OK, I want to say from the beginning that I don't mean for this thread to turn depressing. So here goes...

What's the average guy to do when he wants a new rifle? A Remington 700 will get you or your buddy's head blown off. The new Winchester M70's don't feed, shoot, and the bottom metal is crap, and the pre-64's are at a premium. Ruger 77's and Savages just aren't refined enough. The Ruger No. 1's aren't built square enough to hit the broad side of a barn. Used rifles can be hit or miss. And how many of us can really afford a $10,000 custom Mauser. I'm sure I've forgotten to list someone's favorite object of bashing, but feel free to add to the list in your post. Now I know I'm exagerating to a certain degree, but to read many of the posts on this and other forums it could make someone in the market for a rifle feel helpless.

So seriously, for the guy who can afford to spend $700-$800 on a rifle (forget optics for a minute, one can of worms at a time ), and this is a big purchase for him, what would you guys recommend he do for a good quality, safe, and accurate rifle? With all the criticism out there I'm just curious to hear some of your solutions.

Thanks in advance, and again I don't want this to come off in an accusatory or derogatory manner, but it seems that there are often more problems than solutions offered.

Thanks,
Bob

How many rifles do you own? If you want something better than what the factories have to offer I can see no reason to not own one or two custom rifles (term used loosely) instead of a vault full of factory stuff (nothing wrong with that if thats what you like). For the price of a couple of factory rifles you should be able to have a rifle that is better in appearance, fit and function. But remember when it comes to custom rifles, the sky is the limit.

Chuck

CZ 550 American? Caliber of your choice from those available from the factory.

Charles Daly Mausers. As mentioned, CZ's. Tikka's. All good rifles, all relatively inexpensive. - Dan

Bob, what's wrong with Ruger?I own two No 1's and an M77 Mk II and I like them:good value for the money.Also have a pre '64 M70,rather scarce around here,I believe. Have also a Ferlach made Mauser,not really a custom rifle,looks nice,but is'nt any better.For a hunter a normal factory rifle should do the job.Most criticism on the factory rifles is a bunch of crap,in my opinion.
Compared to,for example a Johansen rifle,they are indeed of inferior quality,but one can buy more than ten M77's for one Johansen,big difference!
Hugh.

Thanks for all the replies, and so quickly!!! Believe it or not I really didn't write this for myself. Many of the criticisms are not my own, just what I've read. For my purposes, many of the offerings out there are mostly adequate. I can just see how someone could interpret all the bashing of different manufacturers from the perspective that I wrote the original post. With that said I have seen rifles that are just plain poorly made, and I understand that there are models that are poorly designed (either in terms of safety, ergonomics, etc.).

Keep 'em coming! I'm interested to hear as many solutions to today's rifle issues as I can get.

Bob

Bob,

My local dealer passed me the 2003 Beretta catalog yesterday. Now that Beretta has acquired Sako and Burris, there is a lot more "stoff" in the catalog.

I particular I would look at the Tikka and Sako rifles. I have been shooting a Tikka Battue carbine in .308 Win for some years, and a Sako L61R .30-'06 for longer. Both look good, run well and are accurate out of the famous box. The pricing on the new T-3 Tikka seems especially good, although I haven't examined one yet.

I also have three BRNO/CZs (.22 Mag, .22 Hornet and .375 H&H), and no one in the world can touch them for what you get in blue steel and walnut for the prices they charge.

I also have a couple of rifles in the works using Montana Rifleman M99 actions. These make up into great rifles, and you can choose how much you want to spend.

Finally as noted above you can go for a semi-custom or custom rifle that is capable of a wide range of hunting. I would look for a .30-'06 in the used custome gun market -- I expect you will find great value for your money there.

jim dodd

Saw a nice clean Pre '64 FW in .308 at a local gunshop for $550. That included a Leupold 4X scope. They are out there, keep looking.

There is nothing wrong with m-700 for a practical hunter. I have never had an extractor problem with mine. Rugers are OK. The shortcomings are more theoretical that practical. Hey, you don't need a '98 mauser with intregal bases made by Holland and Holland. It is really nice but not necessary. Kimber and Dakota are awfull nice too.

