The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Should I Blue Print my action?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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In 1982 I had a semi-custom Rem 700 put together. IIRC, the 'smith told he he blue printed the action. Now, 24 years later, it's at another 'smith's getting a new 26" Lilja barrel in 30-06 Ackley installed. Yesterday morning, the 'smith calls me and said the action was never blue printed. I asked how much more and he replys "$150.00". I tell him to go ahead and blue print it but he responds that my barrel is so thin and light (as this is a hunting rifle it is .550" at the muzzle) that it probably won't matter anyway. I went with his advice. Am I wrong? Since he waved me off the extra work, I don't feel he is trying to take me to the cleaner. I just want to get your opinions. What sort of accuracy difference might I see in a rifle intended for long range big game hunting?  | ||
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If the barrel does not tighten evenly (squarely) on the front face of the receiver ring I'd remachine the receiver face square to the thread pitch diameter to force this to happen. I've never encountered this condition and I've installed barrels on Sako, mini mauser, M-70, M-700, P-17, Mauser, and Rem M-721 and never seen this happen. IMO it's an emotional thing more than a functional/accuracy thing. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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What??? First of all, you dont gain anything by attempting to true an out of whack receiver fit to the threads. It don't work that way. A blue printed Remington will have the threads re-cut to the bolt tunnel axis. Furthermore, it is done to "increase" accuracy, not to "soothe" ones emotions. | |||
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The longer the range, the more critical the accuracy, which is VERY dependent on the precise alignment of the pieces. If you are wanting long range accuracy, it would would be to your advantage to do what you can to make the rifle as accurate as possible. Truing the receiver would be the logical place to start. | |||
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I suspect your gunsmith is an honest man, who did you a favor. As long as his skills are as good as his advice, I'd keep him if I was you. If your rifle was sufficiently out of whack as to limit its usefulness for hunting, I'm sure your would have noticed it by now. Of course if it is a rifle range Bench-Queen, that's something else entirely. Anyway, for a hunting rifle which actually goes hunting, it will likely be just tickety-pooh. Enjoy it and use the $150 toward a good hunting trip would be my choice. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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We had a thread about blueprinting, AKA squaring, an action a few months ago and no one could agree what it really meant or how to do it. One person suggested that blue prints were available on the net somewhere. This shows how diverse the practice is! I would agree that accuracy is caused by accuracy but the precision by which the sling swivels are installed have nothing to do with accuracy at the target! Further you can't improve accuracy by adding checkering, rosewood caps etc. It can't be shown from any tests I've ever read that full scale bluepring increases accuracy except the previously described test if the receiver face is not square to the thread. All other machining is for naught or if it helps it's not easily measurable. This practice can be added to molycoating bullets, barrel breakin, cryogenic treating, and a long host of other firearms snakeoil as just sillyness. | |||
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Listen to Malm, if the threads are not in line with a squared receiver face, cleaning up the face is useless. Butch | |||
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Yeah, all a guy needs to put an accurate rifle together is a few common hand tools.  | |||
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Accuracy is the end result of removing, or, reducing the inaccuracies that are present in a weapon, ammo and shooter. I'm not even going to address the sling swivel comment.
That is deep! 
Then you obviously have no experience with the topic. If you have experience, then something must have gone real bad with the job.
