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| one of us |
Which 98 mauser is strongest, nicest? Czech, Argintine, or what ever? Does it matter? I have a yugo 8mm in the closet. Nice bore and it looks plenty strong but the action looks a little rough. Has had the crest ground off. | ||
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| one of us |
Oddball, I've recently done a bit of research on this myself -- what I found is that the Czech VZ-24 is supposed to be one of the best of the 98's in terms of workmanship and heat treating. Yugo 98's, like the M-48/M-48A, are also supposed to be pretty good in these areas, but the 48's and (I think) all Yugo 24's are intermediate length actions -- won't fit in a pre-inlet standard 98 stock. ANY early 98's, including the German models and especially the Argentinian 1909's, Brazilian 1908's, etc. are alleged to be inconsistent in heat treating -- I read a gunsmith's opinion (don't remember which forum, I think not here) that South American Mausers, even contract ones made in Germany, had some of the softest receivers he had ever seen, and SHOULD NOT be chambered for modern magnums without re-heat treating. Another Mauser to approach with caution is the "last ditch" end of WW-II German 98, which is said to be of inferior steel and heat treating. How you identify late German models, I am not sure!
I stuck with the VZ-24 for my current project; in the future, I plan to build a smaller caliber on an Argentine, maybe a 7x57mm. Good luck, | |||
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I think the Argentine is probably the nicest for a sporter because of that nifty hinged floorplate on the triggerguard. But you can buy the triggerguard seperately from JLD Enterprises ( http://www.jldenter.com ) for $29 if you can't find a complete action. It's anyones guess as to the strongest, they've all been through alot of history, so each example will have it's on unique qualities. There are (at least) 2 Yugos, a short (intermediate) one and a standard 98 rework. They'd both be suitable for a sporter, but the smaller one won't have the parts availability of the larger one, nor will it fit the larger cartridges like the longer action. Good luck! | |||
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| One of Us |
As I understand it, the machining on the 1909 Argentine is nice, but it is WWI technology steel (soft) so it needs to be re-heat treated before building up for a modern high pressure cartridge. | |||
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| one of us |
Argentines are the best and that horse hockey was started by a Texas gun writer who hardness tested all the Mausers and found the metal soft..The dope tested them on the outside...1909's are hardened on the inside and where it counts...Hell, many of them were made by Oberndorf...There as good an action as you can get.....end of story. The Banner Mausers are good and the Chilean M-35 are wonderfull...The FN's (they are not 98's) but they are good for 06 lenth cartridges... This one should bring J. Belk out of the woodwork, He is a died in the wood Mauser man and one if not the best metal smith in the modern world.... ------------------ | |||
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I have one of the M48 Yugo's and find it to be of very high quality, though it IS (Clintonian emphasis)(was) in unissued condition. With good Sierra's and carefull handloads it is capable of suprising accuracy, groups yesterday of .25", .27", .55" and .67", all 3 shot groups at 100 yds in moderate wind. The consistancy that it has displayed since I have had it speaks well for its workmanship. Iron sights groups usally came in at a boringly consistant 1 1/4". | |||
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In the late seventies there were brought in some cases of 25 rifles each which had been found in Brazil. Some were 1908 DWMs and the others were 1935 Oberndorf Mauserwerkes. These were new rifles complete with bayonets and test targets. Caliber was 7x57. Of the two I preferred the 1935 but would be happy with either. We sold them for around 200.00 and they are now going for usually about 400.00. I built rifles in numerous calibers on both actions and consider both to be satisfactory for most anything. Regards, Bill. | |||
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Gary, They don't need to be heat treated thats one of thoes myths that won't go away. The heat treatment ruins them in my opinnion...1909's are soft on the outside and hard inside where it counts..This is the very reason a Mauser cannot be blown up...They will puff up but never fracture and send particles of steel flying around...The same can be said for the VZ-24, but again it does not need to be heat treated..take a 3 corner file and hit the inside of a 1909 or VZ24, you cannot touch it...Mausers are designed that way... Jack Belk, last years president of the Custom Gun Guild tells me John Wooters tested a bunch of Mausers and published his findings and started this false information and most that read it spread the word...The guy acytually tested the outside of the Mausers and of course only the FN's past his muster, Now thats great they come apart like a hand granade when they go....Keep in mind were talking about Oberndorfs for goodness sakes, thats who made most of the 1909's and Brno made the VZ 24's !!!!!! ------------------ | |||
