I have been looking at two lathes in particular for my gunsmithing needs, Birmingham and Grizzly.

I have heard good things about Grizzlies, but I haven't heard anything about Birminghams.

The lathes I am looking at are in the $2000 range. The Birmingham YCL-1236 and the Grizzly G4002

Does anybody have any experience with either one of these lathes or have any recommendations of other lathes?

The lathe will be primarily be for barreling.

Thanks,

James

Make sure the lathe will turn slow enough for threading. Remember you have to get it off the truck and located so plan ahead.
Good Luck!

A backgear speed of 90 is fine for chambering & at least a 1 1/2 hole through the headstock is a must have.

very similar lathes. with a decent, though not great, through spindle hole. negatives at the end

they are both imports, with the birmingham being the frejoth/acra http://www.acramachinery.com and MIGHT be taiwan, not china... ASK, as it's a better machine if it is.

I have the frejoth, which is the eailer version, and mine is rated as a 13-37.

if you do go for the grizzly, get the 4003, which is the same in all aspects as the 4002, except it's 36" rather than a 24"... TRUST ME, you'll want that.

and it's about 100 more than the 4002, with the same price for shipping.

Harbor freights sells this as well, and if you wait, you can find it for FREE shipping

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33274

a good starting place to learn about lathes is
http://www.littlemachineshop.com

grizzly has collet and taper attachments for these.

All of these imports are going to suffer in accuracy. For example, I have leveled, tuned, and tweaked mine... and it has very little runout TIR (about .001 at a foot.) but that's NOT good enough for benchrest barrels.

Also, you can buy an american, italian, or perhaps a british 15-16" lathe used for little, if any more than a new import. That size lathe is a little large for most shops, and requires 3 phase power. generally in the 5 to 7.5 hp. I have seen MANY 10-12 inch "western" lathes go for MORE than the same lathe in 15-16". In fact, something like 3k for most american/european 10-12", and then 1500-2000 for the same machine in 15-16 inch.

If you have 3 phase available, it's not an issue. call your power company and ask how far that is, but REMEMBER to tell them it's for hobby/home NOT industrial use.

as a rule of thumb, the bigger the lathe, the bigger the spindle hole.

jeffe

Remember you get what you pay for. I work for and sell that kind of equipment, a 2000 dollar lathe would be a tinker toy. If you want to chamber barrels look at the Clausings

How much does a suitable sized (for gun work) Clausing sell for?

Rojelio

Another great lathe for barrel work is the South Bend Heavy 10, but one of them in good condition are in the $5K to $6K range.

Kory

I've found several 10" Clausings and South Bends around with all the high schools closing their metalworking programs(its a shame - but in some cases they are being consolidated into a three county program with new equipment).

The only downfall on these machines are the length of the bed, typically you can only find 24" between centers at these school auctions.

I've got both now, and prefer the 4900 Clausing for almost everything, but unless the barrel is pretty short - I end up chambering through the headstock.

Only downfall with the Clausing is trying to find steady rests and such. It took me over a year to locate one...South Bend stuff is a dime a dozen. While replacement parts(screws, nuts, way wipers, etc.) are easily purchased through the service department for both makes, it is a little pricey....

But at least you can get it, some friends that have bought Asian import machines just flat out can't get the stuff. And they spend a helluva lot of time trying to get the machine right after they unpack it. Gear problems, casting problems, crooked ways, etc.

I gave $300 for the Clausing, $900 for the South Bend. I'm not too far from South Bend here, keep thinking about taking their SB10" over to their service department for a regrind and scrape which will run about $1700. Its still in serviceable shape, and cuts pretty true - just kind of looks like hell.

I have one of the Grizzly DF 1237G. It is 36 inches between centers. I bought it new from Gizzly about 15 years ago. I have threaded and chambered maybe 150 actions with it.

Here's what I think, if you know how to run a lathe, and almost never make a mistake, in other words, run the cartridge into the chuck or engauge the power feed and the threading lever at the same time, these machines will work for you. If you do an of the above mistakes, you will brake the machine and spare parts come from the far east. I could take months for parts to find their way to you. I've known other users who have had that problem. These are nice machines, but not for the beginner.

I was looking at the $2000 machines when I went in saerch of a lathe. I finally bought a 20"x 90" Monarch for $4500. The $2000 machines are tinker toys.

