I've recently done a bit of research on this myself -- what I found is that the Czech VZ-24 is supposed to be one of the best of the 98's in terms of workmanship and heat treating. Yugo 98's, like the M-48/M-48A, are also supposed to be pretty good in these areas, but the 48's and (I think) all Yugo 24's are intermediate length actions -- won't fit in a pre-inlet standard 98 stock.
ANY early 98's, including the German models and especially the Argentinian 1909's, Brazilian 1908's, etc. are alleged to be inconsistent in heat treating -- I read a gunsmith's opinion (don't remember which forum, I think not here) that South American Mausers, even contract ones made in Germany, had some of the softest receivers he had ever seen, and SHOULD NOT be chambered for modern magnums without re-heat treating. Another Mauser to approach with caution is the "last ditch" end of WW-II German 98, which is said to be of inferior steel and heat treating. How you identify late German models, I am not sure!
Take the above for what it is, information gleaned from many sources, some not possible to verify.
I stuck with the VZ-24 for my current project; in the future, I plan to build a smaller caliber on an Argentine, maybe a 7x57mm.
Good luck,
Todd
It's anyones guess as to the strongest, they've all been through alot of history, so each example will have it's on unique qualities.
There are (at least) 2 Yugos, a short (intermediate) one and a standard 98 rework. They'd both be suitable for a sporter, but the smaller one won't have the parts availability of the larger one, nor will it fit the larger cartridges like the longer action.
Good luck!
The Banner Mausers are good and the Chilean M-35 are wonderfull...The FN's (they are not 98's) but they are good for 06 lenth cartridges...
This one should bring J. Belk out of the woodwork, He is a died in the wood Mauser man and one if not the best metal smith in the modern world....
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Ray Atkinson
quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
As I understand it, the machining on the 1909 Argentine is nice, but it is WWI technology steel (soft) so it needs to be re-heat treated before building up for a modern high pressure cartridge.
Any suggestions on a good place to get one heat-treated?
Jack Belk, last years president of the Custom Gun Guild tells me John Wooters tested a bunch of Mausers and published his findings and started this false information and most that read it spread the word...The guy acytually tested the outside of the Mausers and of course only the FN's past his muster, Now thats great they come apart like a hand granade when they go....Keep in mind were talking about Oberndorfs for goodness sakes, thats who made most of the 1909's and Brno made the VZ 24's !!!!!!
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Ray Atkinson
I've seen your posts long enough to trust you...
This action is now slated to become a 338-06. I don't see that as being obnoxiously high pressure, so I guess I need to get started!
quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
..This is the very reason a Mauser cannot be blown up...They will puff up but never fracture and send particles of steel flying around...
Sorry Dude! your so wrong! just log on the Yahoo groups gunsmith list and ask Agincourt..He's the list's unofficial mauser killer. His web page has pics of the mauser that he blew-up. If you haven't blown one up, you havent tried hard enough!!
http://www.aros.net/~agincour/receiver.html
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John Romanowski
Northern Arizona Armory
Home of the 'Poor Man's Magnum'
[This message has been edited by John Romanowski (edited 06-04-2001).]
quote:
Originally posted by John Romanowski:
If you haven't blown one up, you havent tried hard enough!!
That goes without saying. If you "try hard enough", you can destroy anything. That isn't the point. It also "ain't none too smart".
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Ray Atkinson
quote:
Originally posted by Carnivore:
John, What round was he using? Did this guy blow this up on purpose? What are the details?
I belive that it was a standard round i.e. correct for the chamber and hot a 'hot' load. Definately not on purpose as he was holding it at the time. I've asked him to re-tell the story so, may be I'll post it or he will himself.
Agincourt sends
The story goes thusly.
December 26 1999
I was shooting and testing rifles.
The .22-250 was a winchester heavy varmint barrel, the action was a CZ-22,
one of the Turkish imports, good metal (I thought)
The rounds were standard 55 grain vmax projectiles. Load was to 3400 FPS.
