What's the best wood for a pattern stock? I can't find exactly what I want, so doing my own pattern. I've made one pattern stock before starting with a factory Husqvarna stock, believe it was pine or something similar. It wasn't walnut. Can't say it was that good to work with either. I read somewhere one guy used maple for his pattern stocks. Just looking for something inexpensive and easy to work with.

thanks!

Maple. Birch. Sycamore. I've made patterns from walnut stocks and bondo. And epoxy. Bondo is your friend.
It doesn't matter much, just don't use balsa wood. And you don't want your stylus to dig in, or break off a piece. And hold sharp details.
Fajen used to use double sized aluminum patterns. Those worked well.

I have regularly used California English walnut because it is good for the same reasons that it is for a gunstock. Mainly it works well,is stable and hold edges well for machining. I've found that most stock suppliers have dead plain, straight grain blanks they are happy to supply cheaply.
Several years ago a blank supplier was coming through my area and I asked him to bring along some plain wood, saving shipping cost.
I mainly use two piece wood and these are easy to come by but I also have plain rifle length blanks.

Low Wall Winchester pattern from English walnut with bondo cheek and wood splice in front of comb

I spray paint all of my pattern stocks brown for uniform appearance and to partly seal the grain. I also leave a small flat on the top of the comb and along the toeline to establish center lines. Note LOP marked on pattern side at butt.

Thank you!

Currently working on my 657th pattern, not including patterns done for other "makers".

SDH is correct, good plain walnut works very well. But the blank used must be very stable.

One of the men who taught me a fair bit (Geoff Slee) made several hundred patterns from solid walnut. Most of these blanks were cut by two commercial suppliers. Many of them moved after several years - the majority of them in fact. Partly this was due to how Geoff stored his patterns (there are photos online of his racks), but I believe it was mostly due to the blanks not being well seasoned in the first instance. On top of the above numbers, I put in one hell of a lot of labour into sorting most of those patterns as best I could, to the point they were mostly as good as new or better. To truly understand how epic those problems are, you'd have to walk in the same shoes.

In my earlier days stockmaking, I did the same as Geoff using the same suppliers blanks. This was before I found myself fixing Geoff's patterns. Most of the patterns moved in due course, but I'd stored them very well so I knew it was the wood used. I went to laminated walnut at first. I'd been cutting my own blanks and went to those ASAP, mainly due to the time it took to laminate blanks. If I had my time again, I would have kept using the laminated walnut - but then I'd not have observed how stable my own blanks are. It's one thing to have a blank be stable bolted onto a rifle as a stock....but hanging on a peg for eons is just asking for trouble - the material used best be tops. I knew I was in for trouble with Geoff's patterns, but like always it's only until you are up to a job to the neck that you really know what you are dealing with.

I learned to use good quality, properly seasoned heartwood blanks. I am very fussy in this regard, after the above experiences. Those troubles are now over. I've long used use my own blanks and have never had one warp, twist or bow. They are just as trustworthy as laminated walnut. Laminated walnut can make lining out the forend easier (for symmetry) if you inlet dead nuts down the centreline and the lams are all the same either side of it. Laminated birch is junk IMO, it's horrid stuff to inlet and carve cleanly. Other very stable laminated hardwoods would probably work well. Laminated blanks are more difficult to get a really true impression of what shape you are really dealing with.

Blanks can twist as well as bow. I can tell you from experience it sucks trying to un-twist a pattern!

If you bog wood patterns, bear in mind that it changes the way the blank will admit and pass moisture seasonally. Well seasoned blanks seem fine like this (I generally seal them thoroughly with a very hard floor varnish), but I've seen other folks patterns bow like crazy around such areas. My experience tells me that adding bog/putty/bondo/filler to stocks will exacerbate warpage in patterns unless the pattern material is very good and the pattern well sealed. I'm talking about sealing large areas.

I like a good hard pattern blank. My stocks are generally slender, so the more rigid the pattern the better. It's easy to bolster the forend and the grip; but excess tailstock pressure will bow the inlet area - and the forend in slender patterns. If there is any tension in the wood, it will eventually come out. A solid carbon fibre rod epoxied in the forend can help, but it won't help much if the duplicator operator is a muppet. Most slim patterns sent to me are far from rigid enough, cough on them and they move 0.010" or more. A good hard rigid pattern blank helps a lot in this. You have to be aware and constantly tip the scales in your favour.