Why do you want a new rifle? Like cars you can get a much better value with a used item. I would personally go for that Pre '64 if I already didn't have several. Grab the Featherweight and go hunting. If I really wanted the "crem de la crem" I would get a beat pre 64 and have a top of the line barrel installed. Get a nice stock made to your specs. If you can find an "in betweenie" eager young stock maker, you could secure a very nice stick for maybe $800. The barrel $300, the action for $400. That comes to about $1500. You will be proud as a new parent.

Bob,
One of the things you can do is stop being so gloomy, lol. The trigger on the Remington can and should be replaced. The Model 70 is not as bad as you say. Ruger 77's and Savages are more than sufficient hunting rifles. Ruger #1's are plenty accurate enough for hunting or if they do need some tuning it is not difficult. I have seen very good pre 64's for $600. So you have lots of options open to you.

Problem is people have to put this Minute of gnats ass requirements on hunting rifles and it just isn't necessary. Get a rifle, learn how to shoot and ignore the rhetoric you see so often.

Also, as was also mentioned, CZ, Sako, Tika, (dalys are still not being shipped here, I think). Browning, and a host of others. It is not as bad out there as you make it sound.

Bob,

Something Chic posted reminded me of another thing to add. I like to say that as a hunter, I specialize in shooting one-shot groups.

You need a rifle that puts that first shot where you want it.

jim

Here's what I did when I wanted a new rifle. I decided to convert one I already had. Rem 700 LA 25-06 got stolen, then 12 years later it was returned, less the bolt. After the factory proofed in a new bolt I found it couldn't hit the broad side of a barn so I sent it off to R.W. Hart and Son in Nescopek, PA. Bobby Hart installed one of his cousin's stainless barrels with muzzle brake, squared and trued the action, tricked the factory trigger, chambered for my choice of wildcat [338-06 AI] skim bedded it into an H-S Precision stock. All for about $800. Less than $700 if you leave off the brake. I spent a couple bucks and painted the barreled action flat black with a spray can from Brownells, just to make it look uniform. The very first 5 shot group with 250 gr Sierra's gave one ragged hole. What more could you ask for in a sporter weight hunting rifle? Now I've got something that's totally what I wanted; no compromise. I was so happy with this rifle that I took a Rem 700 SA 222 and had the same treatment done but with a bull barrel[no brake] chambered for 223AI set in a Fajen Ace Varminter laminated stock. Even less total cost than the first one. The last 5 shot group out of this gun was .294" I can't shoot better than that. Or probably more to the point, I don't care to spend enough time fine-tuning my handloads to shoot smaller groups.

So my advise is to combine the raw materials from a used gun, let a good gunsmith screw on a topnotch barrel, bed it evenly and smooth the trigger. Those are the three things that yield the most bang for your buck anyway. Pardon the pun!

If we are talking about an average Joe and the average Joe�s budget is $700 to $800 my advice is to do the following.

1. Purchase a Thompson Encore carbine Frame (Not a whole rifle)
2. Purchase the barrel of your choice from one of the custom makers like Bullberry, Virgin Valley, Van Horn, etc. (ALL have a 1� @100yrds GUARANTEE !!)
3. Go Hunt

Granted, an Encore is not considered as �High Class� as a bolt rifle. But the question wasn�t about class, it was about Joe average getting an accurate hunting rifle without spending tons of money.

This way, Joe average gets a rifle with a Guaranteed accurate barrel that will not miss feed (Unless he fumbles his ammo) and comes in his choice of barrel lengths, calibers, and stock designs. All this, for a price around $650. ($275 for the frame and $375 for barrel and custom floated forend)

The rest of the money is left for the purchase of practice ammo. Then, with his newly acquired shooting skill, Joe Average will only need one shot. Thus, negating the need for a bolt rifle.


[ 04-10-2003, 04:57: Message edited by: J.W. Blute ]

I dont think most guys would be limited at all with a savage bolt gun and a leupold vx1 or vx2. Easily less than $500 for the whole deal. It really doesnt have to be expensive, unless your main purpose is to impress your buddies. Just my opinion.

for the average joe?

a cz 550 safari in 300winmag for ~600 (wish it was in 338)
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=8304096

OR
cz full stock in 7x57 for $539
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=8296894

model 70 safety installed and blued
$200

restock if you want. rebed as a matter of course

that's what the average joe can do

jeffe

[ 04-10-2003, 07:11: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Well...I can tell you about myself, a one rifle hunter. A few years back, I bought a Ruger M77 MK-II in .338WM for $399.00. A friend of mine ordered a Leupold Vary-X III (2.5-8x) for me, and I paid $250.00 for it. The stock on this rifle was extremely ugly, and the thin and hard recoil pad didn't help with recoil. The trigger was stiff, so I replaced it with a Timney, and last year I replaced the stock with a $100.00 Hogue Rubber-Overmolded one. This stock has a thick recoil pad, and it feels great on my shoulder when I fire the rifle.