First round in the chamber, loaded fine into the chamber.
There were no sights on the weapon but a bridge receiver base for a scope.
THe ensuing explosion of god knows what burst the receiver open, even with
ear plugs and hearing protector headset the noise was unbelievable. I had
a glimpse of the scope base going away, and remarkably held the weapon.
Fragments were minor, a piece of brass, some hot particles of powder were
embedded in my forehead.
I took the piece apart and found fragments of the shell casing.
Why it happened I don't know. The barrel is still usable and I've shot it
on another receiver.
My guess andits a guess only is tha the receiver had a hidden fracture and
just gave way.
So there you have it, and my ears are still ringing.
hooo orah.
end.
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John Romanowski
Northern Arizona Armory
Home of the 'Poor Man's Magnum'
[This message has been edited by John Romanowski (edited 06-04-2001).]
quote:
Originally posted by Scott H:
John,
Ray is correct in his statements about heat treating Mausers. The photos actually support Ray' comments.
Scott
Yes! the Mauser's strenth is in its design. If you look at the 1903 Springfield the first one's were too brittle and would blow-up using standard .30-06 rounds (Hatcher's Notebook). To ussume that any rifle is safe with out carefull review and that a failure will occur only with overloads is ignorant.
The mauser shown worked as planned. the metal streched to its elastic limit, vented the gasses away from the shooter and was ductile and not brittle.
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John Romanowski
Northern Arizona Armory
Home of the 'Poor Man's Magnum'
I may be wrong, but are you sure about your heat-treat facts on Mausers? I have always heard that Mausers are case hardened, so they have a soft core and a hard exterior. Either way, I know from the reading I have done on metallurgy that you are correct about the failure mode inherent in the design. The case hardening prevents wear on bearing surfaces such as bolt raceways, while the softer core yields in a ductile rather than a brittle manner. As far as I know, there are basically two schools of thought on action hardening.
1) The hard exterior and the soft core as in the Mauser, used because it is less critical from the steel quality standpoint.
2) Uniform hardness throughout.
The second is what is used by many (most?) of the modern manufacturers because ultimate action strength is higher, but requires much higher standards of quality in steel and heat-treatment to strike a happy medium between hardness and ductility. Also, when a uniformly treated action lets go, it does so in a more spectacular fashion; I suspect mostly due to higher ultimate pressures at failure.
I'll illucidate, as Capstick used to say, Many Mauser actions are case hardened all over such as mil. FN's for instance, but some such as the 1909 Argintine are "hardened on the inside and soft on the outside" MEANING hardened internal lug surfaces and racewaysf, where its needed and soft on the outside surface of the ring, where one drills and taps for scope bases...
Sorry for the lack of explaination on my part.
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Ray Atkinson
The Model 98 Mauser should handle the 338-06. The chamber pressure should be around 50 or 52,000 CUPs. The 30-06 produces around 57,000 CUPs.
The Mauser is indeed case hardened and the process is special and somewhat of an art.
Unless the action has been in a fire or been welded back together, treatment of the metal should not be required. But, it is ultimately your decision.
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"If you can keep your head about you when all others are loosing theirs and blaiming it on you..."
[This message has been edited by stans (edited 06-08-2001).]
My gunsmith sent a 280improved to the Birmingham proof house together with once fired cases and published load data in a maunual. They made up some PROOF cases and fired one of them.
They rang him up and said there was a problem. The bolt handle had sheared when they hammered it open with a mallet. The rifle had failed due to excessive headspace.
He got the rifle back complete with a case with no base and a certificate saying '30-06 rifle failed due to excessive headspace'
He rang them up, they had indeed fired a 30-06 PROOF load in a 280improved. The bullet did exit the barrel, the only damage was that the lugs were set back.
Judge for yourself how weak this is. This is 100% true, my gunsmith does not lie.
Oh and the excuse 'the wind must have turned the pages of the manual' He now sends his rifles to the London proof house.