schromf,
I think your idea has merit in theory, but in reality, I do not think it will ever get off the ground. The real downside is that a large number of the good gunsmiths and folks like Dennis Olsen have a good following and will not need or have the time to join and go through the qualifications. So the good ones don't need it and the bad ones won't join because they would be relatively sure they can't pass the muster.

I am relatively sure the ACGG would not wish to be involved in running it or establishing it. I certainly would be opposed to the guild taking it on. In regards to the guild the following is in essence their mission statement. "The purpose was to create a viable association of craftspeople actively engaged in custom gunmaking (stockmaking, metalsmithing and related areas) for the exchange of ideas, views, techniques, to increase public awareness and appreciation for fine quality custom firearms and to generally advance custom gunmaking as an accepted art form." The ACGG is run on a part time basis the Executive Director who has another job during the year. The guild has a full plate just keeping their plans and annual meeting going.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
There is a simple problem with all of this, and which has been totally ignored. Most gunowners are unwilling to pay for quality work, and hence get exactly what they are willing to pay for, though far short of what they expect.

It's like complaining about the quality of chi-com goods at walmart when the truth is you could have had a quality product if you'd been willing to pay for it.

I've dealt with a multitude of quality and trade organizations, ISO, NICET, etc and none of them gurantee quality. All they do is raise the price without raising quality and add paperwork. The only way to get top people is to be willing to pay for the good ones, and fire the bad ones.

I used a highly recommended local smith with 20+ years experience to smooth a model 70 trigger and set it between 3 1/2 and 4#, with my preference closer to 4#.

$85.00 later I picked up a rifle with a trigger pull of under 3# that fires if you drop it butt first on a carpeted floor from 10".

How much $$$ do I have to pay to get quality work?

$$$$ does NOT translate into quality.


I know of another smith that is highly praised on another board, yet butchered a pistol of a close friend and did nothing to resolve the situation.

Furthermore, dare I mention Jack Belk?

Rick 0311, the AMA (primarily a lobbying org)is a poor example, the state board of medical examiners is a much better one. They yank licenses from docs for both ethical and technical problems. Not perfect, but a step in the right direction.

Any reference or comparison to lawyers and ethics is a fool's errand

The idea of some sort of ethical standard and technical standard for gunsmiths is a wonderful idea, but the devil is in the details.

I agree with Duckear: price doesn't predict quality, although in the aggregate the two are often associated.

I have paid out the nose for good work, and gotten a crappy job.

I have been charged WELL under what I though work was worth, and gotten more than I thought was fair.

I am hitting about 50-50 by word of mouth whether a gunsmith is good. The good news is that I have had work done by so many 'smiths that I know who does what and how well.

Garrett

P.S. I am the friend Duckear mentioned who had his pistol butchered by the (still) well known gunsmith. The only way I finally got it back (in pieces) was I threatened to call the BATF and report it stolen. I think giving him 18 months for a job that would take "2 months" was reasonable on my part. Wish the pistol worked though.

Customsox,

Thanks for the insight. I can and do appreciate why the quild wouldn't want the headache. It would require an amendment to their charter, which is outside their scope.

Problem is that without the input from the guild membership its DOA. They are the largest respository of the knowledge, although I expect if it ever got off the ground that certain corporations would contribute, maybe not large sums of cash but enginnering expertise, and corporate conference rooms with infrastructure resources, coupled will small infusions of dollars would certainly make this more viable.

I also think any discussions of qualification at this point is way premature, and I mean literally by a decade. Discussions toward that goal need to be only addressed in the charter mandate at this point, so their is flexibility to work on that problem later. Right now there are no standards, so any talk about qualifications is a waste of time at this point, because the foundation needs to layed. Simply qualified to what? And there is the fundamental blank.

I have previously stated that I am not the most political of charactors, and this would get right into that arena. A suppose a sister organization to the guild would be a god start. Organizations that would need to be either on board with or supporting should include:

1. Saami
2. Gunsmiths Guild
3. NRA
4. gun trade schools
5. support from the ammuntion manufacuters
6. industry experts
7. Manufactures

I must be a cooperative effort to succeed, and yes basic human nature must be addressed, mainly: What's in this for me? Which firmly puts this in the devil is in the details camp.

It just too bad that all this independent knowledge base is concentrated in individuals. Humans are mortal after all and the loss of single individuals happens every year, which means loss to the trade in general.

