The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Browning BLR bbl specs/what take offs? Plus Y Gun Co's go BankruptGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Does anybody know the bbl thread and shank specs for a Browning BLR? What take offs would work? Looking thinking about doing a 375 Ruger on one. And for your entertainment, why US gun Co's go bankrupt...cause they don't think. I call Browning, get Customer Service. Me: What are the bbl thread specs and shank diameter for a BLR? Brwng Cust Svc Rep: Can't tell you it's proprietary. Me: You are saying it's a trade secret? Brwng Cust Svc Rep: Yes Me: Who set that policy? Brwng Cust Svc Rep: The Vice President of Mfg Me: So how will my gunsmith know how to thread the bbl if I want to re-barrel? Brwng Cust Svc Rep: If he is a qualified gunsmith, he will know what to do. Me: How many qualified gunsmiths in the US...what do you think a 100 in every state...say 5000 in the US. Brwng Cust Svc Rep: I guess, but what is your point. Me: Well, so you are saying a qualified gunsmith will pull the bbl off, about 10 minutes worth of work. Then he will know what to do cause he is going to know how to measure the threads with one of them fancy machinist gizmos. Brwng Cust Svc Rep: Yes, that's right Me: Probably take him 5 minutes to measure it, right? Brwng Cust Svc Rep: about that Me: So let me see if I got this right. 5000 people in the US can determine the proper shank diameter and thread specification in 15 minutes...AND YOU THINK THAT INFORMATION IS A SECRET? Brwng Cust Svc Rep: Yes Me: You know why US gun companies are always going bankrupt? Brwng Cust Svc Rep: Not really Me: Cause they same moron who is the VP of Mfg who makes stupid decisions like that, is making lots of other decisions Brwng Cust Svc Rep: [Silence] Me: Have a nice day Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Very few businesses will share the engineering specifications used to manufacture their products. | |||
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Ireload2, I would hardly call bbl shank diameter and thread specication an "enginnering specification". If I had asked Rockwell hardness on their steel? Maximum PSI they test their actions to I can understand that. But to declare something proprietary that thousands of people can figure out is poor customer service and moronic Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Well like it or not it is an engineering specification. When the gunsmith measures it he does not get the tolerances. All he gets is the numbers for that one barrel. You do not know if all BLRS have that thread. Call every major gun company on the planet and I doubt that a single one will give you the spccifications of their barrel threads. The very fact that it is their product design makes the design their intellectual property. A well equipped machine shop can easliy test the Rockwell hardness but again it does not tell you the range of hardness permitted. It also does not tell you if that particular part is in specification. | |||
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You know...Oh never mind... However, for your education you may wish to research the term intellectual property because intellectual property and confidential information are two very different items. You may also want to read a 1/2 dozen commercial contracts and carefully read the definiton of confidential information and the exclusions of what can be considered confidential information such as: "Confidential Informations shall not include any information which is developed independently by the non disclosing party." "Confiential information shall not include any information which is or has becom public knowledge through no fault of the non disclosing party" And just because every major gun company has the same policy...doesn't mean it is an intelligent policy. I also would bet if I called 20 gunsmiths I could get the barrel thread specification for every major rifle on the planet. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Just because you do not like it does not mean it is not an engineering specification. Just because you do not like it does not mean it is not an intelligent policy. How many gunsmiths have any credential that requires competency to protect the public? | |||
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Wow guys... Okay, the barrel thread on a rifle, if it can be replaced, is a product DESIGN spec. The tolerances are the engineering spec. class 1, 2, 2a, 3, etc... it's in the machinist handbook. NO "v" pattern 60deg single point thread can even REMOTELY be considered a secert. BUT, and here's the deal... just about ANYONE with a lathe, or a splitring threading die can make a fit up to 2a or 3.. Did browning call it a +1-0, or a +0-1, or a +/-2 (in .000) ? that part is there engineering spec... that it's a (making this up) 1" 16 TPI? that's measurable, and recalitrant to not deliver. I work in technology... heh, (understatment) .. and EVERYONE has to follow engineering spec, or their product gets left out. EVERYONE has to follow standards (convert to thread pitch) or their products get left out... but NO ONE cares how they do it internally, other than a couple geeks like me. