I was thinking about posting on an existing thread, but then thought it would be better to start a new one.

This isn't meant to denegrate any of the members here, but I'd say in my involvment on various hunting/shooting forums over the past 10 odd years, I've seen a few net smiths rise, and most of them have fallen.

Looking back on that, I'd say the ones that are real busy posting, seem to get behind in their work, and some end up completely getting out of the game. Those that seldom post, seem to be on the top of their game, D'Arcy Echols comes to mind, and then there are the many that aren't involved at all.

The net is a double edged sword, it provides the up and coming smith a chance to get folks posting glowing reports on good work. That leads to new work with basically no advertising cost, and the best type of advertising, actual satisfied customers. Thus the workload has the potential to dramatically increase.

The trouble is, few seem to have the business skills to manage the increased workload, and run the business.

It also points out the fact that there are very few really good gunsmiths. A goodsmith has to have both the technical skill, and the business skill. Otherwise poor business skills lead to compromises being made on the work itself, and the whole thing goes into the crapper.

I have yet to have a gunsmith deliver on time, or be timely with communication. Fortunately I have yet to be taken on any parts or cash. I've generally been happy with the work performed. If I had the money, I'd simply go with D'Arcy, or the few of his caliber.

Well, maybe...

If nothing else, if they spend a great deal of time posting online at all hours of the day, it may be a good indicator of their work ethic.

A really good 'smith is as much an artist as a mechanic and I, for one, wouldn't expect good business practices from an artist.

Far more telling is folks trying to resolve a problem via the forums. But then, that's another can of worms!

When dealing with top-notch gunsmiths, who are artists really, one must be patient and understanding.

If their work or services weren't worth it, you'd run down to Wal-Mart or wherever and just buy off the shelf.

And it's not just gunsmiths--it's any true artist--or for that matter, anyone in the personal services business.

Anyone doing that work is a one-man operation. Remember, there are a lot of "Rembrandt Academy" works out there for sale. But those by the Dutch master himself are the ones the most prized and sought after.

And if you want one by any of the true masters in any sphere, you'd best be prepared to pay dearly and wait a long time.

And it's not the 'net, either. It's success itself, whatever the impetus for it. Some can deal with it--mostly by good communication, appropriate pricing, etc.--but some others have a hard time keeping up with it.

That's just human nature. It's hard to be a good artist and a good businessman at the same time.

"No" is a hard word to say when your family's welfare depends on your saying "yes."

Edited: McCray, great minds do think alike. We nearly posted simultaneously.

A good gunsmith is a craftsman, not an artist. There is no reason for a top craftsman to have bad business practices. If someone is meticulous about their work, which is what a good craftsman is, then they can be meticulous about their business practices.

I agree that the forums aren't the place to resolve a problem, but they are a place for folks to realize that they aren't the only one having a problem with a smith.

What separates the good from the great is precisely that the former are craftsmen and the latter are artists.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
A good gunsmith is a craftsman, not an artist. There is no reason for a top craftsman to have bad business practices. If someone is meticulous about their work, which is what a good craftsman is, then they can be meticulous about their business practices.

I agree that the forums aren't the place to resolve a problem, but they are a place for folks to realize that they aren't the only one having a problem with a smith.

I agree with Paul. A good gunsmith is a CRAFTSMAN the same as a good blacksmith or a good metalsmith is.

While alot of folks call their work "art," and I am in that group also from time to time, it does not make them artists.

Has anybody here had dealings with somebody that actually sculps or paints?
A true artist?

quote:

From Paul:
A good gunsmith is a craftsman, not an artist. There is no reason for a top craftsman to have bad business practices. If someone is meticulous about their work, which is what a good craftsman is, then they can be meticulous about their business practices.

Yep.

quote:

What separates the good from the great is precisely that the former are craftsmen and the latter are artists.

MR

Nope, it makes them meticulous craftsman. Just because somebody says their work is of "artistic quality" whatever that means, doesen't make them an artist. It makes them a GREAT CRAFTSMAN.

Just because they might act like an artist, doesn't mean they are one, and they probably don't want to be one.

I know a ton of bladesmiths who make great everday knives. But I also have a mentor who works to .0005 on double action knives. His delivery time is - when its done you will get it. But when you get the knife it will be perfect. And there are others like him who have a delivery time of 2-3 years.