An non gun related example of this is related to the story of the USS Cole. After this incident the US Navy looked into the armor plating that was used on the US battleships in WWII. Two items became immediatly apparent, first was a weight penatly which wasn't insurmountable, the second was that we no longer have the capability to produce it, the expertise to build it was a trades item, passed from journeymen training apprentices. After WWII the need went away, no living indivuals retained the knowledge and the study found it would take 10 years to reinvent the wheel. The concept was scrubbed as not cost effective and practicle , and it now resides in the mystery's of the past.

My concept starts a process that the true masters of this trade, can pass knowledge to the next generation of future gunsmiths. In concept that is the primary purpose, there would be secondary benefits downstream, but thats futuristic goals.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:

Rick 0311, the AMA (primarily a lobbying org)is a poor example, the state board of medical examiners is a much better one. They yank licenses from docs for both ethical and technical problems. Not perfect, but a step in the right direction.

Any reference or comparison to lawyers and ethics is a fool's errand

I guess my “tongue in cheek†statement was missed. My point was that Guilds, associations, etc. are hardly any guarantee of quality or ethics.

I have a huge picture in my mind of the major firearms manufacturers being associated with, or supporting, a guild whose members exist because people are not pleased with what the factories are turning out.

Rick,

Yes thats certainly an issue, but in my indusrty we have been able to keep the big corporations from dominating the standards process. Simply we are indepentent in nature and the manufacurers have input, but don't run the show. The gun industry has that element of indepentness also and I don't see that as a big issue.

Yes its a fine line that needs to walked, but this is resolvable.

Again resovling issues is the cart before the horse, definaition of standards is a start. 10 years to get that established is a reasonable timeline. Taking this further than that at this juncture is pointless. Again there is no foundation to build on.

Based on some members of this site, the apprenticeship “programs†seem to be alive and doing well. If I recall a young man, apprenticing under D’Arcy Echols, has posted on here several times, and a good number of the people responding gave the poor guy a bad time and started one of the biggest debates appearing on this site all year. So much for “wide acceptance“ from the consuming public!

I also know from conversations with some of the custom builders that they get inquiries almost daily from people wanting to apprentice with them and learn the trade.

All of this “standards†stuff sounds really neat...but I am not so sure if the “need†is real or just perceived.

I think the idea has considerable merit. You wouldn't need to set up an entirely new structure (unless existing ones chose not to employ it).

The first step financial planners, for instance, might do is set up a Standards and Practices Committee to determine what constitutes quality and how you can achieve it. (There's more than one way to get a good finished product.) You license nothing more than the "Seal of Approval" you plan to award, by whatever name.

You might want to start with something simple, like recoil pad installation. Define what's a good installation. Initially let anyone who installs this defined-quality pad advertize "Installed to American Gunsmith Whatever Standards." Add standards. Add approaches to get to the standards. Add submittal of examples. Add mandatory membership to use the seal. If there's a demand for an oversight product, then it'll work. If not, not.

It's a lengthy process, but one that lots of organizations have undergone. It's like the old story of "How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?" question. ("A psychiatrist can't change a lightbulb - the lightbulb has to want to change itself.")

Gunsmiths have to want to change.

Jaywalker

Rick,

I get the feeling I am preaching to the unwilling and unconvertable.

At this juncture if you can provide me a single source of a reference design on a Mauser 98, I'll pick this back up. I am not going to spend the effort cause I know it doesn't exist. Don't bother citing Bolt Action Rifles by De Haas, its not a reference design, its simply a dicussion of merits and drawbacks and you couldn't build anything from it.

If I was looking to get the above data I would start with Alf, and I am not sure he would have all that is required for a refence design, it would be a good start though. And this is a very small part of the overall picture.

quote:

Gunsmiths have to want to change.

True statement, and there needs to be benefit for them to do so. Certainly part of the problem but a standards and information foundation, that is a reasonable resource to them is a good start.

if there was simply a glossary of definitions of terms. I started a thread of definitions of heat treating terms and I thought it was somewhat well received as there is a truly great amount of confusion regarding the subject on the Mausers. At least some of this is the result of poor definition of terms....one person says black and the other person hears orange...or something.

There's so much that can be done and cheaply and no one looses anything.

In effect SAAMI is one such organization. It's a standards organization that does no regulating at all. Without SAAMI this industry would be far worse off IMO...

The more I look at this issue the more it has credibility.

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:
Rick,

I get the feeling I am preaching to the unwilling and unconvertable.

At this juncture if you can provide me a single source of a reference design on a Mauser 98, I'll pick this back up. I am not going to spend the effort cause I know it doesn't exist. Don't bother citing Bolt Action Rifles by De Haas, its not a reference design, its simply a dicussion of merits and drawbacks and you couldn't build anything from it.

