Shooting an F class match this morning with my 6.5x284 and after my 38th round I opened the bolt (without feeling anything abnormal, felt around for the empty case and couldn't find it but thought that it had just rolled off my shooting mat.

I looked through the scope and saw that I had shot a 10 at 1:00, wrote down my score and dropped another round in the action. I felt the round stop as I tried to close the bolt so I stopped and looked and saw this:



I closed the bolt, snapping the extractor over the rim but I couldn't pull it out. I beat the bolt open with the heel of my hand but the case stayed in the chamber (The case looked flattened on the left side due to the extractor snapping over the case). I tried banging the case out with a cleaning rod while I was at the range and later at home but it will not budge.

The shot that did this felt absolutely normal and there was no gas blow back from the blown primer.
The bullet hit in the 10", 10 ring on the 1,000 yard target
All the cases from previously fired rounds look fine, with no indications of over pressure.
The load is 47 grains of H4350 and a 142 grain SMK seated .007" off the lands. (2,860 fps)
All powder charges are individually weighed and dropped.
Once fired Lapua brass reloaded with Redding S type bushing dies with no shoulder bump.
The barrel has 142 shots through it since being put on.

I'm going to hit the case with canned air and try to chill it enough to shrink it down and try the cleaning rod again. If that doesn't work then I'll soak it with Kroil and get a length of .25" drill rod next.


Any other suggestions?

Looks like you are doing all the correct things.my guess is that the kroil + drill rod will work.
Have been there done that and got the t-shirt.

Yep; drill rod; not a cleaning rod, and smack it with a hammer. It will come out. Whilst I have never done that myself, I have removed many that others have stuck.

I just ran canned air through it until the case had frost on it and the case still won't come out with a cleaning rod and jag.

I'll swing by the scrap metal store tomorrow and pick up 30" of hardened steel rod.

Don't use just any steel rod; drill rod is hard, and smooth and won't damage your bore, and is available in sizes to fit your bore. I would not use the steel found at Lowes, etc.

If the rod well not get it out you could always tap it and pull it out with a long bolt just like you would do with a struck case in a die.

It's probably fused to the chamber - overpressured beyond the yield strength of the case. If you're confident in your scopes low temp survivability (or remove it), put the whole rig in a freezer overnight, then try to bang it out with a non-metallic rod. If that doesn't work, drill the primer pocket, insert a small cap screw from the barrel end, thread another rod onto the breech side, rotate it out with a ratchet using a wood or plastic block on the back end of the receiver.

If that doesn't work, rechamber to something bigger.

I find this post most interesting as I have just had a similar experience.

I built my now 15 year old daughter a 260 Remington about a year and half ago. The reamer specs are typical middle of the road SAAMI with a throat and lead that were like all the other 6.5's I have ever assembled. I had purchased 200 new Lapua cases at the same time the rifle was ready to test and my daughter began shooting hand loads from the start. She has shot the rifle 328 times by my count over the last year and a half. I was still working with once fired brass with a load of H-4350 that drives a 120 TTSX at approx. 2920fps depending on the temps at the range. In early November she got chance to shoot her 1st deer just after the sun had set. The buck was quartering very steeply towards us, uphill on a sharp incline. She planted the bullet perfectly. At the shot the buck crab walked a few steps backwards and sunk into the waist high sage. I suggested she reload which she was already trying to do when she said in a fit of panic "Dad I can't get the damn bolt open ".

Having never heard her utter a curse word I'm not sure what shocked me more her expletive or the fact that the bolt was indeed locked up. She quickly gave the rifle to me and I beat on the handle and knob with my open palm a couple times and finally the case sailed out of the chamber into the grass. She quickly recovered the rifle from me, cycled the bolt, engaged the safety and began walking up the ridge, rifle at the ready. I remember chuckling under my breath as I followed behind her. I wish I had looked for and saved the case but there was an awful lot going on at the moment.

The buck was stone dead so she didn't have to fire another round. She had placed the TTSX in between the neck and the on-side shoulder and we found it mushroomed perfectly lodged against the hide on the opposite side hind quarter as we broke the buck down to pack him out. Now that is stellar penetration, with the plastic tip gone and some meat and fat still stuck under the petals the bullet weighed 120grs when I later weighed it. Which is what it weighed when it left the muzzle. Later on that night at the cabin I noticed a burnt gas ring around the firing pin hole on the bolt face from a leaking primer pocket. I'm not sure if the primer left the case or stayed in the pocket when it was ejected and fortunately my daughter got nothing in her face, nor remembers feeling anything unusual such as gas.