I use tailstock pressure gauges (cost me a bomb), dial indicators and straight edges to verify I've not bowed my pattern. Follower pressure can bow the stock, particularly when steadies are not used. Most steadies won't work other than for inletting - think about that. Assumption is the jism that leads to heavily pregnant outcomes. An experienced duplicator operator can look at a machining and see various errors and know right away what caused them. Ditto patterns, most that got sent to me were far from "good to go".

My experience tells me that most people struggle to see the true shape of a wood pattern, laminated or not. Other than to seal the wood, colouring a subtle mid brown or blue-grey allows the shape to be seen more easily - no glue lines or natural wood variations to confuse the eye. I don't suffer from that much myself - if you are a custom stockmaker who gets confused by colour and figure your stocks will never be great. However, I sometimes spray a pattern a customer is interested in, before they handle it. I should probably do that more often, I think most people cannot see the true shape of a stock, they get distracted by the colours/figure (or any mods/bondo in a pattern).

Some duplicator operators machine stocks that are very undersized on the inlet and a lot of extra wood on the outside, I suppose so minor pattern or machining anomalies can be corrected when making out the job. I prefer a pattern that is "dead nuts" and I then machine it as faithfully as I can 1:1. I put a lot of work into patterns, it is well worth it to a customer when they realise the pattern makes their metalwork into a "try rifle".

Some of my patterns have been copied hundreds of times, with no visible wear. Some of the patterns I've made - from good hard walnut - for other duplicator owners have been shockingly damaged from excess follower pressure in very short order. Poorly guided passionate fingers are a lot like assumptions. To do fine work on a good duplicator is not easy. About like knowing your way around a Cinci Monoset.

It's interesting using very high quality pressure gauges and measuring deflection over a good many jobs. I've been sent blanks to machine from all over the place, and it's interesting to see how different suppliers blanks behave vs how they dry, season and store blanks. Deflection:Tailstock Pressure varies with density/hardness of the blank, obviously. But I've also noted many times that even heavy and tight steamed/kilned blanks deflect more easily (less tailstock pressure). So many blanks nowadays have had the guts knocked out of them for the sake of expedited production and profits. I never liked such blanks but nowadays I detest them, and this is just one reason why.

Not much point making patterns from shit material.

I'll also add the following:

When making a stock from the block (pattern or an actual custom stock), the inlet is accomplished first, and then the bulk of the wood is removed. This changes the equilibrium of stability of the wood fibres. If the blank is not stable, good luck.

When machining a stock, it can be machined oversized in stages and allowed to rest. Any dimensional changes can also be quantified, and appropriate actions taken when a job does move. Unless the operator bangs them out in one hit.

Filler used by people in patterns often contains abrasives. Some of the fillers used wear followers like crazy unless carefully coated. I harden my followers, which are also ground in the T&C grinder. They still wear eventually. I always asked people not to use such fillers, or at least coat them well - but nearly every time they ignored this request and left me to sort it, or else rip up my followers. If it happened a second time, they got ignored pretty quick. It takes time ($$$$) to make really precise matched followers.

I don't use it much, but I make my filler from low-shrinkage epoxy and walnut "flour" - very fine walnut dust trapped in my filters that is 30 microns and smaller. Because of the blanks I cut and dress, I have this material in bulk. It makes for a very slick job and the consistency is easily varied. It wears incredibly well, too. As it starts to set up it can be moulded slightly, and carved before it gets rock hard. This minimises filing and sanding dust. The fumes from the epoxy are toxic, but so are bondo fumes and much of it has filler material which is really bad for your lungs. PPE needed if you want to hunt long and hard in life.

Mr Hughes, that pattern is wonderful - so is the photo. I enjoyed your podcast with Reto B; thanks for taking the time.

Personally have no use for cookie cutter clones.but...mayhaps just use your inferior pattern product once for a good piece of walnut...then refine, glass..whatever needed to get a pattern that will last a bit?

My point about cookie cutter stocks:...I have on order a seven rifle battery from 300 Win Mag to 458 Lott.. Three different actions, some are pot belly magazines,others are not, barrel contours different....Shit...by the time I dink around with the variables I can just make a proper custom stock for each one.

