Ya Kirk,I knew it was just a matter of time till you came to the rescue. Considering that Boddington and Miller support you and seem to always put in a plug for you in every coues deer article they sell,your character referance of them is fairly worthless. You'd have to be crazy to talk shit about them since they support you. Or maybe in Boddingtons case,its Bob Petersen that pays you,since craig uses the hunt to write an article in Bob's rag. Then you have allen the hunting and shooting prodigy from oregon,who claims to have hunted with you. In allens case he became rather hostile over on huntamerica,when someone called bullshit on him,over his claim of hitting a coues deer at some extreme range and wanted you to back up his shooting ability.

Yeah, John Holmes, I'm the sort of guy who buys Miller rifles and has a couple-hundred trophy mounts on the wall - that part of your "testimony" is true.........

.....I'm also the sort of guy who has taken over thirty mule deer bucks and over twenty bull elk on my own, out of my own camps, without any sort of a guide whatsoever. I'm also the sort of guy who went to school and worked at the same time with four hours of sleep a night for over four years running. I'm also the sort of guy who purchased, rebuilt and resold old farm equipment on the side in order to pay for any sort of hunting rifle or shotgun I wanted to own from the age of eighteen to twenty five. I remember driving and pulling a trailer over 400 miles to net $200 on the sale of an Oliver tractor one time, and that's just one episode.....

I'm also the guy who lived like a pauper and worked like a sonofabitch for a dozen years after college just to barely make ends meet, and I'm the sort of guy with a wife who had two little girls and a Cream Of Wheat budget who also worked fourteen-hour days to just barely get by...... I'm also the guy who got the type education and ran the sort of business risks (risk and reward go hand-in-hand, by the way, just in case you didn't know....) that could sink a dozen years of gut-busting work (including falling trees for a logging company on the side), all in an effort to make a dream or two come true.

Yeah, I'm the sort of guy who owns a Miller rifle or two, and has a few trophies on the wall alright: I paid the price to own 'em. I laid the foundation a long time ago to have 'em, and I did it all the old fashioned way.

Now save your ignorant bullshit for somebody who's interested. If you don't like your lot in life, get to work and change it.......

AD

This is really pretty funny. Mike sure has a way with stirring it up

As far as there being no difference between a $3000 rifle and a $30000, well, yeah and neigh. If one wants to take their toyoto celica to Cheech and Chongs auto body, to have the springs cut, and air dams fit, and say, hey, theres no difference between my car, and that AMG benz, then in a way, he's right, both cars get one between point A and point B, and few folks are capable of driving the benz to its potential, nor is it likely ever that one will have a chance to on public roads.

Some folks would much rather bitch about what they don't and likely won't ever have, then make an effort to get them.

Well, you gotta admit if a person can get $25,000. for a rifle, he would have to be pretty damn dumb to offer one for less....

A number of Gun builders get that kind of money for their guns but they starved to death for the first 30 years...so they have a right to except what the market demands...So Miller deserves his pay. Boddington and Carmichael do also, they had to work hard to get there, I'm thinking thats the American way and it ain't all that bad...

Now to pay a baseball player 25 million, but thats another story!!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Geez Allen that was a really touching story. I just wish you would have added the part about walking up hill to school,in two feet of snow. You need to write a book and call it "Hell I was there too". A whole 30 Mule deer on your own also. Let me guess,you didn't use a guide,but you did kill them on a private ranch.Or did you get them all during the 60's and 70's,when mule deer were a dime a dozen?

[This message has been edited by john holmes (edited 11-02-2001).]

To paraphrase Jeff Cooper about expensive guns: "Its is nice to know that there are people in this world who still make such things, and that there are people who can afford them."

And I might add...it is a demonstable fact that such tools are neither necessary, practical, nor even particularly desireable, for the intended purpose of hunting large and or dangerous gamein less than pleasant environments or circumstances!

Holmes,

If you'd like I can give you 20 to 30 other Manufacturers, writers and other leaders in the industry to bash since it makes you feel good. To the rest of us, who would like to carry on an intelligent conversation, you are a fool. But one good thing has come from it, and that is that you've totally removed all doubt, and we can all agree that intelligence is lacking from your gene pool! And any other responses to your posts are not needed! Thank you!