By now you are probably thinking that I haven't said much, so let me close by telling that I have killed several moose with this rifle, and most with one shot. Would I buy another rifle just like it? You bet! I chose perhaps the best cartridge for hunting in Alaska where most game is large. I won't use this rifle for squirrel or ground hog hunting, so I don't need 1" groups at 200 yards, but game from deer to moose-size is dead meat within 300 yards. This range limit is self imposed, since I use bullets from 230 grains to 300.

Select a cartridge for the game you plan to hunt, and become proficient with it. Any rifle by itself is accurate enough, and the rest is up to you.

[ 04-11-2003, 08:07: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

I would strongly recommend a Howa 1500. They, and CZs, are the true definition of value.

Howa 1500 stainless/synthetic: $399
Bell & Carlson Medalist stock: $195
Sightron SI 3-9X40: $125
Burris Zee rings: $ 40
Weaver bases: $ 15

Grand total: $774

I'm getting .5 to .75 MOA for three shots, depending on whose ammo I shoot. 150 grain Remington Express 30-06 does the best.

[ 04-10-2003, 08:40: Message edited by: Orion 1 ]

I have accurized surplus Mausers that shoot .75" avg. with commercial ammo, some of which were true unissued Yugos. I can easily push Sierra 200grn. pills to 2500 fps, not many creatures on this planet will stand up to that load.
The most expensive one to date only cost $189.00.
The fit and finish on some of these is as good you will ever see.

Do what I do and buy CZ's there a poor mans custom in my opinion

Average Joe, do what I do. Forget the Remington bashers. For that matter, forget the "its made in America so it must be dirt" bashers and buy a Remington. That's what I've been doing for 40 years and have never had a problem with any of them. If the chicken littles have you frightened enough, get an after market trigger for it. Then you will have one of the most accurate, strongest rifles on the market. As there are so many smiths that specialize in Remingtons, if you want any whistles or bells that don't come on the rifle, they are more than ready to accomodate you.

I agree that one should ignore the Remington and standard factory rifle bashers.

I have a Rem 700 7MM RM that I bought about 1962. It was before they were on the shelves, and it has a stainless barrel. It has never let me down and groups within MOA. When I read of all the problems, I just ignore it and keep on shooting it.

I have two pre 64 M 70s. They have never failed in any way, and shoot well. They are my favorites.

I have a Sako Mag Mauser that was .300 H&H rechambered to the .300 Wby. It has never let me down. I paid less than $140 new in Alaska when they were discontinued by Sako.
I have Springfields that were remodeled and various other factory and semi custom rifles. I don't have a bunch of money in any of them.

I believe that we have a generation of hunters and riflemen who are so enamored with the custom stuff and 1/2 MOA accuracy in hunting rifles, that they have lost sight of what hunting is all about. I have no quarrel with anyone who wants such, but they often put forth that you cannot be successful if you do not have a 1/2 minute rifle in some new magnum cartridge, and a $1000 German scope. That is nonsense.

My Weavers, Lymans, Redfields, and Leupolds have served me well mounted on factory rifles for over 45 years. I admit that they are mostly retired now, as I am.

Find a good Rem 700 or other factory rifle that feels good, get a cartridge such as 30-06, a good scope by the makers I have mentioned, get some loads which will group within 1 1/2 MOA, and go hunting.

Your success as a hunter depends upon your scouting, effort, skill as a hunter and shooter, and little on your rifle assuming it doesn't malfunction. I have never had one malfunction.

Want a custom rifle? Fine, but don't be depressed if you can't afford one. You will never be successful or unsuccessful as a result of your rifle.

Jerry

JerryM,
Very well said.

mho
I agree.
In my youth I wanted a custom rifle by the likes of Al Beisen (SP?}. I had read Warren Page's expereince with his 7MM Mashburn Short Magnum. He had had Masburn make it so that it weighed about 8 lb with scope and mount.