You're losing credibility. Anyone who would believe that "blue printing", or, truing an action is akin to "snake oil" is not in full possession of his faculties. | |||
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Sheesh, malm- That's a little harsh. Although I had considered the first of many "Best Sentence on AR" for this doozy: "I would agree that accuracy is caused by accuracy but the precision by which the sling swivels are installed have nothing to do with accuracy at the target!" Any of many unemployed English majors would be happy to tell you the first clause is a tautology. Circular reasoning. And pretty much below the middle school level. "Accuracy is caused by accuracy...."? Doh? Well knock me down. I always thought accuracy was the result of good machine work. Handloading, marksmanship, etc. Hey. It's Saturday. Most probably Duikerman was having a few beers, watching the game, took a break to check out AR. There may have been worse, but... I'd guess they're on the Political Forum. flaco | |||
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Blueprinting an action is about the same theoretically as blueprinting a car engine for racing. I've done both. Blueprinting a rifle action, unless a problem truly exists, is just not a strong value item for the average hunting rifle for the average hunter. The process won't show up without extra care in the barrel, stock, trigger, mounts, scope, etc. Now as with the car used for racing, blueprinting does provide that reduction in stresses to assist the other parts in doing their best in competition. If the rifle is used for competition as is the race car, then blueprinting is definitely worth while. If we are talking about the stoplight dragging using the local grocery-getter, then blueprinting isn't cost effective. .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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I turned 231 yesterday and I'm feeling a bit grouchy. I literally stood agape as I read those words of wisdom. Talk about your notable-quotables... | |||
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That was the original question. GSSP is looking for advise regarding "long range" hunting accuracy. Anyone who has ever taken long shots knows that it is not an easy task. It requires a skilled shooter, a well tuned load, and a gun capable of delivering the round. If he has a gunsmith who will "true" his entire action for $150.00 and do a good job at that, then it would be foolish not to have it done before fitting the new barrel. People spend a lot of money on barrels, stocks and finishes, but when it comes to preparing the action for the barrel, they skimp thinking it won't amount to any gain. That's just not the case. Especially where long range accuracy is the goal. | |||
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GRE-TAN.... $150.00 Check out the website. This is what REAL blueprinting requires. (Lots of pictures)  | |||
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Huuumm, I wonder what the current GunSmith had in mind there? 1. Perhaps the first GunSmith "did" BulePrint it, but it just isn't to the same tolerances as the current one would do it. 2. Perhaps it is so close already that any changes the current GunSmith would make really wouldn't make a difference.(See #1) 3. Perhaps the current GunSmith thinks it takes 5-shots for Long Distance Hunting and the light weight barrel will(shall we say) re-contour itself after the 3rd shot. 3a. Perhaps he thinks Big Al needs 5-shots for Long Distance Hunting. NOTE: Since Big Al has already "worn-out" one aftermarket barrel, I doubt 3a is the situation. 4. Perhaps Big Al just started this thread to "bait" duikerman in. --- duikerman is generous enough to tell all you folks he has no "First-Hand Experience" with it. What you all apparently fail to realize is he is (I'll guess) a M70 fan and of course "Accuracy" just isn't all that important to those folks, or so they say. | |||
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Hey Hot core, I really enjoyed that post as the humor was good. Thanks, and BTW I'm a howa fan not a M-70 guy! A few others have had some fun with my remarks and I'll just take them for what ever logic says. I'll make one more comment on the bluepring issue for Big Al, even though he might be baiting me or anyone, here it is: I've sold rifles new to many folks as I run a retail business for a time. I probably sold some of every brand imaginable but Remington was a popular item. Of all the rifles I've had experience with, and it's a few as I helped a lot of folks sight in and bed their rifles, The number 1 accuracy rifle is now a tie between Remington 700 (and the 788 as well) and the savage bolt actions. Possibly the savage an edge ahead now. It is/was my experience that every one of those Remington 700 rifles was capable of sub 1" groups out of the box but many required some bedding and carefully concocted handloads. In some cases I removed the bump in the stock from Remington and in some cases I left it there. In the end it was a very rare Remington 700 that didn't shoot extremely well when loads were right and the bedding suited the rifle and in a few cases it was a challenge but they all shot well. Now folks are telling you and me that these same actions need to be blueprinted to shoot decent groups. You paid for it once and now it needs it again? This is not a benchrest gun as you said it was a long range hunting rifle. It's your money so spend it as you choose but I'd just ask myself, How in Sam Hill did it shoot so well out of the box with that factory barrel and now it needs to be blueprinted to shoot well with a custom aftermarket barrel? | |||
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After having new tires installed on any of my vehicles, I won't pull it from the repair bay until everything is aligned and balanced. Having an out of whack front end or an out of balance rim isn't likely to show any potential trouble if used for short jaunts around town, but you take that vehicle out for a "long distance" trip and you will soon regret not having the alignment taken care at the start. Big Al, you may be the type of shooter who would not notice any change using a trued and balanced rifle, but for a $150.00, do you want to take the chance, especially when you are after long range peformance? Of course you don't have to have it done, but if you are contemplating having it done, then you would be wise to do it now rather than later after the barrel is in place. Whatever you decide to do, good luck! | |||
