could go to a gun show and take the rifle and head space guages and surley you could fina another bolt that will head space up in your action

I'm not sure if it would be the correct book answer, but if I were in the situation, I'd set up my full length sizer to only bump the shoulder back 0.002 or so and see what that does for case life. Similar to what I have read about making some belted magnums easier on brass by letting it headspace on the case. Again, not sure if that's the right process.

Eric

First off all chambaering reamers are different!!As per some go,nogo gauges are close to the proper tolerances. Your bolt should be completley stripped when checking headspace so there is no tension on the gauge what so ever.Then insert the gauge into the chamber and put the bolt in and close the bolt real slowly or even let it fall by gravity and if it goes all the way down then your headspace is excessive. The no go gauge should have your bolt not close all the way. One just has to have the barrel turn back one full thread pitch,so your writing in the barrel will still show up as it should. You mlight try other brass as well. Any good smith should be able to do this for you without any problem. van

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Another way is to seat your bullets out ,one time only, so you have to jam the bullet into rifling. Fire form it with a slightly reduced load and it also will fire form your cases once and for ever as long as you don't over size them.

This will work, but one more detail may make it work better.

If you've got space between the shoulder of the cartridge and the shoulder of the chamber (which is why you're doing this, right?), the force of the firing pin striking the primer can actually drive the case forward in the chamber with the neck moving forward over the bullet. How much? Will it really matter? Who knows?

But if you choose a powder that is too slow for the cartridge, you can use a compressed charge so the case cannot be driven forward. The shoulder will be blown out completely without stretching the case ahead of the web and you're good to go.

It doesn't matter if you use factory ammo or reloads in a rifle with excessive headspace, case head separations WILL be the outcome. Seating a bullet to engage the rifling on the fireforming load will only insure an impending head separation. The rifle needs to be properly headspaced or you are asking for trouble.

Snellstrom-

Here's another approach.

I'll assume you also have the go gauge.

RCBS makes a little outfit called the "Precision Mic".

Its function is to measure the length of your chamber, and the distance to the lands.

You want to use the their headspace gauge.

Now... once you have the tool, understand that the headspace gauge is made of two parts. Put your go gauge in, and see how it looks on the micrometer dial. It should be right on.

If not, look where the two parts of the RCBS tool are glued together with epoxy, heat the gauge up to separate the parts, insert your go gauge, and then epoxy the two parts back together to exact go gauge dimensions.

Then...

Insert a fired case in the RCBS tool. It will tell you exactly where you stand in terms of headspace.

In general, it's agreed that you're okay anywhere in a .010 range--go, to no go, to field gauge--in the headspace department.

In the real world, with good cases--don't sue me on this!--you can get away with more, if you basically fireform--as has been previously mentioned--and then size using only a neck sizer, correctly set.

Hope this helps,

flaco

van said it best
first try another brand of brass..
then take to a pro for a setback and rechamber..

I would assume you DO have excessive headspace, especially if another brand of brass repeats the same. further investigation really will only tell you how badly it is excessive

you can always try the scotch tape on the no-go gage... measure how thick a piece of tape it, tape the rear of the no-no, very carefully trim the tape so it has NO over hangs.

put it in the chamber and GENTLY close the bolt.

if it closes, there is no way I would do anything but a setback and rechamber...

if it doesn't close , you do have excessive headspace, just that it is within the crush of that tape and +.005

most go to no-go gauges are .004 to .005, anything more than that, and you have a serious headspace condition.

the field gauge is for "outrageous" excessive headspace, but was determined would PROBABLY be safe to fire new ammo ONCE (the military doesn't reload)...more than that,well, you might get casehead seperation on the first bang of that case.

this is a SERIOUS issue and should be repaired

I have a Turkish 8mm Mauser that I picked up that does the same thing...Brass life is about 5 shots...

However, I must admit, I don't shoot it all that much, so my So.Oregon Solution is to reform the brass for it, from Range Brass that I pick up in other calibers, and then size it down and cut it to the 57mm length, and use that... so the brass isn't costing me anything...