If I was looking to get the above data I would start with Alf, and I am not sure he would have all that is required for a refence design, it would be a good start though. And this is a very small part of the overall picture.

Schromf-

Some of us do support what you are suggesting. It is just that this may not be the best forum to develop or gain support for the idea.

As to the facts/knowledge you envision for standards, take heart, they ARE out there. Obviously it would take time and effort to gather them together into a common data base, but didn't some astute fella once say something like "Rome wasn't built in a day."?

Taking your Mauser example, Jerry Kuhnhausen's book "The Mauser M91 Through M98 Bolt Actions - A Shop Manual" has many of the very items you are asking about, such things as the distance an extractor claw should protrude inward, the angle of the "bite" of that extractor, and so on... It covers similar specs for most of the parts of those actions. True, it doesn't give heat treating procedures and that sort of thing, but it is only one book.

Anyway, for the future use of the "certified gun repairer" that I mentioned earlier, that sort of info does exist if a person or organization wants to look for it. It would need to be gathered together, put in a common reference structure, and edited carefully to minimize the size of the reference for reading ease.

For the gun designer, equally good info is available, but the best sources of it are likely in a few engineering schools and the archives of some of the larger gun manufacturers. Would therefore likely be harder to come by...but perhaps not, depending on the body looking for the info and the reason for the inquiry.

Maybe the S.H.O.T. Show or the NRA convention might be a place to try sounding the idea out a bit further.

quote:

A few of us do support what you are suggesting. It is just that this may not be the best forum to develop or gain support for the idea.

As to the facts/knowledge you envision for standards, take heart, they ARE out there. Obviously it would take time and effort to gather them together into a data base, but didn't some astute fella once say something like "Rome wasn't built in a day."?

Oh I am sure the data is out there, just squirreled away in pockets and not readily accessble.

Point taken on this forum, it was clearly evident this is a popular here as passing gas in church.

A Saami type organization is exactly what I had in mind, I started this thread at work with not enough time to get properly present the concept, its been defense of the idea ever since.

This is an unabashed plug for Jerry Kuhnhausen's whole series of "Shop Manuals"...he has written similar texts for all kinds of guns other than the Mauser...I think including Ruger Pistols, Remington Rifles, and a whole bunch of others. Brownell's is a good source of them all.

(P.S., I don't know Jerry, and have nothing to do with the publishing or selling of his works. I just find them to be invaluable sources of accurate information on how various firearms are designed to work, what their parts dimensions are, and tricks of fitting them together properly for good safe functioning.)

I have his manual on the 1911. Yes its a great reference source. Its not source reference drawings mind you but its an excellent resource. Actually I am on line right looking at them, Brownells sells most of them by the looks of it.

Just as a thought... If you do pursue this farther in other environs, a useful selling point might be:

If the standards organization could compile an easily accessible compendium of info similar to Jerry's books, access to that info, by itself, might be a good reason for gunsmiths to join/support the organization. What a handy source to have when something comes in the door to be worked on and you know which part(s) is (are) failing, but don't know exactly if the dimensions/installation are up to snuff!!

I have all of Kuhnhausen’s books and find them extremely helpful. Another really helpful set of books that give size specs for just about every part of a rifle, are those from North Cape Publications. They don’t have one on Mauser’s (yet) but they have one for just about every other military rifle you can think of.

I’m not totally against such an idea, but like others, I am not so certain that it is practical in the real, and very competitive, world out there.

Most firearms factories (actually all of them) consider just about anything beyond their phone number as “secret†proprietary information that they refuse to give out.

quote:

Most firearms factories (actually all of them) consider just about anything beyond their phone number as “secret†proprietary information that they refuse to give out.

Yep, until they sell, reorg, or go bankrupt then its for the historians to try to salvage the records.

BTW, on a subject we can agree on how is your son doing? Isn''t he due home soon?

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:

quote:

Most firearms factories (actually all of them) consider just about anything beyond their phone number as “secret†proprietary information that they refuse to give out.

Yep, until they sell, reorg, or go bankrupt then its for the historians to try to salvage the records.

BTW, on a subject we can agree on how is your son doing? Isn''t he due home soon?

We don’t really disagree on this subject, just perhaps on its practicality.

PM sent on the other topic.

From my relatively short time in the gunsmithing trade I have come to one major conclusion. Gunsmiths as a breed are some of the most independent, contrarian, iconoclastic individuals I have ever known (and I consider myself all of the above). Getting a group of gunsmiths to agree on something of this magnitude would be at best difficult and at the worst impossible. I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade, and I believe that the shooting public needs to be protected from neandersmiths who everday do shoddy work which jeopardizes wallets and sometimes lives. I just think it is one of those concepts that works in theory, but not in practice, kind of like communism.