I ordered a laminate from Richard’s micofit. 96% inlet and bondo did the rest. All 3 of theses stocks are based off their old classic pattern that I changed. I just altered the cheek piece on my pattern and made some small adjustments for each rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by bt8897:
I ordered a laminate from Richard’s micofit. 96% inlet and bondo did the rest. All 3 of theses stocks are based off their old classic pattern that I changed. I just altered the cheek piece on my pattern and made some small adjustments for each rifle.

First semi-inlet I did was from the same Richard's Microfit pattern. Does need work as you state.

As for ready to go patterns that are pretty nice as is, Hatcher's out of Australia has a massive selection and nice wood.

I'm no stock maker, and I couldn't hold a candle to most of the guys here, just sharing my recent experience from my point of view.

I have a local supply of hard maple. To me, maple is maple, but the supplier, who is well versed in wood, assured me I would see the difference. Well seasoned, and HARD, he promised me I would be impressed.

Not liking the typical "router" bits that are available, I had my T&C grinder make me up some custom carbide cutters to my specs. $$$$$

I ran one set of patterns, from an original stock, using a friends duplicator. My beautiful carbide cutters are noticeably dulled. The ripped through that maple wonderfully, and made a great chip, but damn was I shocked when I felt the cutting edge was dulled.

Now that they are off the duplicator and I am working through some of the details, this maple is harder than any walnut I have worked. Chisels need constant sharpening.

So, yes, I was impressed. Hard maple is well... HARD. Since I have a local supply of it, and it is cheap by comparison to walnut, unless I find some issue like the warping mentioned above, I will probably continue to use it.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Personally have no use for cookie cutter clones.but...mayhaps just use your inferior pattern product once for a good piece of walnut...then refine, glass..whatever needed to get a pattern that will last a bit?

My point about cookie cutter stocks:...I have on order a seven rifle battery from 300 Win Mag to 458 Lott.. Three different actions, some are pot belly magazines,others are not, barrel contours different....Shit...by the time I dink around with the variables I can just make a proper custom stock for each one.

I agree with Duane. But I have made pattern stock just to get everything near perfect for duplication. I don't think I have ever used a pattern more than twice without altering it substantially. I have made plenty of stocks from the blank and teach that in my Seminars. I've also made patterns from the blank to perfect the duplicated stock.
I'm a firm believer than if you cannot make a stock from the blank, you are not a stockmaker.

I've also made many long rifle stocks from Eastern sugar maple, hard as woodpecker lips as they say. Eastern red maple can also be very hard. But western Big leaf maple is soft wood although often full figured. It comes from Oregon where I used to have me shop, it sucks for gunstocks or patterns but is excellent firewood for heating the shop. To me Sugar maple is more difficult to work an less stable than walnut so not ideal for pattern making.

In the olden days each wood was considered for specific applications such as hickory for handles and oak for casks.
JMHO

wanna cheat a bit? just order/buy a take off stock that's even remotely close to what you want, attack it with rasps and bondo, be certain to sand and paint the "final" product, and duplicate that

Only white oak can be used for casks because the pores don't run completely through it and it won't leak like red oak will. That is why it is used for casks.
Bondo on an old stock is not cheating; that is customizing.
Ok, read my first post above. There is a hardness scale for wood; of course wood varies quite a bit depending on the conditions under which it was grown, so keep that in mind. Here is the hardness for woods we often use for gun stocks, and for a pattern, you want to use one on the hard end of the scale. LIKE SUGAR MAPLE.
Sure, English walnut might be fine, but why spend that much money on a pattern?
If you are only going to use a pattern a few times; it won't matter much. If you use it a lot, use a hard wood for it.
I didn't major in Forestry for nothing.
(Actually I pretty much did. Destroyed a lot of trees with tanks but that's about the extent of my Forestry career accomplishments)
Meaquite. 2345
Hickory: 1850
Hard Maple (sugar maple; Acer Sacrum; yes I remember all the Latin names). 1450
White Oak 1360
Ash 1320
Birch 1260
Black Walnut. 1010
Black Cherry. 950
Douglas fir. 660 for reference.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Only white oak can be used for casks because the pores don't run completely through it and it won't leak like red oak will. That is why it is used for casks.
Bondo on an old stock is not cheating; that is customizing.
Ok, read my first post above. There is a hardness scale for wood; of course wood varies quite a bit depending on the conditions under which it was grown, so keep that in mind. Here is the hardness for woods we often use for gun stocks, and for a pattern, you want to use one on the hard end of the scale. LIKE SUGAR MAPLE.
Sure, English walnut might be fine, but why spend that much money on a pattern?
If you are only going to use a pattern a few times; it won't matter much. If you use it a lot, use a hard wood for it.
I didn't major in Forestry for nothing.
(Actually I pretty much did. Destroyed a lot of trees with tanks but that's about the extent of my Forestry career accomplishments)
Meaquite. 2345
Hickory: 1850
Hard Maple (sugar maple; Acer Sacrum; yes I remember all the Latin names). 1450
White Oak 1360
Ash 1320
Birch 1260
Black Walnut. 1010
Black Cherry. 950
Douglas fir. 660 for reference.