The Monarch was made in 1937 and I can still get factory parts for it. Runs dead true and nothing breaks.

Good quality, heavy lathes are available if you will look. The Sherman, Texas ISD closed their metal shop and auctioned it off today, The 5 Victor lathes 16x40 went for $2300-$2450. The 16x40 Nardini was $1600, and the 16 x 40 Leblond was about $2500. I ran them all and they had Aloris toolpost and toolholders also. These were well maintained and clean machines. Call the school districts and colleges. Most are going out of the metal working and woodworking business. Butch

As somebody who cuts metal for a living, I'd like to weigh in...

First - avoid the HF machines, their quality is too inconsistant. I've heard enough horror stories to tell you that it isn't worth the small savings in cash.

Second - Plan on spending money... ALOT of it. Between a lathe and tooling, figure a minimum of 3 grand, probably closer to four.

Now about machines...
Grizzley has a "good" reputation as a asian import, but I don't personally care for them, I don't think their rugged enough.

South Bends of any kind, are in my opinion, overpriced. Blame it on all those guys who learned on them, training books featuring them, etc.

Clausings are a good "bang for your buck" kinda deal. My 5900 cost me $900. Be warned, though, the 5900 series have a bad reputation for the speed control, but it shouldn't put you off if you find one for a good price - most guys who have one where the speed control goes bad simply replace it with a VFD and a direct drive.

Leblond's are the top end of the market, alonq with Victor's(to a smaller degree) but will cost you. I was looking at a 15 x 54 that went for $7000.. It would have been a first class barreling lathe.

My advice is to keep an eye out for auctions and pay attention to the other bidders. Learn what makes a good buy and what doesn't. Learn to tell a wiped out machine from a pristine one.


Toolmaker

Toolmaker,

What do you think of Nardini? I had an opertunity to buy one is really good shape, but I didn't know anything about them. I opted for a Hardingle HLV-H and restored it. I love my HLV-H, except the distance between centers (18") is too small to polish barrels. I can chamber through-the-spindle just fine.

Kory

Hello Kory, I guess that I will have to continue doing all my work on my 6913 Clausing. I am very jealous of your HLV-H. Butch

Butch, don't feel bad. I'm very jealous of your talent.

BTW, nice shooting last weekend. Congrats.

Regards,
Kory

My pick for a barreling lathe would have to go to the Monarch 10EE, followed by the Hardinge HLVH.

Using either of them for cutting barrels is like using a ferrari to deliver pizza though.

Kory, I have no personal experience with the Nardini's but my suspicion is that their quality is not on par with "the name brands".


Toolmaker

A guy buys a lathe about as often as he gets married. Hopefully he learns from his mistakes at every junction.

After living with one for a while, you will know more of what to look for.

Toolmaker,

Thanks for the reply. Actually chambering barrels on a HLV-H is not as easy as you might this. The spindle more is 1.25, which means you are limitted to Light Varmint class barrels or thinner. The distance through the spindle is roughly 19 inches, and most benchrest barrels are cut down to 21 1/2 inches, so with Butch's help, I had to build a low profile 4 jaw chuck to be able to swing the barrel around and crown it.

Cutting threads, however, is an absolute joy on the HLV-H. They put a lot of thought and effort to make it easy and fool proof.

Regards,
Kory

Toolmaker, do you put a center in the spindle of the 10EE as the distance in the headstock is too great to run it through the spindle? I would like to do that also but couldn't see a way to over come that problem. Butch

James B., first of all, I know very little about machining equipment. I usually read threads like these just to exacerbate my jealousy of guys who do have the talent and ability to be a machinist. I wish I had learned to do that instead of getting those BA and engineering classes under my belt......
So why do I post one may ask, well simply, I have a good friend who buys and sells machine tools for a living. His name is John Otto, and his business name is 'Ottomatics'. I don't have his contact info with me as I am away from my office, but if you are interested let me know and I will get it for you. Alternatively you might do a search or call information for 'Ottomatics' in Roswell,
Georgia.