Kirk Kelso

Paul H-

What type of AMG do you have?

Have you seen or heard anything on the Brabus E series 6.7? Brabus has the worlds fastest sedan, wagon, and one other type of vehicle thats a world record holder. I think they set the world record for a sedan at over 320MPH... Nice cars..

BTW my fav benz is the E55...or is it the 2003 SL55? 700 torque...wow...

There you go kirk! Just ignore me,that'll teach me. As for providing other writers and manufacturers to bash on,that isn't needed. We've already got enough people involved in this thread already. I don't blame you for getting pissed kirk,your just standing up for your livelihood. Even if that living requires you to give guys like Boddington a break,so they'll plug your name in articles.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

A long time ago I used to know a gentleman who was one of H&H Directors - unfortunately he has gone to the Happy Hunting Grounds.

I was looking for a Sako rifle one day in their shop in London, I saw that they had some Sako rifles, priced at about twice the normal price.

When I examine one of these rifles, I saw this written on the barrel SHOT AND REGULATED BY H&H.

I asked Jeremy how do they justify doubling the price by justing sighting the rifle in?

He said " They shoot better now! But I don't think you would want of these. I am sure you would enjoy regulating it yourself, so just buy a standard rifle. Of course, you won't have SHOT AND REGULATED BY H&H engraved on the barrel. Knowing you, that would not mean much anyway, would it?"

No, Jeremy it would not.

Jeremy was a very knowledgeable hunter and shooter. I enjoyed hunting and shooting with him both here and in England.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Allen Day! I don't kiss people's asses, but that was a damn fine speech [and of course johnny holmes(the porn star??) was not detered], but shit...you're the sort of person I can admire.

I haven't said good things about the miller classic, but if YOU like it, more power to you.

Well done.

Jaegermeister,you didn't actually buy into Allen's "I have a dream speech" did you? Chances are,allen's just a trust fund baby living off some dead relatives hard work. I do believe the part about his old lady getting a job though. Hell somebody in the family had to work. Even if his story of rags to riches is true,you'd at least think he would know the value of a dollar and refrain from wasting it on a miller rifle.

The main ssue I have with the Miller rifle are the claims that it is the best rifle in all areas. Granted it may well be the best package

Undoubtedly the H&H rifle is trading strongly on name and I think it is aimed at a market with much more money to spend than is the case for the Miller rifle.

If I had the money I would get the H&H probably becuase I am a sucker for that last bastion of English bullshit and tradition etc and of course I would have the double. There is just no other country who can do that so well.

However I would need my separate all out accuracy rifles in the same calibers and for that to be achieved you need a rifle that can be worked on without fear or have a lot shots put through it etc.

The Miller combines both name and accuracy but like all packages there are compromises in each department.

A few years ago I went very close to ordering an H&H in 375 but the price is extremely high once you start to add some exorbitant extras like nice wood, scope mounts and a recoil pad! The problem is that the cost is very high for what amounts to their crappy product.

Miller's rifle is the top end of his products which does make it far more attractive for us shooters who are not multi multi millioniares (which of course is our own fault) but because it lacks the name, tradition etc.it then has to stand simply on its merrits as a rifle. In my opinion it is vastly overpriced when all things are considered.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 11-02-2001).]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

There is no such thing as THE BEST RIFLE IN THE WORLD.

We saw an advert for Jarrett Rifles in one of the magazine in our hunting camp, and Kenny was saying something like "people come to me and tell me they use my rifles to shoot elk off hand at 395 yards, duikers at 400 yards and....at 700 yards"

One of our PH said: "What a load of bloody rubish! I can't even SEE a duiker at that distance, let alone shoot the bloody thing!"

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed,

I want to put you on the spot, as you are a diplomat by nature.

Do you feel if you had a David Miller rifle you would see gains in accuracy as compared to what you put together over there

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 11-02-2001).]

Mike,

Absolutely not!

I build the best rifles in the world - for myself! And no gunsmith, living or dead can beat that

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

I'm with Saeed, there is no best rifle in the world, hopefully !!!