We haven't fired anymore rounds since that evening, I have measured the case head expansion and a cross section of 20 twice fired cases and they averaged .0004, no problem there in my opinion. Non of the loads fired in this rifle or with this brass have been on the edge of the pressure envelope. She has only shot Match Kings to practice with and the Barnes TTSX bullets just before her hunt this year and last year.

I must admit I am puzzled by the whole event and will shoot all the remaining 19 hunting rounds myself with a serious set of shooting glasses, goggles and perhaps use a snorkel as well.

I may scarp the whole lot of the remaining 199 cases now. Not a good thing to have happen.

quote:

Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:
It's probably fused to the chamber - overpressured beyond the yield strength of the case. If you're confident in your scopes low temp survivability (or remove it), put the whole rig in a freezer overnight, then try to bang it out with a non-metallic rod. If that doesn't work, drill the primer pocket, insert a small cap screw from the barrel end, thread another rod onto the breech side, rotate it out with a ratchet using a wood or plastic block on the back end of the receiver.

If that doesn't work, rechamber to something bigger.

Every time that I've seen a primer blown out and a case seize it has always been due to extremely high pressure.

What baffles me is that the shot and recoil felt absolutely normal and the bullet landed within 5" of the point of aim on the 1,000 yard target. If the pressure was that far over spec it should have thrown the bullet well off target.

I can't help but think it is a problem with a particular piece of brass. If it was a heavy charge, one would expect the point of impact to be off significantly. If your load is operating close to the edge, it doesn't take much for the brass to fail but that load doesn't sound all that hot.
D'Arcy,
How much does the head expand the second time it is fired? Usually the expansion measured on the first firing is just a distortion of the head from the expansion at the pressure ring. If a case expands .0004 with each shot, it won't be too long before a primer pocket is loose and this would be too hot. Just my opinion, of course. No question the snorkel is a sensible precaution but a little awkward in the field.
When I have a rifle come in with a case stuck like the one pictured, I will first give it a thump with a cleaning rod. If it doesn't come out this way, I pull the barrel and pry the case out using two screwdrivers which are ground for the purpose. If the barrel is flat-faced and I can do so, I'll put a shellholder on the case and pry on that. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:
It's probably fused to the chamber - overpressured beyond the yield strength of the case. If you're confident in your scopes low temp survivability (or remove it), put the whole rig in a freezer overnight, then try to bang it out with a non-metallic rod. If tha't work, drill the primer pocket, insert a small cap screw from the barrel end, thread another rod onto the breech side, rotate it out with a ratchet using a wood or plastic block on the back end of the receiver.

If that doesn't work, rechamber to something bigger.

Every time that I've seen a primer blown out and a case seize it has always been due to extremely high pressure.

What baffles me is that the shot and recoil felt absolutely normal and the bullet landed within 5" of the point of aim on the 1,000 yard target. If the pressure was that far over spec it should have thrown the bullet well off target.

Given the bullets arrival more or less on target, not long or short relative to distance, chamber pressure couldn't have been out of range by much. Seems unlikely, but if the case wall thickness was somehow compromised, it's yield strength could have been exceeded at what would be considered normal pressure. Cartridge cases and barrels are basically pressure vessels and their integrity is a function of hoop stress. If that case had been loaded hot and fired and resized bunch of times, that could be a cause. Maybe do a QC check on your brass even if it's new. Guessing you're already doing that since you're working 1000 yard paper.

Maybe someone else shot that 5" hole and the overpressure slug is in Toledo somewhere.

Bill the 1st rounds with the TTSX went .0003 on an average from what I remember and added .0001 on the second load. Temps at the range were much cooler when she zeroed her point of impact for the TTSX and then shot the buck. Never had any signs of excessive pressure with this load before. Have used the same canister of 4350 and the same sleeve of 210's for the TTSX load as it shot very well from the 1st group.

I'm at a complete loss. I sometimes wonder if there are not occasional pressure spikes which go unnoticed unless it results in something like this. Could even be that a spike could occur which would not appreciably affect external ballistic performance if barrel time remained the same and pressure dropped off more after the spike. I certainly don't expect to see this sort of thing with 4350 though. It's one of the all-time reliable performers, as a rule. This is where some real ballisticians could chime in if there are any around. Regards, Bill.

I can't help with the cause, but, I use solid brass rod just under bore size to knock out stuck cases. It has good weight and won't damage your bore.

Cheers.

Frank,

May I suggest a layer or two of electrical tape, over the hardened/polished drill rod. Just a little extra insurance, against any land damage/peening.....from any possible rod flex.

Also....possibly an overweight(less internal volume)case?? Yeah.....very rare, but it does happen.

Hope this helps.

Kevin

It looks like your primer pocket has enlarged to the point that some gas was vented but the back pressure held the case against the bolt face tight enough to seal the majority of the unpleasantness. The shock of the case head expansion probably upset the extractor and lifted it out of the rim and stuck it in the open position which would explains the easy initial bolt lift.