Good Luck--Jealously, Don.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Toolmaker, do you put a center in the spindle of the 10EE as the distance in the headstock is too great to run it through the spindle? I would like to do that also but couldn't see a way to over come that problem. Butch

I think you may have misread, I don't actually own a 10EE(not at what they're getting for them - up to ten grand ) I have a Clausing 5900. But the machine I learned to barrel on, a 50 year old South Bend(a BIG SB, not the ones most people are familiar with) had a looooong spindle hole. The trick my boss came up with(he's the one who taught me, and he's a certifiable accuracy nut) is this, after using gauge blocks and pin gauges to determine the ID of the spindle, he made up a center dohickey that just fit inside with a center point. Now on this machine, the back end of the spindle was threaded, so he just screwed it in - if this isn't an option, you may have to figure out a spider/setscrew arrangement.

Oh, one more thing, forget four jaw chucks. Get a Buck six jaw "adjust tru". Yeah, I know they're expense, even used, but trust me, getting that last tenth is so much easier.

Kory, only a 1.25"? I could have sworn they were 1 3/8", but even at 1.25 a BR barrel should still fit, albiet very, very tightly.

And since we're all putting out names of machinery dealers:

Mullin Machinery
917-974-9381
mullinmach[at]msn.com


Toolmaker

just for my 2 cents worth. stay the hell away from the chinese crap. go to a good honest machinery dealer & look at used stuff. listen to what toolmaker says. the 6 jaw buck check will set you back over a grand, but 90% of the lathes accuracy is in the chuck. If you have a friend that is a machinist, see if he'll come along and help you

There is an ad in today's Mpls Red Star, column 344, for a Monarch 14 x 36 for $1750

Thank you for the responses.

I have been in the mold and die business for ten years, and believe me when I say, building the best BR rifles is cake compared to mold and die work for the medical field. So its fair to say that I have plenty of experience in the machining world.

Jeffeosso, when you say you have .001 TIR runout at one foot what do you mean? Are you sticking a ground shaft in the chuck and measuring that? Are you saying that the bearings in the headstock are loose or out? Is the lathe cutting diameters that are not perfectly round, oval? I typically do my chambering throught the headstock right now but, if I use a steady rest that would almost eliminate the runout; a half a thou over 20+ inches.

Toolmaker, I am well aware of the expenses involved in tooling up a lathe and I have plenty of access to as much tooling as I need, so it is of no concern. When you say the Grizzlies aren't rugged enough what do you mean. The lathe is only going to be used for barreling rifles no turning 12" square blocks of steel into 1" round stock. I have been looking for auctions, but it to hard to tell what you get until you get it home and start cutting steel. Alot of the lathes I have seen at auctions have been worked pretty hard and who knows what kind of weird kinks you might find.

Why wouold you spend the money on a Buck six jaw for doing barrels, I have no problem dialing in a 4 jaw to within a dead indicator reading, perfect.

But, thanks for the advice, it is a relief to talk to someone that knows something about machining besides the garage machinist.

Fish30114, thanks for your honesty. As an engineer you should take some machining classes to learn. You would be surprised how usefull it will become in engineering.

Thanks,

James

Hi James,

Many gunsmith use 4 jaw chucks instead of a 6 jaw set-tru and it works just fine even for competition quality BR rifles.

Although I have great respect for Jeff, I have to disagree with him regarding his comments on runout. A .001 taper over 12 inches is less than .0001 per inch.

Most of the runout issues for import lathes has to do with headstock/bed alignment. But in reality, you are only going in a couple of inchea to chamber a barrel.

If you float the reamer (the only option in my opinion) it will do a great job as long as the initial chamber was bored nice and round.

Regards,
Kory

James, my 4 jaw is quicker to dial in than my Tru-Adjust 6 jaw. The bore of your barrel is not concentric with the od of the barrel and the bore is not straight. You can use the steady rest and dial it in as best as you can, then put a 4" indicator rod in it and put one indicator next to the muzzle and one out on the end of the rod and see how much run out you have.Another test. Indicate both ends of your barrel through the headstock and then put in the PTG indicating rod, it should show no run out next to the muzzle but will have run out at the end of the indicator rod. This is not you or your machine, it is the crooked hole through your barrel. I am not a gunsmith or machinest, but have chambered a lot of BR barrels. I have also worked in a machine shop for many years. Chambering a barrel is not that big a deal. Your tools and patience with set up are what counts. Butch

I hope I don't sound grumpy.. just tired this am.

quote:

Originally posted by Kory:
Although I have great respect for Jeff, I have to disagree with him regarding his comments on runout. A .001 taper over 12 inches is less than .0001 per inch.