I mean, if this piece existed, we would have ONE rifle only, and we would all have the same !!!

Nightmare, it would be.

Don't you have a wife to convince that you NEED another firestick ? Isn't it part of the fun, to look for a piece that will suit you, and use it as much as possible ?

My best toy is now a ruger in 350RM, but I am sure I will enjoy my blaser attach�, with its compactness, lightness, is gorgeous wood, fluted barrel, and so on.
In any case, my 350 will stay just in case. And I will use it again for sure !

And then, I have no African rifle - I need a 416 rigby, I just hesitate between a Johanssen and a Heym big bore.

olivier

Johnny Holmes, you are not the most well-liked person here, but I enjoy everything you post because it is so slanderous and sacrastically humourous. I think you are quite persistant, and indeed, a funny voice on this forum, regardless of what others think of you. I still liked Allen's "up from nothing--into something" speech.

350RM--those rifles you mentioned are nice. For me, I think it would be the Johanssen Classic (a true classic) But, have you looked at Dumoulin rifles? I think it's www.dumoulin-herstal.com. I'm not sure, but I heard they were French, so you may have already checked them out. But I guess, for the money, they're an exceptional buy. And they have lots of options, plus they look nice, at east to me. (and even Boddington has/or has hunted with one..refer to "Where Lions Roar."

Tot ziens boys

jagermiester,
the Dumoulin rifles are special, in a way that I have one at home and it cannot compare with either the Heim or the Johanssen. Sure, the action is smooth, but the action used is clearly WWII built.
I have seen another Dumoulin (Belgian, by the way) with octagonal barrel and heavy engraving. Again, very nice but mechanically under the reimer johanssen...
olivier

I don't understand where Jarrett gets his business. Sure his rifles are accurate, but they are just a tuned up Rem 700, and Rem 700's will usually shoot 1/2 out of the box. That's accurate enough to hit a duiker at 500 yards assuming everything else is perfect, there is no mirage, etc etc etc. So what do I get for $3500?

Come on now!!! This forum has some very smart, articulate minds, and this thread has reduced this particular topic to the realm of potty mouthed sixth graders. It's just a conversation that's not worth blowing up over. There are so many of you that I respect here and value your advice and opinions, that I hate to see this kind of crap!!! This is the reason that I left Talk Shooters and Hunt America because everybody ended up bitching! Remember that we are here because we all share the same interests, so even if we disagree sometimes how different can we really be? We can all agree that Shooting and Guns especially big bores is about the best damn hobbie ( passion) that is out there! As for H&H vs. Miller, I'll take one of each please. PLAY NICE!!!!!

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JR

Sorry for the triple post, I was having some technical difficulties. Take it easy!!!

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JR

Allen:

Excellent and well thought out replies to
an imbecile are indeed a sign of a great
man. Keep it up, he only needs a little
more rope!

Here is some shameless self promotion in
the hope that I can get abused as well!!

www.prairiegunworks.com

Ross

350RM,
I actually have no experience with the Dumoulin rifles, but have heard that for the money they are a decent buy. I like the Heym, but I think I'd go Johanssen..which is what you seem to be favouring. I'm not informaed as to costs for Heym, but what would a decent grade bolt gun run? I think the Johanssen was about 9-10K when I last checked.

Hey, all you Users-of-custom rifles,

May someone please post a few pictures of David Miller rifles for us ignorant ones .

Reading this thread from start to end has fueled my desire to view a David Miller rifle. By the way I have seen some Hollands .