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Malm, that is very good advice. Butch | |||
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Agreed that blueprinting will help some rifles to some degree and others to a great degree. As noted in my earlier comments, I talked about competition and the AVERAGE shooter. Each will have to make the decision where they fit on a line from one to the other and on relative worth for any modification. I have all my rifles blueprinted because I'm willing to pay for that last .010 of accuracy. Do I need it in all my hunting rifles? No...but its nice to know its there. And please consider, I'm not saying that a shooter shouldn't have the most accurate rifle with suitable mods. I'm just saying that each shooter will have to evaluate which are worthwhile to him or her. .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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This has to rank as one of the dumbest statements I have ever read on the gunsmithing forum. To compare blueprinting an action that has already been blueprinted once to changing tires and wheel alignment that should be done every time new tires are installed is a total joke. Folks, if you buy this, then I have a lot of bridges for sale, and real cheap too!  | |||
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You don't read very well, or, have a full grasp of the topic do you? No one is talking about blue printing an action that has already been blue printed... | |||
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And I further pointed out that it didn't need it the first time. My reading is just fine. | |||
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Duikerman, you've got to read it all. | |||
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According to the poster it was never done, but paid a smith to do it for him on the last barrel job. I had a 722 that was straight as an arrow, last new Rem I bought was only a tho out of square. I have had to have bolts sleeved on two to get everything square. Most barrel jobs include lapping lugs and trueing the reciever face. If the gun shot fine before then put the money into the stock/bedding/trigger/glass. Depends on your accuracy expectations. All my Remingtons have shot very well off the rack. They all needed a little mesage to get them sub moa, bedding, trigger job and handloads. Mine have been rebarreled to make them a different profile or wildcat. I have had them made as straight as possible to get off on the right foot. I tend to agree with Malm on the topic Just becuse you are building a light weight rifle with a feather weight barrel does not mean it will not or can not be a tack driver. | |||
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I sent my 1909 Argentine action to one of the posters here to have a shilen barrel installed and chambered to 35 Whelen. I asked him if I should have it blueprinted and he said no, that it wasn't worth the time and money. This gun is a great shooter as I often get groups under 1" with it for five shots. Apparantly there is varying attitudes on the subject. He hasn't posted on this thread BTW. | |||
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Due to the costs and time involved, different actions receive different treatments. You're gunsmith is right. To do to a Mauser, that which is done to a Remington 700 is not cost effective. | |||
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After reading this topic, i would like to hear, excactly what you men by "bluprinting" step by step, and the theoretical benefit from every single step. Is the goal to get a rifle with concisten accuracy, that shoots sub min with all quality ammo, or is the goal to get a rifle that shoots better than 1/4 " group with that magical once in a lifetime handload. | |||
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Jorgen, this post by Don Slater is the best info about blueprinting I've ever seen. As he points out....there's a lot of ideas about what it is. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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WHAT do you mean "humor" - Pilgrim??? One of my good buddies has one of your favorites from Mossburg. It allows me to always ask, "HOWAyadoin" with it?(No humor intended!)  --- Speaking of questions, all of you folks that believe Big Al should have told this second GunSmith, "I don't care that your recommendation is to pass on this Second BluePrinting. You go on and do it ANYHOW!" Do you really think this Second Gunsmith would have the "proper attitude" about doing it since he recommended against it??? --- Even though it "looks" like I'm in complete agreement with a HOWAyadoin lover, I'll deny it ever being said.  | |||
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The truth is, unless an action exhibits a glaring defficiency, blueprinting or truing will likely have little effect in the field. In fact, the effect of subtle improvements in alignment are difficult to demonstrate even in most target venues. Generally, neither the rifles nor the cartridges for which they are chambered are capable of the accuracy needed to show this. A bolt action is a relatively simple mechanism from a functional standpoint. There are variations in design from one make to another and variations in what defficiencies are likely to exist due to manufacturing techniques and the goal of the manufacturer. When it comes to the truing and/or "blueprinting" of an action, there are variables as well. The primary one is the intended use of the rifle. Tolerances and requirements of an action to be used for a competitive benchrest rifle might be considered unworkable for a field rifle. The one thing most will agree on though is that "straight, square, and concentric" are desirable traits regardless of the intended use. I've never seen any in depth study of the effects of various flaws in an action but some are obvious. Others are not. Before going any further, we should take a closer look at the action and it's component parts. Also, clarify some of the terminology. The bolt action is comprised of a receiver, a bolt, and a trigger mechanism. A repeater will also have a magazine. The receiver's purpose is to hold the barrel (usually be means of threads in the