I did two mesquite stocks from two rough semi-inlets. You are right, very hard - chipped when using planes - I had to set to a very, very small pass cut. Mainly used rasps. But stable as a battleship. Started with a 6 foot log that was cut into 3" slabs and kiln dried and air dried. Got 2 good semi-inlet stocks from the 5 slabs I cut - Mesquite often has hidden pockets. And the pieces I used were clear.

I have been told by a couple of the old masters that Basswood is the best material for patterns. I think it has more to do with workability than anything else. I have never used it and don't know where you could get pieces of it big enough. I have used mostly walnut that was a byproduct of my stock duplicating business: unsuitable blanks, large cutoffs (sometimes two or three pieces glued together), etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
As for ready to go patterns that are pretty nice as is, Hatcher's out of Australia has a massive selection and nice wood.

Those patterns are some of the ones I mentioned above, as well as some of my own early patterns.

Much of the Aussie-grown European Walnut is as hard as rock maple, but slightly more workable, easier on the tools, and more stable. I've worked very hard, cut a small mountain of gunstock blanks and don't use anything but decent material for patterns. It's a lot of work to cut a pattern from the block by hand, so I make sure I use a reliable blank. Since I started using my own blanks, I have not had a problem with blank stability.

Basswood is used for patterns in the casting industry, or for artistic carvings. It is easy to work, fairly stiff for it's weight, and fairly stable. It is a very light, soft wood. For gunstock pattern work it is far too soft IMO. I wouldn't use most of the black walnut I've seen for patterns either, a lot I've seen is pretty average. Some of it is hard but it's not as stable as the royal wood.

At the end of the day, SDH's comment about stockmakers rings very true. Any stockmaker worthy of the moniker must be able to do the work by hand, and do it well preferably encompassing much of the breadth of stocking guns and rifles. Vital cornerstone skills. For someone with those skills (rare), making patterns and duplicating stocks is then a choice, but to do it well there is also a whole new set of skills to learn. If I come across a duplicator owner who is not a good stocker from the block and they call themselves a stockmaker, to say the least it tells me a lot about their personality. It is fairly rare to find a duplicator owner who is a good stocker and has made a stack of patterns from the block by hand, and who is a good machinist to boot. Beyond those skills and good materials, you are looking at a downward-sliding scale of compromises.

I assumed that Tasmania (home of the Devils?), would have slow growing tight grained wood of any particular species, and you confirmed that.
As for Basswood; it would be on the wood hardness chart way below Douglas fir; and wholly unsuitable for anything but duck decoys (I just made that up). Certainly no good for a stock pattern.
Making stocks from a duplicator has nothing to do with making a stock by hand; different skills required. So, that analogy is not totally valid, to me. And I have done both so I do know how to make stocks, patterns from scratch and from other stocks I modified, and pantagraphed stocks. I even built the duplicator. Which was stolen from me. Another story.

quote:

Originally posted by bt8897:
I ordered a laminate from Richard’s micofit. 96% inlet and bondo did the rest. All 3 of theses stocks are based off their old classic pattern that I changed. I just altered the cheek piece on my pattern and made some small adjustments for each rifle.