I could have it throated out to 8mm/06 also...

If I had to do it I'd either take the suggestion of having the barrel set back one thread and rechambered, or just rechamber it to 6.5/06...

A friend whom shoots a 6.5 /06 on a Ruger action told me that 6.5 x 55 data frequently gives him 6.5 x 55 performance numbers over his chronograph.. I haven't verified it myself, but it seems as it would come close enough...with lower pressure and you could use 06 or 25/06 brass, which is more easy to come by than 6.5 x 55 brass....

good luck..
cheers
seafire

quote:

Expand your brass neck diameter to 7mm ID

Make certain your rifle will NOT accept the cases at this point.

Useing your 6.5 die, neck size to the point where your rifle just accepts the cases with some noticable force on the bolt handle.

With your die at this setting you should be able to load ammo that is satisfactorly head spaced.

What bartsche said works. This just adjusts the case to your chamber and will prevent incipient head seaparations. As long as you only shoot handloads, this methods works great. The ideal solution, of course, is to have the excessive headspace taken care of by setting the barrel back and re-chambering, a bit more expensive, however.

Just for laughs ... measure the base diameter of the S&B factory cases, the fired cases and also what your dies reduce it to on full length sizing. The 6.5x55 seems to suffer more than most from incorrectly spec'd brass. I sold a perfectly good M96 not realizing that ALL my "headspace" problems where the incorrectly dimensioned PMC brass.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:
It doesn't matter if you use factory ammo or reloads in a rifle with excessive headspace, case head separations WILL be the outcome. Seating a bullet to engage the rifling on the fireforming load will only insure an impending head separation. The rifle needs to be properly headspaced or you are asking for trouble.

There may or may not be a lot of truth in what pointblank says. In all my years of wildcatting,and there has been a lot of it, and by necessity having used this technique I've never experienced a head separation. In fact I've never had a head separation.

By error an intended 6mm-06 IMP got chambered almost .050" too deep and became a 6mm-.270 IMP. Being young and exhuberant I had resized a bounch of 06 brass to 6mm before the chambering. We set the bullets way out and fire formed and never lost a case. If you think about it that was moving brass a long way.

I was given a .308 with an AB barrel that is chambered about .020" too deep.When fireing commercial ammo, which isn't often, I get the typical top hat shaped primer. That's where the primer backs out to the bolt face followed by the case which crushes the primer cup. The point is this brass has been reloaded numerous times and still no case separations.

Can separation happen? Of course it can! Each fix to a problem rifle should be intelligently handled individually.I guess I'm just lucky. roger

Lets just do without headspace gauges,chambering reamers,and measuring micrometers,ect. Just drill a hole in the barrel,and size the brass up or down to when it fits and shoot it. I,ve never had case seperation,or gun blow up this way ever! van

quote:

It doesn't matter if you use factory ammo or reloads in a rifle with excessive headspace, case head separations WILL be the outcome. Seating a bullet to engage the rifling on the fireforming load will only insure an impending head separation. The rifle needs to be properly headspaced or you are asking for trouble.

While I agree a proper headspace is the correct way to go I have trouble seeing how if you once fireform the case and then don't moved the shoulder back when you resize how you are more likely to get separation? I guess I view that even with a within standard chamber I still view the best way to resize is to just bump not move the shoulder any more than required to allow it to chamber.

All my belted cases are set up to space on the shoulder after the first firing. The majoring of my rifles are my own wildcat with the shoulder moved forward. I neck up form a false shoulder and then fireform. On most I then just neck size.

I have formed using the bullet stuck into the lands and with a false shoulder both with COW and a bullet. They have always been a CRF so maybe that kept the cases with only the bullet stuck in the lands from moving. I have found that in my case I get a more uniform case if I use the false shoulder. Maybe the case tips less. Just a guess.

I've been loading for 30+ years I have never had a seperation. I have seen one. It was a military 5x57 with a miss-matched bolt. The guy reloaded and then resized bumping the die agains the holder. 3rd reload let go.