My my, All this hate and discontent over rifles that most of us can only drool over anyway. Someone mentioned Mark Silver. I saw one of his rifles at an NRA converntion in Phoenix, AZ, back in 1982. He offered it to me for $2,800. If this poor boy had had the money, he'd own it today and dump most of the rifles he does have. For the curious, if you have a copy of Riflr Magazine #87 May-June 1983, you can see that rifle on the top of page 29.
Comparing the difference between stock on British vs American classics, I have no clue.
But I can give a comparison between two American rilfes of the same make with the drop on one being greater than the other. I have two Winchester model 94's, one made either at the tail end of 1910 or the beginning of 1911, the other in 1979-80. The never one has at least a half inch less drop to the stock, compared to the older model. The newer one has less apparent recoil, but the sights line up faster on the older one with the greater drop. The older one does feel like the recoil is greater, yet the weight of the two rifles is only different by a few ounces. (The older one is the heavier.)
While the workmanship on a Dave Miller rifle is impeccable, I feel they are a bit out of line. I realize that the building of one of his classic rifles is extremely labor intensive and each one a work of art. I have seen samples of his work, and find no fault.
Like Ray though, I kind of lean toward the pre-war Mausers and H&H styles. They just look "right" to me. I don't have too much respect for a pre-64 Model 70 either. Somehow, I feel that, to use Ray's terms, Jack O'Connor pimped for, just to get his free guns. Frankly, I much prefer the Mauser 98's.
I would dearly love to own a .375 H&H by H&H, but unless I win the lottery or something, that'll probably never happen.
I kind of like they way Elmer Keith once said it. "I prefer to let each man scratch is own fleas in his own way."
Paul B.

Jagermeister,
Since nobody answered you on your question, "A pot calling the kettle black" I will attempt to explain it.

In the days that this saying was coined both the cook "pot" and the "kettle" hung in the fireplace therefore they we both black.

Put simply it means that one stupid person shouldn't call another person stupid. Similar to "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones".

I hope that I have answered your question correctly.

Now, what does "Tot ziens" stand for? Is it Austrian dialect? If so don't explain as I know then what it means.

Herb-

I will atempt to explain tot ziens- its Dutch for good bye or see ya later. More of an informal speech then formal or proper. Not quite slang but more of a use between friends and family.

Thanks Buell!

Just for the record,and to really cause a disaster, I paid $950. for my 375 H&H Deluxe a couple of months ago, so I guess I'm out of the thread with my cheapo H&H....albiet it was in a state of ruin, but by this time next summer it will look like it came off the shelf in 1920, with a little luck, although it may be an example of Grandads Axe, two new heads and 3 new handles later it's as good as new...well not really, but perhaps close...At some point it should fetch $10,000. or there abouts even rebuilt, but I won't sell this one, as I could never replace it for the kind of money I'll have in it...With it I have the best of both worlds.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

$500 for an action
$500 for a barrell
$500 for a stock
$500 for a scope
$500 for a respectable gunsmith

You should have a pretty good custom rifle by any standards.

Good shooting

Well with out a doubt the proper order in terms of quality is redhead, brunette, blonde, light brunette, then dark blonde.

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Ladies and Gentlemen,

May be you should spare a thought for us here when it comes to what we have to pay for a rifle.

First there are no gunshops one can purchase anything from - except an air rifle.

We get a few rifles being sold by individuals, and the prices are pretty stable.

A BRNO 452 .22 Rim Fire costs over US$800.
A Sako S491 .223 goes for over US$2,700.

.308 Winchester ammo costs US$ 1.36 per round.

.22 Rimfire ammo costs about US$19.00 per box of 50.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed, just how DO you acquire your guns in the UAA? How restricted is gun ownership in your country?

AD

Allen,

It is really very simple. By law we are allowed to own guns. But the stipulation is that we need a permit from the police. This permit is very difficult to come by, so no one bothers about it any more.

I would imagine a high percentage of household have guns in them.

When we want to get a firearm, we apply for an Import Permit. Again, this can take a day or a year to obtain.

Our next door neighbor, Oman, has some gun shops, and one does not need any permit to purchase them. So what happens is a lot of people from here go over to Oman, buy what they want and bring it back into the country, and try to flog them at a profit. Only problem is there is not so much of a choice there, hence my mention of the BRNO 22s and the Sakos in 223.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed,

How do you bring powder over and also primers.

Mike

I think that this kind of sandbox battle is getting out of hand. There are nomerous of riflemakers/companys who make rifles that attract different kinds of people. The discussion weather one is "better" than the other is not fair, everyone has their "best gun".

I find it quite hard to see why you should pay alot of money for a rifle built on remington, sako or winchester when you can get "true custom" made for the same money.