I'd say..that shows some real imagination and innovation..Good Job!

quote:

Originally posted by GMyers:
I have been told by a couple of the old masters that Basswood is the best material for patterns. I think it has more to do with workability than anything else. I have never used it and don't know where you could get pieces of it big enough. I have used mostly walnut that was a byproduct of my stock duplicating business: unsuitable blanks, large cutoffs (sometimes two or three pieces glued together), etc.

FYI----in New York where I hunted in the Catskills there is/are a lot of Basswood trees. Not much good except for carving. In fact there is one just out back of the cabin door that must be 100' tall and at least 6 ft. around.

Hip

I don't get the idea that a stock pattern for duplicating needs to be of some super hard material. The inletting is glass bedded to the metalwork every time so is not a factor. If copying the outside causes any significant wear or damage, even with a somewhat softer material, I would think that there is a problem with equipment or technique. Of course there are limits, and I am commenting only on how I duplicate one off stocks with a Hoenig machine. Mass production may have other requirements.

Yes, it definitely depends on how many times you will need to drag that stylus across the wood. It does not have to be super hard; nor can it be balsa wood.
In real mass production pantographs, they used aluminum patterns.
Since many firms now use CNC, you don't need no pattern anyway.

I use 2 1/4"X3/4-1" cherry and just glue it together. Never had one warp. Most of my patterns are not used several times, so I don't waste a lot of time perfecting the outside shape. I often leave the forearm squared off and the cheek piece roughed in. The profile of the pattern is the second part of the pattern that I machine to the numbers, after the inlet. The inlet however has to be established in the right spot and glassed every time I run a semi off it. Most of the ripped stocks glassed, bondo and reshaped for patterns don't have the inletting technically correct in the first place.

I'm a believer in the fact that some blanks move while cutting, machining. Running my custom work on my duplicator allows me to run it oversize one day and come back later and run the finish passes. Although, every stock I've made from a blank has not had any moving problems. This may be because I'm a stickler for educating the client in choosing an exceptional blank. Exceptional meaning LAYOUT, LAYOUT, LAYOUT, as well as being well seasoned to start with.

IMG_3965 by JAMES ANDERSON, on Flickr

GMyers,

I pretty much agree with your comments. Clearly you have experience running a very good duplicator, which is not too common so it's good to hear them.

Not all duplicator operators have ballet dancer fingers, and not all duplicator operators glass in their inlets 100%, etc etc.

I've been employed doing pattern work in the past. I've been dumb enough to do quite a bit of it for various entities. I have seen good tough patterns I've made or repaired from good walnut leave my hands and suffer significant wear, both externally, in the inlet and also showing crazy tailstock pressures used. Yes, this is technique related, "muppet factor" stuff, but it seems to be a common enough problem. It' an eye opener when you get to see the stock copied from a pattern given such treatment.

I've seen patterns I know have been copied a great many times and survived just fine in my hands, bastardised in short order by others.

I choose pattern material for stability and rigidity first, hardness second. Rigidty and hardness tend to go hand-in-hand in walnut blanks and for me it's icing on the cake. I don't personally have a problem with pattern wear, even in un-protected patterns at the softer end of the wood I've used. If anyone is marking up a pattern with the follower, they for sure are deflecting the pattern and not machining a true copy. I suppose an inlet between steadies might be excluded, but still...marking up an inlet is heavy handed workmanship to my mind.

Fantastic pattern James. All of your work is fantastic, though, haha.

Speaking of layout, other than choosing a good blank I feel it should be pointed out that the duplicator allows us to get the last beesdick out of a blank, colour, figure, layout. I love being able to do that.

I agree re giving the blank a chance to move. Fancy walnut is often grown under great stresses, the equilibrium of which eventually becomes stable after seasoning in blank form. That can and does change when wood is removed during stock making. Machining in stages (resting between) allows the blank some time to move and settle.

It's great when a customer can visit and approve a pattern stock sitting on their metalwork before the stock is made. That is a great advantage to me, and no doubt others in the trade like yourself who choose to do it that way.

Far from a "cookie cutter" effort.

Pic of one of my mesquite stocks on a 404 Jeffery. Taken last summer after a successful buffalo hunt. PH 416 Rem Whitworth behind my rifle, 1920s 450 NE William Evans in the background.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/R7nJ1hAr6pt35tPc8