Resizing the brass to fit the chamber is a workaround. However if that info is not passed on then the next shooter could have a problem.

quote:

Lets just do without headspace gauges,chambering reamers,and measuring micrometers,ect. Just drill a hole in the barrel,and size the brass up or down to when it fits and shoot it. I,ve never had case seperation,or gun blow up this way ever! van

While I'm not quite that bad. In my case I have a reamer made. Drill the hole in the barrel. Head dia is important. Then fireform several cases and if I need full resizing dies I send the cases in to have custom dies made. So yep the case forms to the hole then the dies form to the case.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pointblank:
It doesn't matter if you use factory ammo or reloads in a rifle with excessive headspace, case head separations WILL be the outcome. Seating a bullet to engage the rifling on the fireforming load will only insure an impending head separation. The rifle needs to be properly headspaced or you are asking for trouble.[/QUOTE

Only head seperation I got was with the M96 in 6.5x55. In my youth and ignorance ... how was I to know that PMC brass was based on a 0.473" head size when the 6.5x55 CIP standard is 0.480"? It took 2 full-length sizings and the case seperated.
I know a few military rifle shooters shooting Carcanos, SMLEs, and Arisakas with excessive headspace that are doing fine following bartsche's method and careful sizing. Likewise the 375-08 I've started playing with has 0.010" excessive headspace ... luckily I don't have a FL sizing die for it ... which seems to be keeping me out of trouble once a 308Win case (or 243Win) is fireformed.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pointblank:
It doesn't matter if you use factory ammo or reloads in a rifle with excessive headspace, case head separations WILL be the outcome. Seating a bullet to engage the rifling on the fireforming load will only insure an impending head separation. The rifle needs to be properly headspaced or you are asking for trouble.[/QUOTE

Reloads can be prepared that fit better than factory ammo in a new rifle but you have to know how. You can alos get head separations with a rifle with good head space if you don;t know what you are doing.
Good headspace in a M-99 Savage and a Lee- Enfield guarantees nothing.

quote:

What are the methods for repairing excessive headspace?
Thanks

Repairing excessive head space is done by setting the barrel back one thread and rechambering to the correct depth again.....usually setting the chamber foreward about .045.....or there abouts.

Cost is about $150 or so.....

The "effect" of excess headspace can also be fixed simply by setting the resizing die back in the press that same amount so at least the resized (reloaded) ammo can match the chamber.

Is your "no-go" gage .006 over or .010.....if it's .010 then I'd suggest setting the barrel back.

by setting the sizing die back a bit you can have your own wildcat call it the 6.5x55HI for headspace improved

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
by setting the sizing die back a bit you can have your own wildcat call it the 6.5x55HI for headspace improved

Butchloc.....you're a sick man!!!!!

Is this a 96 swede?

The Original military headspace gauges for the Swede are longer than the ones made in America by Forster.

The Forster No-Go gauge is .001 shorter than the Swedish Go Gauge. The Swedish No-Go gauge is .0095 longer than the Forster No-Go gauge. A field gauge is still .004 shorter than the Swedish No-Go.

Read Here 96 Swede Headspace info before you get carried away and take it to a gunsmith.

Interesting but the chamber is only half of the fit. The ammo is the other half of the fit. What are the standards the ammo is made to in the us and in CIP countries?

BTW the use of the depth rod on a dial caliper is a relatively crummy measuring technique when ±.001 resolution is needed. Most folks do not know how to check the depth rod feature for accuracy and it is easily damaged.

A good start is to use Lapua brass.

flaco

I agree the depth rod is less than ideal. The biggest variable is the ammunition and the resizing dies. The american brass is based on the 30-06 case. 06 specs .471 at the expansion ring. The Swede specs .479 that leads to some initial stretching and thining in this area. Especially if you have a few thousands of "slop" in the chamber. I imagine resizing dies are pushing everything back to the same spec the American headspace gauges are based on. I personally have had no case seperation on either of my 96's using Winchester or Remington Brass and RCBS Dies. I have noticed Hornady dies work the brass substantialy less than RCBS dies, especially in the neck area. I rarely full length size.