Guns being the same I think you must decide what you want a nice barrel and bedding job or a custom rifle with all the bells and whistles. I think the problems is in communication if I was told upfront that the wait was 2-3 years I have no reason to bitch. But on the other hand if I am told 6 months delivery should be around the 6 month mark.

Just today my wife and I recieved a set of holsters, mag carriers and belts from Lou Alessi that were quoted with a delivery time around Christmas. He let us know they would be late and why, and the wait wa worth it they are perfect and as ordered.

my 2 cents

quote:

Originally posted by Ropes:
I know a ton of bladesmiths who make great everday knives. But I also have a mentor who works to .0005 on double action knives. His delivery time is - when its done you will get it. But when you get the knife it will be perfect. And there are others like him who have a delivery time of 2-3 years.

Guns being the same I think you must decide what you want a nice barrel and bedding job or a custom rifle with all the bells and whistles. I think the problems is in communication if I was told upfront that the wait was 2-3 years I have no reason to bitch. But on the other hand if I am told 6 months delivery should be around the 6 month mark.

Just today my wife and I recieved a set of holsters, mag carriers and belts from Lou Alessi that were quoted with a delivery time around Christmas. He let us know they would be late and why, and the wait wa worth it they are perfect and as ordered.

my 2 cents

Absolutely. That is what should be done.

What's up? These guys aren't artists?

I'll have to go along with Paul H 100%. A great gunsmith is just that, a guy that has and knows how to use the tools, generally from years of doing it. If a gunsmith can be called an artist, then there are plenty of people that deserve the title. A good tool maker can do what any gunsmith does with very little training, the gunsmith that is trying to do a tool makers or model makers job is in for a long day. I am retired from the phone co. and for years have had a hobby of machine work. I have a good lethe, a bridgeport and a surface grinder in my cellar. When I decided to start doing my own barrels, I watched a machinest do two and went home and did one of my own. That barrel has shot some very good HBR targets, and continues to after 1800 rounds. I admit that there are a bunch of hacks out there, that I wouldn't let clean a gun. They make the good ones really shine, and there are some that are the top of the heap. Look in P.S. Mag. at the match results, and notice how many guys do their own work, and these are some of the most accurate rifles in the world.

I expect there is a lot of truth in Pauls words, but there are a few things about his first post that I might add a different angle to.

First of all I wouldnt consider someone like D'arcy an "Internet gunsmith" perse, in that the internet had little or nothing to do with his talent as a great gunbuilder.

Also I submit that there gunsmiths and then there are gunsmiths. The very term gunsmith lumps many skills into one steryotype. Are gunsmiths artists? No, not in the broadest sense. But gunbuilding can undoubtedly reach a state of artistry.

Engraving is most certianly an art form and some engravers are also gunsmiths, and likewise there are other phases of gunbuilding that can indeed be considered to have reached an "artistic state" if you will. For instance custom design, checkering and stockmaking. At its best stockmaking can be considered a form of sculpture. But naturally everyone who's ever built a gunstock is not a Michealangelo. I suppose the question of where the line is drawn may be in the eye of the beholder as can be readily seen in other forms of art.

No doubt an understanding of business gives one a definate edge when trying to succed in business, but I think that someone who might specialize in only one or two phases of gunbuilding instead of trying to be everything to everyone could concievably do fairly well at it without an abundance of business knowledge.

just my .02c.

In regards to Paul H's first post. I worked for D'Arcy for about a year while attending grad school at Utah State. Most days we just sat around the shop looking at gun forums and waiting for people to call that were offering free hunts.

Hopefully, everyone caught the sarcasm. Paul is exactly right. Part of the reason you don't see D'Arcy posting here all the time is because he's working. That usually means standing at a lathe or mill or doing some other glamorous work like polishing. He's a busy guy, because he's got lots of work and it's only going to get done one way; the right way. D'Arcy usually works a 12 hour day at least and there still isn't time to chat on the phone much or cruise the internet.

Not saying it can't be done, but I find it a stretch that any tool and die maker can sit down and knock out a stock from a blank, inlet it, fit it to the shooter and checker it. There is more to gunsmithing than fitting barrels and other machine work.

i think the "issue" lies on what we mean when we say gunsmiths.