If it was a brand new piece of brass which had never been loaded before the simple explanation could be a soft case head. If it had been loaded and fired once with no problem, then that would rule out the soft head theory.

With that out of the way there is one explanation. Too much pressure. This is generally caused by one of four things. An obstruction in the bore which can probably be ruled out because you were on target. Too much powder weight. Too much bullet weight or the wrong kind of powder.

I have seen many rifles which oddly enough, would shoot half inch groups with three totally different pieces of ammunition. It does happen. About 6 to 12 times a year I have customers with this same problem coming to me for an explanation that will in some way ease their fears and curiosity by slipping on my magic decoder ring and telling them what went wrong.

I generally give them the waggy finger and the one eyed squint and tell them: "Well, if you hadn't destroyed the evidence by shooting it, I probably could have told you." If a close fitting cleaning rod won't knock it out then I would follow Billys suggestion and pull the barrel. Then I would drill the primer pocket and suck the case out with a stuck case remover made for pulling stuck cases out of dies. In the passed I've pulled dozens that way. Well, Now I would blow it out with my grease gun. But you don't have one of those so the stuck case puller is the logical and least destructive method. Dropping iron down a good barrel and beating on it is not my idea of a good time!

Thanks guys,

This was once fired brass.

I'm going to buy a 1/4" brass rod and 1/4" drill steel also. I'll see if I can't get it out with the brass rod first.

I'm going to take a piece of 1/2" Teflon scrap and make a muzzle protector, cut the rod so that I have 1" sticking out of the Teflon and then whack it with a hammer.

I'll let you know if it works.

Don't be surprised that higher pressure rounds don't land too far from the group; ever heard of the "self compensating" theory? British 303s were known to put rounds with varying pressures and velocities into the same group, at long range; as the rifle reacted differently to each shot.
Most of these I see are from using the wrong powder; not saying this case is. I would not expect 4350 to do this with a full case of powder. H4350, I don't know about.

Compensation worked with Lee Enfields but not so much with anything else. It was actually the lack of rigidity which was responsible for compensation. A good long range Lee Enfield shoots terrible at 200 yards if ammo is variable.
A good "F" class rifle is, generally speaking, a pretty rigid set-up and tends to launch bullets in the direction in which it is pointed.
As long as velocities are similar and shooter input is consistent (trigger pull, follow-through), point of impact should be close; even with varying barrel times. This is why I theorized about a spike which occurs early in the bullet's trip through the barrel but which yields a similar velocity. I freely admit, I don't KNOW; I'm only guessing. Regards, Bill

quote:

The load is 47 grains of H4350 and a 142 grain SMK seated .007" off the lands. (2,860 fps)

Another possibility - you're already very close to the lands, if bullet was seated too long and firmly into the lands and/or some crazy crimp, that may have caused a transient pressure spike. A defective bullet jacket which causes the projectile to over or under obturate may also cause a spike.

My method of removing a case stuck in the chamber is dropping a 1/4" brass gas welding rod down the barrel. I have yet to need to pound it to get one out, but sometimes need to drop the rod several times to get it to budge.

If all else fails it is simple enough to get a piece of say 5/16' steel rod, counter drill a hole in one end, silver solder in a drill so you can then reach down with your entension drill and drill out the primer pocket. Using 1/4" socket extensions and a socket that will hold a 1/4" BSW tap reach down and thread the head of the case (or silver solder your tap into the same rod as was used to make the drill extension).

Purchase a length of 1/4" threaded rod, screw into case head, use a piece of small angle or flat steel holed to slip over the threaded rod and pack against the rear of the action then wind on a 1/4" nut and that stuck old case will just pull straight out with no damage to anything.

No need to pull the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
If all else fails it is simple enough to get a piece of say 5/16' steel rod, counter drill a hole in one end, silver solder in a drill so you can then reach down with your entension drill and drill out the primer pocket. Using 1/4" socket extensions and a socket that will hold a 1/4" BSW tap reach down and thread the head of the case (or silver solder your tap into the same rod as was used to make the drill extension).

Purchase a length of 1/4" threaded rod, screw into case head, use a piece of small angle or flat steel holed to slip over the threaded rod and pack against the rear of the action then wind on a 1/4" nut and that stuck old case will just pull straight out with no damage to anything.

No need to pull the barrel.

That's what I said only a lot shorter

It is going to pop right out; I predict. Like with every other activity, you can't do it without a stiff rod.

I'm home but all I could get is the 1/4" brass rod. None of the metal sellers had hardened 1/4" steel rod in stock and I wasn't going to risk cheap steel inside my bore.