Brian Bingham

quote:

Most firearms factories (actually all of them) consider just about anything beyond their phone number as “secret†proprietary information that they refuse to give out.

Yes, that's one of the reasons I tried to tilt this thread away from "gun designers/makers" and more toward gun repairers.

No big factory (or would-be big factory) wants to give information to product liability lawyers or prospective competition. Still, they do give info to organizations such as SAAMI, NSSF, and the NRA technical staff.

I suspect that given a not-for-profit, non-competitive standards institute, where the factories were helping establish the standards, and which would have as its raison d'etre the betterment of the trade and shooting safety, the factories & owner corporations involved would find it useful to cooperate.

One thing for certain, it will never fly if never tried.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
There is a simple problem with all of this, and which has been totally ignored. Most gunowners are unwilling to pay for quality work, and hence get exactly what they are willing to pay for, though far short of what they expect.

My old man told me "you get what you pay for, if you are lucky"


Gun making (even repairing) is more "art" or practice (like law or doctors) than anything that can be placed in an RFC.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Based on some members of this site, the apprenticeship “programs†seem to be alive and doing well. If I recall a young man, apprenticing under D’Arcy Echols, has posted on here several times, and a good number of the people responding gave the poor guy a bad time and started one of the biggest debates appearing on this site all year. So much for “wide acceptance“ from the consuming public! ...

Hey Rick, I believe you have somehow managed to slightly scramble your memory of that post. I really don't believe anyone gave "Brian Bingham" (who posted as "XL Bar") a hard time for providing excellent information concerning Mr. Echols rifles.

If you care to look back at how the loud-mouth blow-hard braggart and his merry band of stooges made complete fools of themselves, look right here:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp...1043/m/317106703/p/1

Page two is where the loud-mouth blow-hard braggart "Trashes ALL OTHER GunSmiths" and indicates their Customers are just idiots.

But, nowhere that I can see did anyone give Brian a hard time about his excellent Report.
---

The "Gunsmiths seal of approval" is an interesting idea, but I do believe it would be more useful to us if it was a GunSmiths Customer Satisfaction Listing.

The problem as I see it is you have various kinds of GunSmiths performing completely different types of Services. They may be just excellent at providing one Service and just don't have the ability for others.

For example you might know a local guy who can Polish and Set a Trigger to perfection for $30, but isn't an Engraver. It should not make him thought of as "Bad" because he doesn't do Engraving, nor "Great" because he can do a Trigger.

It seems you would need some Skill Levels like:

1. General Repairs.
2. Barrel Chambering, Steel Coatings and Stocking.
3. Blue Printing factory rifles.
4. Custom from the ground up.

Some GunSmiths provide what the Customer wants and others simply make what the GunSmith wants to build. Totally different philosophies that serve completely different groups of buyers.

HotCore,

You’re probably correct...about all I recall of the thread is that the poor guy started out all excited about sharing his experiences working with a master gunsmith and the next thing everyone is taking potshots at anything and everything in sight.

I guess what I was trying to say is that rather than discussing the virtues of the apprentice system everyone (myself included) got off on the actual dollar value of custom work and what was worth what.

I see the same type of response happening if someone were to try and start up what has been suggested. Far too many personalities and prejudices involved, IMO.

It’s interesting to note that the particular gunsmith that was the focus of that post does not belong to the ACGG, and I am sure there are other incredible smiths that also don’t.

Hey Rick, Yes, if you go back to that thread to just read the start of Brian's thread , it is just as you remember. His choice of words shared his excitement very well.

Come to think of it, I've not seen Brian post since. Darn shame because he was providing absolutely excellent info about how Mr. Echols goes about building his rifles. Darn shame to loose that input.

I found it refreshing that he was able to make his posts on what he had learned from Mr. Echols by relating his first-hand experience with so much enthusiasm.

AND, he didn't feel the need to Trash any other GunSmiths.
---

I'm glad that Guild exists because it will keep alive the true "Art" portion of the firearms industry. I really enjoy how pretty some of those extremely talented folks can make a firearm.

Just not something for "me" to hunt with, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate what they can do. I find it strange though when people try to justify hunting with "Art". Apparently their hunting methods and mine are just totally different.

There are two things that would be required for this to work, a set of standards being established, and a means of assuring that gunsmiths, and manufacturers, follow these standards.