Firstly, i don't qualify as a master gunsmith... or even journeyman... I can't possibly make a living at the time it takes me to make my own rifles. a decent hobbist, a couple notches above a bubba. (thought i am a Smith.. that's kinda funny)

A person that can rebarrel well, stick on some sights, and bed a stock can call themselves a smith. This person is a workman, and is the bulk of the industry. They'll order you a barrel/action/whatever, and deliver. Generally a couple weeks is a good turnaround. He'll be the guy that puts on your AB barrel from midway.
he probably does this as a side job.

Then you have a full time smith....

he's got thousands invested in tools and years of practice (training if you will) and probably started as the person above. He can turn you a barrel, blue, polish, chamber, build/fit a stock, and generally make a nice rifle. turn around time is probably months.

you then have some specilization...
you have the true master smiths...
these guys generally work in high dollar wood, barrels and actions. they take a LONG time to accomplish the work. a year is not a long time. Gentlemen that take an order and deliver a fine custom rifle fall into this catagory.

but, there's the fact that few are GREAT at all aspects, and you get stockmakers, barrelmakers, metalsmiths, engravers, bluers, and checkerors... and each of these has a large backlog.

Here's the catch.this is IN GENERAL. most of people are NOT business people. Read that as not accounting people. For example, if you receive a $5000 deposit on a custom gun, that is NOT income. That is a liability to produce work and can not be recognized as income until (loosely) that amount of work is done. But MOST people would say "hey, i MADE 5k today..." this leads to future projects paying for the lights of previous ones. And taxes will eat that person alive. They will mis-recognize income vs liabilities. They will also fail at long term business, as they will mix their personal monies with business monies, and put themselves at an accounting risk.

A quick solution to this is to buy a good biz acocunting system and pay a CPA to set it up. But the normal attitude is "i know i got 5k in, so i made 5k, and my mind is made up, and facts won't change it"

which is part of why i am not a pro!!

jeffe

Great post Jeffe, Pretty much sums it up.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by Ralphie:
In regards to Paul H's first post. I worked for D'Arcy for about a year while attending grad school at Utah State. Most days we just sat around the shop looking at gun forums and waiting for people to call that were offering free hunts.

Hopefully, everyone caught the sarcasm. Paul is exactly right. Part of the reason you don't see D'Arcy posting here all the time is because he's working. That usually means standing at a lathe or mill or doing some other glamorous work like polishing. He's a busy guy, because he's got lots of work and it's only going to get done one way; the right way. D'Arcy usually works a 12 hour day at least and there still isn't time to chat on the phone much or cruise the internet.

Thanks for posting that, it was my point that the reason D'Arcy makes so few posts, is he is a busy man. I don't consider him an internet smith, rather the example as the smith who is at the top of his game.

Jeffe also made a great post, though I'd say good smiths have 10's of thousands invested in tools.

I think there are two things that would make a world of difference for most smiths. One is learn the business skills so you don't spend money you haven't earned. If you recieve the deposits for a months worth of work, but haven't performed that work, you haven't made any money.

The second tip is learn how to run a shop efficiently. If you're spending 80% of your shop hours setting up tooling, and 20% making chips, you're loosing money. Wait until you have 10-20 barrels and actions in hand, and batch your jobs. Chamber all at once, crown all at once, polish all at once, blue all at once. Building one gun at a time, start to finish, is very ineficient.

I've long considered doing part time smith work as a second job, with hopes of going full time. I finally got smart and realized if I did contract work the same as my day job, I could charge twice the hourly rate that most smiths charge, and my capital investment is limited to a computer or two and some software.

I don't care if you are a butcher,baker or gun
maker...We all know what is right and what is
wrong.Taking money and not delivering the goods
is wrong.Just because you do a better job,and more people desire your services, should not excuse any bad business dealings.No profession should be held to different standards.We all have problems...
but I'm sure all of you live up to your obligations.

Are we talking about gunsmiths or custom gun builders there is a vast difference!!!! One is a craftsman who can repair a gun by making or replacing parts. The other creats a functional art form to perfection, if he is up to snuff that is. There are few Good gunsmiths and even fewer Good custom gunmakers.

Paul, I tend to agree with you on just about every point.

In general, great gunsmiths don't have a whole lot of time for the internet, and most of them don't really seem to enjoy it that much in the first place. In many ways, computers are sort of the anithesis of what they are about, and the two just don't gel. Great professional hunting guides and professional hunters don't mess with the internet much, either.

Great, truly great, professional riflemakers have always been few and far between, especially those who are good businessmen and reliable. If you find a great gunmaker who is also honest, reliable, and steady, you've got yourself and man to do business with on a long-term basis.