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| <Gary Rihn> |
Ray- I've seen your posts long enough to trust you... This action is now slated to become a 338-06. I don't see that as being obnoxiously high pressure, so I guess I need to get started! | ||
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| <John Romanowski> |
quote: Sorry Dude! your so wrong! just log on the Yahoo groups gunsmith list and ask Agincourt..He's the list's unofficial mauser killer. His web page has pics of the mauser that he blew-up. If you haven't blown one up, you havent tried hard enough!! http://www.aros.net/~agincour/receiver.html ------------------ [This message has been edited by John Romanowski (edited 06-04-2001).] | ||
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John, What round was he using? It looked like the bullet was bigger than the bore and it riveted itself into the rifling and throat. It also looks like the case head or web let loose in the picture that you can look at the internal shoulder. Did this guy blow this up on purpose? What are the details? I would guess that darn near anything will blow up using the wrong rounds. I saw something similar when, if memory serves me, a guy accidently fired a 7mag in a 270 weatherby. | |||
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| <Gary Rihn> |
quote: That goes without saying. If you "try hard enough", you can destroy anything. That isn't the point. It also "ain't none too smart". | ||
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| <Scott H> |
John, Ray is correct in his statements about heat treating Mausers. The photos actually support Ray' comments. If you closely examine them, you will see a very ductile fracture at the reciever ring. Had this reciever been re-heat treated, there probably wouldn't have been many pieces left for the photo session. Scott | ||
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| <stans> |
In looking at the photos I noticed the bolt was also destroyed. I am thinking this failure was probably due to the wrong caliber cartridge being chambered and fired, excessive overload in a handload, wrong diameter bullet, a very rusty barrel, or an obstruction in the barrel. | ||
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To All, Jack Belk posted a most enlightening post on HA or here someplace, in reference to Mauser actions ( 1909 ) and the ills of heat treating...Everyone should read it.... ------------------ | |||
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| <John Romanowski> |
quote: I belive that it was a standard round i.e. correct for the chamber and hot a 'hot' load. Definately not on purpose as he was holding it at the time. I've asked him to re-tell the story so, may be I'll post it or he will himself. Agincourt sends The story goes thusly. December 26 1999 I was shooting and testing rifles. The .22-250 was a winchester heavy varmint barrel, the action was a CZ-22, The rounds were standard 55 grain vmax projectiles. Load was to 3400 FPS. First round in the chamber, loaded fine into the chamber. There were no sights on the weapon but a bridge receiver base for a scope. THe ensuing explosion of god knows what burst the receiver open, even with Fragments were minor, a piece of brass, some hot particles of powder were I took the piece apart and found fragments of the shell casing. Why it happened I don't know. The barrel is still usable and I've shot it My guess andits a guess only is tha the receiver had a hidden fracture and So there you have it, and my ears are still ringing. hooo orah. end. ------------------ [This message has been edited by John Romanowski (edited 06-04-2001).] | ||
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| <John Romanowski> |
quote: Yes! the Mauser's strenth is in its design. If you look at the 1903 Springfield the first one's were too brittle and would blow-up using standard .30-06 rounds (Hatcher's Notebook). To ussume that any rifle is safe with out carefull review and that a failure will occur only with overloads is ignorant. The mauser shown worked as planned. the metal streched to its elastic limit, vented the gasses away from the shooter and was ductile and not brittle. ------------------ | ||
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Agincourt or John, Was the rifle ever fired in original condition and in your presence? If so was there anything that may have given you any indication of the impending doom? I have a beautiful 09 argentine and I want to find out all I can before spending a dime on re barreling. I am also glad the shooter managed to keep all of his fingers and toes. | |||