Thanks everyone for all the info you have imparted to me. Today I took my investigation another step and re-inserted the "no-go" guage again but this time with a single layer of standard 3m scotch tape on the base of the guage and it went in but not easily and I stopped short of closing the bolt not wanting to force it and the tape was mashed and ruffled when I removed it.
I'm not sure what that tapes thickness is but it was enough to tell me that the "no-go" guage without tape "goes" just barely. Now I am on the bubble and can't decide whether to take it to my "smith" and have it set back or to neck size only and see what that does. In the past I always full length re-sized for all of my hunting rifles because in a hunting situation I never wanted the chance that a round would chamber hard or not at all if you got a bit of mud or dirt on it,just paranoid I guess and I was willing to give up extra brass life for thelooser fit. I very seldom to never shoot factory loads and if so I do it to get brass to reload so this rifle will primarily shoot my handloads.
I have the S&B once fired brass and 200 pieces of Speer un-fired new brass, if I decide to neck size I'll start with the S&B before I move onto the brand new Speer brass. In quotes below I posted my previous post showing the numbers on the "no go" guage.
Now what do you think.

quote:

I've been thinking I've had trouble with cheap S&B brass up until today when my "no go" guage came in the mail and I slipped it in my 6.5 Swede.
It is a Forster 6.5x55 "no go" guage and says 1.7854 on it. It says in the directions that came with it that if the "no go" goes in and the bolt closes it doesn't necessarily mean that headspace is greater than SAAMI, but it is not advisable to use it for best accuracy with factory ammo. (?)
This rifle produces 1" to 1.5" groups normally with factory S&B ammo and .5" to 1" with handloads and has shot one group under .3", however my brass gets the bright ring around it on the second or third loading. I sawed a case in half and sure enough it is thin just ahead of the web.

Thanks again!

Hello Snellstom,
I just measured some Hansen factory loaded ammo, new Norma brass and fired cases from both.

From a 1911 M96 Carl Gustafs fired 1.794 PPU
From a M70 Winchester fired 1.792 Norma
The M70 has very tight headspace- excessively tight in my mind
Bear in mind that the fired brass contracts a little

New Norma brass 1.788

Hansen factory ammo
(Privi Partisan aka PPU) 1.788

I have sized cases with 3 different die sets
1 is an older RCBS, 1 is a near new RCBS, 1 set is a Lee.

Cases from all 3 sizing dies chamber with a heavy drag in the M70 winchester.
Cases chamber normally in the M96.

The numbers above come from a Stoney point tool using a .350 datum diameter.

I will be glad to measure some of your new and fired brass and mail it back to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
Now I am on the bubble and can't decide whether to take it to my "smith" and have it set back or to neck size only and see what that does. In the past I always full length re-sized for all of my hunting rifles because in a hunting situation I never wanted the chance that a round would chamber hard or not at all if you got a bit of mud or dirt on it,just paranoid I guess and I was willing to give up extra brass life for thelooser fit.

There is no requirement for you to NS only. You can size with your FL sizing die, and enjoy the benefits of that method. But to ensure long case life and minimize the chance of case separation, you need to set up your FL sizing die for your specific chamber. You want a reduction of the head-shoulder dimension of fired vs. sized case to be around .001-.002. Mostly people speak of "Partial Full Length sizing" when they refer to this die setup - there are several ways to achieve this die setup, do a search and you'll see different methods described.

After PFLS your rounds should chamber with just the slightest hint of effort. I don't find this at all unsettling in a hunting situation. In the end, it depends on your die vs. chamber dimensions whether you'll get easy chambering (from the other parts of the case) after you have achieved the correct head-shoulder reduction. Fortunately, in most cases, this is not an issue.

If you start out with virgin, handloaded brass - as opposed to factory ammo - the advice Roger provided above of introducing and headspacing on a "false shoulder" is a sound one. It takes just a bit more work (1 additional die operation), but it will ensure minimal head-shoulder growth in the initial firing in your somewhat generous chamber. This will reduce the chances of case separation even further.

- mike