Today it seems as if we have two extremes in the custom riflemaking world. On one hand, you the simon-pure accuracy-oriented makers who don't really understand anything but holes on a piece of paper. Talk feeding, stock design, refined high-grade furniture, balance, etc., and nobody's home.

Then you have the guys who are building art rifles. What they build has to be pretty. That's the main objective. The other side of scale -- performance and durability -- often gets lost in the shuffle, or it isn't really understood in the first place. I've talke with guys of this stripe about various aspects of construction that I know to be of great importance in terms performance, and all I'd get back is a blank look. When I get back that kind of response, my business goes elsewhere...

I could tell you horror stories of my own and of others from dealing with both of these polar-opposite type gunmakers.

But the guys who can and do really build a COMPLETE rifle that you can count on and who do so by design, (not by accident) on a regular basis, and who you can count on to deliver the goods in a businesslike manner are few and very few. I suspect this will always be the case.

AD

The internet is a place where the average hunter can talk about guns. The average hunter is pretty damn irritating when he talks about guns because he is so full of half truths, misconceptions, innaccuracies etc.

The average rifle maker is allready beseiged day and night by average hunters time wasting that to want to be exposed to more would be rather odd.

We have some pleasant exceptions to both the above categories....

Some observations on this issue. My opinion only.
1. We gun/shooting/hunting enthusiasts have many more opportunities to talk/think about our hobby than to actually do it. It is our recreation, and we generally love to talk about it. Hence the popularity of sites such as AR.

2. A professional gunsmith/gunmaker (hopefully) spends much more time building/fixing guns than talking about them. Although most love what they do, it is their occupation and probably not their recreation. Hence they may not enjoy talking to you or me about guns as much as we might think. How much would you like to get a call from the office during your deer hunt?

3. If a gunsmith/gunmaker (or any craftsman) finds himself swamped with orders, his prices are too low. To continue to book orders with less and less chance of ever "catching up" is unfair to both the customer and the craftsman, and will ultimately drive off far more business than will the higher rates.

4. We as customers often don't know exactly what we want or what it should cost, and often want more than we can really afford. None of these traits endear us to the gunmaker. Personally, I don't mind putting down a deposit for a gunsmith project, because it forces me to commit to the project (and stop changing my mind). It should also commit the 'smith to a spot in his schedule.

Okay, enough rambling!

I would tend to think that a lot of internet smiths are posting simply for the very human reason of enjoying the company and interchange of ideas and conversing with fellows with like interests. After all we are social animals, and what is more satisfying that a big bull session after a great hunt or fish trip with good companions.

Granted, some may get free advertising and promotion here, good ideas, or help out, that is part of our nature too.

Some have good intent, some bad, some just naturally screw everything up. Also our lot, since the old bat in our dark distant past stared messin' around with garden snakes and eatin' apples.

Wayne

You know, what you say is for the most part right and I do not know why that is. You can have beauty, perfect function and accuracy all it takes is a love of what you are creating above the love of the dollar. I am not saying I am the best, far from it! However, I have been building custom rifles for 20 years and I tell my customers that with an accuracy load they will shoot 1/2" at a 100 yards and if they are not happy with the rifle I build them then they do not have to take it. A custom rifle should be what the customer dreamed of. A person puts many hours into thinking and dreaming of just what his custom rifle should be and it is the gun builders responsibility to make this dream come true!
Wallace Gussler gave me my love of custom rifles and though he built flintlocks and me bolt and double rifles many things are the same. As he told me a rifle should be a perfect marriage between wood and metal. All lins must be smooth and flowing with no abrupt angles the stop the flow of the eye from one end of the rifle to the other. Above all performance can never be sacrificed.
I will never forget his words and one other thing that he told me. With every gun you build you will get better, and never let a gun leave your shop that you can not say that you did your best or that you would not be proud to own! I guess from a custom gun builders perspective the best way to put it is if you love money more then what you build then go into some other business. I will try to post a picture of one of the rifles I have built and like I said I learn from each one. This rifle is based on a P-14 action and has a drop mag skeleton grip cap, picture puzzel forend itp and is chambered for the .366 DGW which is a necked down .416 Rigby. It also shoots three shots into .487" at 100 yards with Swift 300 grain bullets using 97 grains of H4831 at 2911 fps. I aint the best but I put my heart into what I build and maby, with luck I can get there!