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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FWIW anything on a drawing is an engineering spec.....such as 1"-16 UNC-2A.....the specifics of this spec are fouind in the machinery's handbook as Jeffe said.......and any smith can reproduce this in an engine lathe and determine the basic spec in a minute or two with a calipers and a thread pitch gage. I'd agree that most company's engineering specs are confidential but in this case to not state the thread on a barrel is rediculous as it's so easily discovered. Such things as the material....such as AISI 4140 harden and draw to Rc36-40 is an engineering spec as well.....and confidential. How does a company say Engineering specs are confidential and then say except the following..... it just don't end. Reverse engineering isn't new and is actually quite easy for most smiths as they do closer tolerance work than the factory originals....many smith make parts to "match" because thgey don't have a print.....they also have a pretty good idea of what materials to use for the application. I understand Browning not giving out the barrel thread size as.....where does one draw the line! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Mr. Dettorre, I was just curious as to why you called Browning to get this information and why you are obviously so upset and angry about their refusal to give it to you since you clearly stated that the information is very easily obtained and is already possibly known by thousands of gunsmiths all over the country? In another post on here I noticed that you were asking advice on how to cut a wrench in half so I assume that you did not plan on doing any of the threading or work on this propsed rifle yourself anyway, so what exactly did you plan on doing with the information had you gotten it from Browning? | |||
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fyj, he was hunting down information to give to his gunsmith and to see if any barrels would even be "cut off the threads" interchangable. he called me, and I told him there wasn't any. upset and angry? more like annoyed at human stupidity.. heh, I got the call right after he talked to the guy, and trust me, he was MORE amused at the guys' position than angry at not getting the data. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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fyj, First of all please call me Mike. Upset...no. Very disapponted in what I genuinely feel is idiotic behavior based upon blanket policies that have not been thought through, absolutely. I am a management consultant by trade as well as a contract negotiatior. One of the biggest disappoints of American business (in my view) is that corporate America has created an environment where we discourage employees from thinking. For example when I was at AT&T, I was responsible for $83 million in sales for 20 very large customers with 15 sales people and 3 support staff. I had to get approval to spend $500 on technical books for my team. That is a pathetic policy. That means my sales quota was a $157 a minute. When I was at Deloitte Consulting, I ran projects that were over a $1 million dollars in consulting fees. I had (or was supposed to) get approval to fly a staff memeber home 1st class becuase it was the only seat available to get her home because her father had suddenly taken ill and was not expected to live. Corporate America (and I have consulted for approximately 40 of the Fortune 250) generally believes in replacing the employees obligation to think with a process. In other words, we keep trying to solve people issues (meaning good judgement) with a process (don't quote anything remotley looking like a specification). As far as whether or not I would do the work myself...I readily admit I have no craftsman skills...I do have an insatiable thirst for knowledge and the desire to to try and do things very efficiently. For example, maybe i want to know if I can use a Winchester 375 HH take off barrel that I can get for maybe a $100 as opposed to paying $180 for a new barrel. Many people go through life with no desire to expand their knowledge unless the topic is in there immediate realm. I am not one of those people. I will probably never travel to Russia that doesn't mean I am not interested in its history. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Okay, Mike! I guess I was just confused that you felt it necessary to call Browning when, as you and others have said, the information is easily gotten and known by thousands of gunsmiths. If you’ve ever called Remington with a question you will find that just about everything except for their phone number is considered proprietary and that decision is made by the corporations legal department. Perhaps the way American businesses operate is in direct proportion to the number of American trial lawyers prowling around and the American publics penchant for filing ridiculous law suits. If you’re a contract negotiator you should have been able to talk the guy into telling you what you wanted to know.  | |||
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fyj, Couple things...I work with lawyers almost every day and most of them are incredibly reasonable people. Corporate lawyers in my view are not to blame...even trial lawyers are not to blame. Most corporate lawyers give sound advice that is very often mis-interpreted. Amercian juries are probably more to blame...we all know the stories of the juries awarding ridiculous sums for like the McDonald's coffee spill. I didn't bother negotiating with the gentleman...I have a rule to not negotiate with those that are intellectually impaired or not able to say "yes." Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike, Please forgive me but I just have to ask the obvious question based on everything you have said. Are you still going to buy the Browning rifle to use for your project? | |||
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fyj, Not sure...I need another rifle like a hole in the head. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Browning BLR bbl specs/what take offs? Plus Y Gun Co's go Bankrupt
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