I contacted Mashburn about building me a similar rifle. I specified 1 1/2 moa accuracy with full power hunting loads. They answered that they could not guarantee that degree of accuracy in such a light rifle. Remember we are talking of the 60's.

As a result, I never had a custom rifle built. I was afraid I would spend 1500 or 2000 and get a rifle that would not group within my minimum requirements. I had several standard factory rifles which would exceed those standards.

I don't know if I am sorry or not that I never had a custom rifle built by a top flight maker. If I could have gotten the accuracy standards it would have been great, but if not it would just be a pretty to look at. That "ain't all that bad." My wife never objected to my guns and gun buying. I never drank or gambled so the guns were not very important to her one way or the other.

If I were a young man today, I would probably have one made. However, as said, I would not have taken a single of additional head of game with it than what I have had.
I admit that I am somewhat "tight" and I still would have trouble paying the price of a custom rifle when I could get Weatherbys, Sakos, etc for much less and they shoot just as well. Not as pretty though.

Jerry

Chicken Littles huh?

WHEN YOU CYCLE THE ACTION ON A NEARLY NEW, "CLEAN" RIFLE AND IT FIRES UPON BOLT CLOSURE, THAT ISN'T HERESAY, ITS A FACT!

Why should we support a manufacturer that has a known safety related defect and continues to sell the same design by the millions?

Why should we pay for a replacement, on top of an already inflated price?

When I first started shooting and hunting,I was self taught. I read (and still do) everything about the sport I could get my hands on. I was sold on the sub MOA thing and was pissed off when my rifle wouldn't shoot MOA groups. It shoots 1.5 MOA with factory stuff and a little better when I use home grown stuff. BUT MOA doesn't seem important anymore, since moving to the Territory I use that rifle a lot and my confidence in it has grown. I can hit pigs running, standing, wallowing from 3 to 120 meters (a long shot here)because I know my rifle and 1.5 MOA is more that enough for pigs, donkeys, Dingo's etc.
And the rifle?



Its a Sweedish Mauser 96 with a new military barrel, Bushnell 3-9x scope,lynx rings,timmney trigger and a stock made from some type of hard wood.
Cost me around $500.
Later on it will wear a nice piece of walnut.

Bakes

TERRY,
It just doesn't worry me. The M 700 has been out for so many years I don't know when it was introduced.

I have had mine since the early 60s, and have shot it a lot. I never heard of the problem until this board. It must not be much of a problem. I know so many hunters who have a M 700 that I couldn't count them. No problems.

If it bothers you then don't buy one and if you have one sell it.

I'll continue to use mine without any worry.
Each of us has that right.

Jerry

Heres my Kimber 96( rebuilt 96 swede mauser) in 6.5x55 with an old bushnell banner 6x. Total cost was $250.


If you wanted a closer range rig you could set up a used marlin .35 rem for about the same cost.

It would not be hard to set up a gun to hunt anywhere in the world for under $400.

Having said that, I wouldn't head off to a $20k african safari with a $400 gun, but on the other hand, I don't think many would bet against my success if I did.

Good shooting, Weagle

A great and pretty gun.
An "average guy" who did not like factory guns would be well served with that rifle and cartridge.

The other day a neighbor brought me a Lee Enfield Mk4 that had been completely reconditioned by the factory years ago, and wanted to know if he should sell it or keep it. He did not really want to keep it.

It had been modified with the barrel cut to 21.5 inches, and the stock sporterized, and had the receiver sight. It was in beautiful shape inside and outside as far as I was concerned.

I didn't need it but wished I did. I gave it back to him. The .303 British has probably killed more game over the world than any cartridge.
Not really a good rifle to handload for, however.

Anyway, I like your rifle.

Jerry

JerryM, Thanks. Regarding the original post: I think anyone could buy a pretty decent rifle and scope for $400 if they spent a little time shopping. Ebay always has used leupold scopes, and a pretty decent mauser type rifle should be around $250. Old JC higgins, interarms mark x ,and Herters rifles are some sleepers than can usually be bought pretty cheap. Theres is no reason for the "Average Joe" to go broke buying a decent rifle.
Good shooting,
Weagle

Hey! I've owned over 50 Remingtons over the years and this is the only rifle that ever failed or had any safety problems.

One time Is One Time Too Many!
I have sold or given to family all of them except a 7mag that my brother had already replaced the trigger/safety group.