I can't do anything yet because I have the 2 year old grandson and the 1 1/2" year old twin grandkids playing in my gun room right now.

quote:

2 year old grandson and the 1 1/2" year old twin grandkids

Get em trained up early.

I got it out.

I put the brass rod in and had to jiggle it to get it in the case mouth. I used a couple Teflon washers to protect the crown and put a 2x4 on the garage floor under the rear bridge.

Just tapping it with the hammer did nothing, it took a fairly hard whack to unseat the case.

The case looked it grabbed about 3/8" of an inch above the web. I looked at it and then set it down to put the tools away and now I can't find the damn thing.

I looked in the chamber using a high intensity light and couldn't see anything out of the ordinary, no scratches, etc.




Thanks for the help guys.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
If all else fails it is simple enough to get a piece of say 5/16' steel rod, counter drill a hole in one end, silver solder in a drill so you can then reach down with your entension drill and drill out the primer pocket. Using 1/4" socket extensions and a socket that will hold a 1/4" BSW tap reach down and thread the head of the case (or silver solder your tap into the same rod as was used to make the drill extension).

Purchase a length of 1/4" threaded rod, screw into case head, use a piece of small angle or flat steel holed to slip over the threaded rod and pack against the rear of the action then wind on a 1/4" nut and that stuck old case will just pull straight out with no damage to anything.

No need to pull the barrel.

That's what I said only a lot shorter

Yes you did but mine is "how to pull stuck cases for dummies"

Just kidding, no dummies here but just giving a few hints of easily acquired bits required to make up a stuck case in chamber puller.

Case solved now anyway so all good in the end.

quote:

Yes you did but mine is "how to pull stuck cases for dummies"

Considering I am a old farm boy we figure things out for our selves. But a lot have not been raised on a farm.

Of course a true farmer would have used baling wire some how.

I'm going to bring a borescope home from work today and get a good look in the chamber.

Good job; I knew it would come out; they aren't fused to the steel unless you see melted brass. I only see some gas putting on the rear of the barrel; no harm there. And your bore won't be hurt unless you had an obstruction in it.

The chamber looks good. I thought that I saw some roughness at first but when I cleaned the chamber with Wipeout it cleaned right up. It must have been some brass smears.

I couldn't get the borescope to save pictures though, it's a $36,000 Olympus borescope that I just bought and the controls/software is different from the older ones. My guys don't let me play with all the cool toys in the shop.

i have this on order --- for 16 bucks, if its junk, it doesnt hurt

cheap bore scope

http://www.gearbest.com/micros...scope/pp_229387.html

says 5.5mm diameter -- but it can then look into most any chamber

I didn't know that that kind of thing was for sale. I'll have to buy one. The cheapest one that we buy for work is the Olympus that I used above.

Thanks for the tip Jeff, I just ordered a shorter one, 1.5 M here; http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ...i_detailpage_o00_s00

$18.99 delivered

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i have this on order --- for 16 bucks, if its junk, it doesnt hurt

cheap bore scope

http://www.gearbest.com/micros...scope/pp_229387.html

says 5.5mm diameter -- but it can then look into most any chamber

Sounds good. let us know how it performs. If it doesn't work for that, well, some cruder soul will soon offer a suggestion.

Check your cases. I blew up an M1A with an over long 7.62 case. I had a good habit of trimming cases, I thought! Make sure your cases are trimmed to the correct length. When a case is too long it jams into the lands and crimps the bullet. Pressures go up dramatically when that happens.

D'arcy,
Some folks tell me .0005 is max case expansion and the loads are too hot, the say .0002 is Ok in most instances.

I would think .0004 is OK unless combined with extractor marks, higher than normal velocity, a crack as opposed to a boom, sticky bolt..

But I would cut back two grs. and see what happens, then take it over to Jack Bs and say "hey Jack crank off a couple of these and tell me how it shoots!" or "wanna shoot my new gun"

Once while shooting my Taurus in 40 S&W, I had a complete case head separation. When I fired the cartridge, it felt no different to any of the other loads I'd been shooting that day. The only indication was the next round wouldn't feed...

...imagine my surprise when I took the gun apart and looked at the chamber end of the barrel, to see half a brass case lodged in the chamber. Fortunately, I managed to push the case out with a cleaning rod quite freely, then went straight back to shooting, no damage to the gun whatsoever.

Ray
I all due respect there is no f-king way on earth that you are getting the velocities that you quote weekly and stay anywhere close to .0002 expansion.

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
Ray
I all due respect there is no f-king way on earth that you are getting the velocities that you quote weekly and stay anywhere close to .0002 expansion.

Typo, he meant .002 or .02, it's all the same on account of special chamber design and fluted bolt handle and ...