Regards,
Kory

Kory,
we might be talking about different things, on this one. I am not talking about a taper, I am talking about total indicated run out at 12" away from the chuck. That infers it reduces as you get closer to the chuck.
I am saying that if you take and measure the "wiggle" on a drill rod, at 1 foot, this is the best I can do. TIR is caused (nominally) by the chuck, then bearings, then gears, then motor harmonics, then leveling and twisting of the bed.

quote:

Originally posted by James_B:
Thank you for the responses.
Jeffeosso, when you say you have .001 TIR runout at one foot what do you mean? Are you sticking a ground shaft in the chuck and measuring that? Are you saying that the bearings in the headstock are loose or out? Is the lathe cutting diameters that are not perfectly round, oval? I typically do my chambering throught the headstock right now but, if I use a steady rest that would almost eliminate the runout; a half a thou over 20+ inches.


Thanks,

James

James,
You probably wouldn't see .0005 at 20" in an asian import. The tools would pick up more than that from the motor harmonics. Asian lathes are built to SHIP and save cost on shipping, not to be ACCURATE and damn the shipping cost.

jeffe

Here's my view on the Asian import $2k 12X36, 12X37, 13X36 lathes. For the money, they can do alot of work. No, they aren't production machines, no they aren't really heavy and super solid so one can't take massive hogging cuts. That said, with a competent operator, they can thread/chamber a barrel better then the average hack smith running the best of lathes.

If one is willing to spend alot of time looking for a good deal on a surplus lathe, then yes, you can get a better used machine for the same money. That said, you may have to look for quite awhile, and pass up alot of used machines. Your odds of getting a scrapped out used machine that won't do accurate work before a complete rebuild is much higher then looking in the paper and finding a cherry used machine.

I would say if you do go the import route, I'd recomend Grizzly. There tools aren't necessarily better than all the other importers of the same tools, but they actually offer customer service, and for the same price as HF and Enco, why not buy from a company that will replace damaged stuff in a timely manner?

Paul H, Yea, I have to agree with thought of finding a used lathe. I live in the Northwest so I think I am going to go ahead with the Grizzly since they come from the Seattle area

I use removable pilots fit to within a .0001 of the barrel and use a floating reamer holder, the combination of using both will take most of the inaccuracies out of the operation.

Thanks for the info.

James

Are you on any of the mailing lists for the surplus sales at the aerospace companies?

I've seen some smoking deals on Ebay for machines that look pretty nice....

fireball168 where do you sign up for that list?
I assume that they also have milling machines.

I get a bunch, but mainly in the Ohio/Indiana/Michigan/Wisconsin area.

Do a search on machinery appraisal or resale on google with your state, they're all over the place here.

The next flyer I get, I'll scan and post.

quote:

Originally posted by James_B:
Toolmaker, I am well aware of the expenses involved in tooling up a lathe and I have plenty of access to as much tooling as I need, so it is of no concern. When you say the Grizzlies aren't rugged enough what do you mean. The lathe is only going to be used for barreling rifles no turning 12" square blocks of steel into 1" round stock. I have been looking for auctions, but it to hard to tell what you get until you get it home and start cutting steel. Alot of the lathes I have seen at auctions have been worked pretty hard and who knows what kind of weird kinks you might find.

I live in the North East - they're are auctions here every week. So finding a good lathe is simply a matter of knowing what you want and having the cash to grab it.

I see good lathes all the time. I also see alot of junk. You indicated you're "one of us" so I assume you can tell junk from gold. I don't know where exactly you are, but there should be some auctions up in the northwest.

I don't spend a grand on a new buck six jaw, I got mine used, I think I paid about a bill and a half for it. Considering I also paid a C note for a good used 4 jaw, the cost is relative.

I find I can dial down alot easier with the six jaw than with the four, especially when splitting tenths.

And oh, just so you people know, Most of the Asian Imports don't use UL approved motors.(Grizzly does). So add the cost of a new motor into the equation, unless you like the idea of burning down your house.


Toolmaker.

James,
Well worth checking out what Boeing Surplus has on offer, being where you are.

There's a Clausing Colchester 13 lathe there now that could be worth considering. Quite a bit of tooling available, too.

A good site for machine tool model info is here.

James B,

Did you end up getting a lathe? If so, what did you decide on?

Steve