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Ray: I may be wrong, but are you sure about your heat-treat facts on Mausers? I have always heard that Mausers are case hardened, so they have a soft core and a hard exterior. Either way, I know from the reading I have done on metallurgy that you are correct about the failure mode inherent in the design. The case hardening prevents wear on bearing surfaces such as bolt raceways, while the softer core yields in a ductile rather than a brittle manner. As far as I know, there are basically two schools of thought on action hardening. 1) The hard exterior and the soft core as in the Mauser, used because it is less critical from the steel quality standpoint. 2) Uniform hardness throughout. The second is what is used by many (most?) of the modern manufacturers because ultimate action strength is higher, but requires much higher standards of quality in steel and heat-treatment to strike a happy medium between hardness and ductility. Also, when a uniformly treated action lets go, it does so in a more spectacular fashion; I suspect mostly due to higher ultimate pressures at failure. | |||
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| <PK> |
Try M98 by BRNO! I have one in 7x64 and it shots perfect. You will be happy owner like me! | ||
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| <Bill Tompkins> |
Loud-n-Boomer, You are correct in regards to the Mauser heat treat. I think Ray just got it backwards as we are all prone to do occasionally. The case hardening takes care of the outside surfaces and leaves the inside slightly malleable. Bill | ||
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| <seven17> |
I could be wrong here but when I first read Rays comment on "hard on the inside", I was thinking INSIDE as in the internal lug surfaces and raceway. This is the more critical area where the bolt lugs push against. The core of the receiver would still of course be softer than the surface at any given point but testing it, lets say, on the outside of the receiver ring may show up softer than inside (ie. the lug area). Not trying to put words in mouths but that meaning would still make sense in this conversation. Hope that helps. By the way, yes, the 1935 Oberndorfs are awesome actions! | ||
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seven 17 interpeted my post correctly.... I'll illucidate, as Capstick used to say, Many Mauser actions are case hardened all over such as mil. FN's for instance, but some such as the 1909 Argintine are "hardened on the inside and soft on the outside" MEANING hardened internal lug surfaces and racewaysf, where its needed and soft on the outside surface of the ring, where one drills and taps for scope bases... Sorry for the lack of explaination on my part. ------------------ | |||
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Back in the early seventies (fresh out of the service and in search of more raw velocity) we blew up a pre 64 Winchester with one of my modified 30-06 compressed triplex loads. May be we overdid the unique. I still have the post 64 model 70 that also succumbed to another of my max reloading attempts as well as the Ruger .30 cal. carbine pistols with cylinder rebored to accept our shortened version of a .30 Remington. The point is none of these "safe " weapons survived my experiments. Maybe I should have heat treated them. The Model 98 Mauser should handle the 338-06. The chamber pressure should be around 50 or 52,000 CUPs. The 30-06 produces around 57,000 CUPs. The Mauser is indeed case hardened and the process is special and somewhat of an art. ------------------ | |||
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Here is a question: I have a gorgeous M1909 Argentine action that I bought from Springfield Armory 10 years ago. Stupidly I took apart a perfectly fine Argentine just for this action. It has slight setback in the lug spaces where it would be locked upon firing. Is this from metal compression, wear (looked brand new) or from when the rifle was proofed with those 3x proof loads Mauser used? Since the action has been case hardened, if the these are reground, will I grind off the hardest part of the steel and then need to re-heat treat? | |||
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| <stans> |
Depends on how thick the case hardening is and how much metal needs to be removed. If all the case hardening is removed, then re-heat treating will be required, otherwise, the bolt lugs will quickly embed themselves into the bolt lug bearing surface. [This message has been edited by stans (edited 06-08-2001).] | ||
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Ok here's how weak Argentine 09 actions are- My gunsmith sent a 280improved to the Birmingham proof house together with once fired cases and published load data in a maunual. They made up some PROOF cases and fired one of them. They rang him up and said there was a problem. The bolt handle had sheared when they hammered it open with a mallet. The rifle had failed due to excessive headspace. He got the rifle back complete with a case with no base and a certificate saying '30-06 rifle failed due to excessive headspace' He rang them up, they had indeed fired a 30-06 PROOF load in a 280improved. The bullet did exit the barrel, the only damage was that the lugs were set back. Judge for yourself how weak this is. This is 100% true, my gunsmith does not lie. Oh and the excuse 'the wind must have turned the pages of the manual' He now sends his rifles to the London proof house. | |||
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| <stans> |
Yep, that'll do it every time! | ||
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| one of us |
You mean I should quit shooting 30-06 AP in my 270? | |||
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