receiver ring), to carry the bolt, to provide locking surface for the bolt (usually), and to hold the trigger. In addition, the receiver usually provides attachment for the stock. The bolt locks the cartridge into the chamber, carries the firing mechanism (striker or firing pin), and includes the extractor. The receiver and bolt share extraction duties. A cam is usually milled into the receiver bridge and the bolt has a corresponding surface (usually at the root of the handle) which, upon contact with the camming surface, provides primary extraction. Generally, the receiver is bored through and raceways are cut to allow passage of the locking lugs. The physical center of this bore is the "axis" of the bore. At the front of the receiver, the threads are cut to accept the barrel. In a perfect world, these threads are in line with and concentric to the bore axis. The face of the receiver will be perpendicular to both. So, when evrything is together, the barrel will be perfectly aligned with the bolt and receiver. The bolt face will be perpendicular to the chamber and therefor to the head of the case. The locking lugs will bear fully and equally on their seats. In the real world though, things might not be quite as they should and this is the purpose behind "blueprinting". Whether as a result of shortcomings in the set up or of warpage during heat treating, the threads may be misaligned in relation to the bore axis. The face of the receiver might not be perpendicular to the bore axis, the thread axis, or both. In addition, the locking lug seats might also not be perpendicular. These are the difficiencies the blueprinting or trueing operation is meant to correct. To accomplish this the receiver is set up so that the bore axis runs true and the threads, receiver face, and locking lug seats are re-cut so they are as they were intended to have been in the first place. With the receiver taken care of, the bolt is then set up and a trueing cut taken on the bolt face and on the locking surface of the lugs. When this is all done, barrel alignment, locking lug contact and cartridge containment is, hopefully, as close to perfect as it can be. For a target oriented rifle, this is the all important part since accuracy is the primary goal. For a hunting rifle, accuracy is also important but somewhat less so. After all, the accuracy requirement to make a good shot on a deer, even at long range, is less than that required to shoot "x's" on a Hunter BR target, for example. For the hunting rifle though, reliable function is of paramount importance. For this reason the work done on a serious field rifle might be a little different than what might be done to a serious target rifle. I have my own opinions about what is and is not critical as do all other gunsmiths. In the end, I suspect the primary advantage of blueprinting may well be phychological! If an action is reasonably close to being as it should be, it will perform as well as most can shoot. I have worked on too many rifles which, inspite of obvious flaws, had been delivering fine accuracy for years. I recall one unlimited BR rifle a friend had on which the barrel came out of the receiver at a noticable angle. In spite of this obvious flaw, this was the best rifle he had shot up to that time. Any rifle which is able to group ten shots under .2 moa can't be all bad. At the same time, I've seen BR rifles built on custom actions which were measurably perfect which didn't shoot for shit! So there you go! To the intial question, "Should GSSP have his action blue printed?", I would say, " If it functions well in all respects, then, NO!". But that's just me. While the bolt action is a simple mechanism, there are idiosyncracies within different actions which makes each one a law unto itself. The approach taken by the gunsmith will, and should, vary according to the action, the intended use and, most important, the desires of the customer. I could go into a lot more detail and even address the individual requirements of different action types but I'm not getting paid for this so I won't bore you all any further! Regards, Bill. | |||
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Excellent post. Doubtless some "gunsmith" will argue with you, however! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Has this been said here before? Thanks Bill. | |||
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I shot one this weekend that defies all claims. It was an older Rem 700 in 22-250 that was shot out so the guy bought a barrel from his neighbor that bought a new rifle to get the action and then took the barrel off. This new barrel was put on the old action in the guys garage and no formal gunsmithing was done. I shot a .350 group with it yesterday the first time that I shot it. So, you have take a lot of truing recommendations with a grain of salt I guess. | |||
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Hi Bill That was an exelent post, pretty objectiv describing some of the factors in "bluprinting" Now i would like someone to come foreward with the results of all this efford. And what is the tecnical problem not dooing it.(no interest in the term "poor accuracy") moer the reason for it. That must be something for Malm to comment after promoting "bluprinting" so heavily. | |||
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That would be an even more incredible statement if you said that you used 2 pipe wrenches to screw on the barrel! But wonders never cease. | |||
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The guy that changed it out is a BR shooter and has the tools to change barrels. | |||
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Vapo, How much did you pay Bill for this post? | |||
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Al, have you used this smith before and did he do good work... if so, go with his word. IMHO, blueprinting is a customer's choice, as it's his money. do you want the best possible accuracry, assuming everything else is right? .. if so, then do it. if you are happy with the generic answer of it shoots well enough as it is? , then don't. in the end, it's the guy paying the bill's choice. does it improve accuary? probably will it correct some out of alignment errors, should they be present? certainly is it worth the $$ to YOU? that's your call. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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