Ever notice how most, not all, Remington lovers are the ones that spend an additional $400.00 - $600.00 bucks on truing , barrels, stocks and trigger groups?

Kinda' like my buddy paying $18,000.00 for his new Harley then waiting 3 weeks and spending another $4,500.00 on engine mods, so he can barely keep up with my $9,000.00 Honda (no, not a crotch rocket, I'm too old for that crap).

Not meant as a flame, just an observation of different personalities and thought patterns.

For around $900 I had a custom built in 275 Rigby on a VZ 24 action. For around $500 I bought an early 60's vintage Dumoulin built on a FN action in 338 Win Mag, for under $500 I got a new in box Browning Lever Rifle in 300 Win Mag. There may be too many options for the average guy, they keep showing up and I keep buying them. If you shop and haggle you could probably come up with a Safari Grade Browning on an FN action in your price range also.

Here's what I did when I had the urge for a new rifle... I took a 1916 Danzig mauser that was semi-sporterized back in the 50's by polishing it, adding a peep sight and butchering the stock and the bore was pitted. Mine was given to me, but you can usually pick these up for less than $75.. they look like junk...

I scrapped the barrel, removed the peep sight, had the bolt handle replaced, replaced the saftey, trued the action, lapped the lugs, drill and tap for scope, timney trigger, leupold bases and rings.. cost to this point for work and parts = $360

Ordered a stainless fluted Adams & Bennett barrel from midway and a stock.. add $250.

A dear friend of mine, who also happens to be a master machinist for the last 50 years is installing and chambering the barrel for me this week. No charge. I'll do the bedding work on the stock myself. cost of glass $20..

So in about a month I'll have a new toy to play with that cost me $630 for a heavy barreled 308.

It's been a fun project, and I'm looking for another "junker" where I can salvage the action for the next project. I'd really like to find a beat-up(read: CHEAP) remington 700 action to play with, preferably left handed, but I think that's wishful thinking.

The search continues.....

What this average Joe is doing about it is buying a subscription to Gunlist, and waiting for the right custom rifle to come along for $0.25 on the dollar....... LOL! Dutch.

Gentlemen
I think is much better to buy good used rifles for the money. You can make real bargains sometimes. Patrol the used gun racks and you can be happy soon.

I have a pre war 64 in USA (will take it home on my next trip, I hope..). It was found at a guns show. The barrel were crap and the stock had been fixed with nails. A real beauty

It was a steal, all you need to bring out the bazaar arab and go for it.

My most recent project was a ZG-47 in good condition for 70$.

New rifle the Cz 550 is a very nice rifle, Tikka and Sako is also nice and could be found used. You will also have a better second hand value with a good quality used gun than new "el cheapo".

/ JOHAN

Here's another "Average Joe" Smith Corona 03A3 30.06 in a bishop stock. I am in the process of refinishing the stock but total cost so far is $179.00. There are plenty of nice used rifles out there that won't cost you an arm and a leg. This one will probably be wearing a nice weaver k4-1 I picked up at a gun show for $35.00.

Good shooting, Weagle

very nice weagle! Im a sucker for those old springfields, i never see them around here as nice as that, id snag it up in a heartbeat! Id eventually like to build a couple nice rifles when i can find some good deals like that on a sporterized (dont want to mess with an original), but not butchered, springfield. Nice!

Man, talk about a killer rifle for cheap. Looking around for a nicley done sporter in 03 springfield 30-06, or 98 mauser in 8mm, has got to be the best bang for the buck.

[ 04-16-2003, 05:14: Message edited by: SeanD ]

I've got a super 03, that I paid the princly sum of $85 for... andn it had a buehler scope mount and rings on it.. but someone had cut the stock to about 10"....

walked around the corner, bought a bishop stock for $12, and fit.....

got Larry to open the bolt face and chamber for 300 win (should have done 30-308, but I was a kid). I did the feedwork
$75

weaver 3x9 steel tube, that I got "Free" in a trade...

172$

and it shoots 3/4"
jeffe

weagle

How on earth can you own a nickel/cromed plated mauser 96 action
That should be considered major crime and you should send the idiot to prison who did such thing as cromeing that action. Some things just don't fit and shouldn't be done

/ JOHAN

Scott,
Is that pre 64 308 with the 4x Leupold still available??? I'd buy that one...