Let's say a set of standards are developed, we already have SAAMI for chambers, but then we have a whole slew of other dimensions, and triggers. It takes time to establish such standards, and nobody works for free, so who pays to generate them? Only the major manufacturers could afford to fund such a body, and thus the standards generated would be such that it doesn't improve the quality of the product, or worse yet, it makes it impossible for the little guys to survive.

Now, lets say these standards are developed without wiping out the custom gun trade. Are customers really willing to pay a premium for service provided by a shop has gone through the quality program and is current with it?

The only companies that produce quality products and services are those that choose to do so as a good business practice. There is no indepent or government agency that has ever made a company that produces shoddy products produce good ones.

The real question should be, how could an accurate rating of gunsmith shops be established, that would provide useful information and not get the person or entity creating the list sued for libel/slander.

Ok schromf I’ll make this short and sweet. If those of us that make and repair guns full time for a living. Who have went to school! Who have taken most if not all of the factory warranty classes? Would you pay us the same $60.00 per hour that you pay your auto mechanic? Or would you just go to the guy next door that happens to be kinda handy? We have already bent over backwards for you and you don’t want to pay us so why would we want to bend farther to join some phony guild? If someone is willing to pay for good work they will get good work. I’m sick of whiners! Rod Henrickson

Just a stray thought or two...

Industry or trade standards are fine, SAAMI is a good example. Government intervention will not help in this regard, in fact it helps little in any circumstance involving regulation. The issues are best dealt with internally, and by market forces. Part of the problem as I see it is that too many folks do NOT do a little research about to whom they are sending their dreams.

The upside of Gubmint regulation is that their are already 200 million guns in circulation.

Got Tea?

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
Ok schromf I’ll make this short and sweet. If those of us that make and repair guns full time for a living. Who have went to school
Rod Henrickson

Who have WENT to school??????? Obviously, not one that taught English!

quote:

Would you pay us the same $60.00 per hour that you pay your auto mechanic

Ok Spearchucker let me get this straight I do a lot of machine work, I doubt any of you mickey mouse smiths do near the volume of machine parts I normally do at work, unless your Remington, WInchester or CZ.

If I see a machine shop rate under $50 a hour, I immedaitly flag it, I don't expect machinists or gunsmiths to work for free. I demand quality at work, do my homework, will reject a part in a heartbeat if its out of tolerance, and have personally pulled three machine shops off my qualified vendors list in the last 18 months. I don't give my customers excuses, and I don't expect them from my vendors. I am the absolute last person my vendors want to talk to, I have staff that handle routine stuff, when I need to get on the phone and straighten out issues I am the devil incarnate, I take no prisors or shit, if your late on deleveries or out of spec I am the worst SOB you ever had as a customer, and I will cut off a 1/4 million dollar PO in a heartbeat. My vendors HATE getting me on the phone!!!!!!!!!! Unless I am asking on quotes or cutting PO's, yes they all take my calls.

For putting up with my anal German personality, I don't expect quality for nothing, and low dollar means nothing in my products. I have never had a made in China-Walmart mentality, My customers pay top dollar, and I take great personal pride in the products I design and produce.

I am one of a very few Americans that have NEVER even been in a Walmart, and I can make few future predictions but I can reasonably say they are going to bury me and I won't break that rule.

In short I pay for the quality I expect, and raise hell when I don't get it. I also don't shop for smiths, I know who I will use, pick up the phone bullshit with a friend, and then tell them I will drop of my project the next time I see them. And actually bitch at both my full time smiths cause I see them doing non profitable work and charging chump change. And yes I have told my smiths that they are charging too little. Again I work with friends that once they have quoted it aren't going to change the price, from me I return customer loyality, I spend a far chunk of change through them and don't bitch if they are $20 too high on a rifle ( which is very seldom). I am a difficult customer but very loyal.

I also am very busy, I don't have a lot of spare time available, I simply can't babysit projects. I spend the time in the beginning with very specific instructions, no gray areas. Its the engineer in me, I know how to write a detailed spec sheet, and it is not unusual for me to need to write a 30 page specification document, with anal details. Who pays for this, my customer base is DOD. One program I work on is the Phalanx gun, you should see the spec sheet and qualifications on the barrels on those gattlings. No gray areas, detailed specifications, with exact tolerances and rigourous QA.

There are procceses in place that can improve the gun industry, some are truelly too expensive for the average consumer, I am aware, but many are no cost options.

Spearchucker in a short answer, yes I will pay for quality, and won't pay for crap.

Ha Ha Rick. The guy next door could have checked my spelling for me for next to nothing. You know him! He is the same guy that does your gun work !!!!!!!!!!!! Rod

Spearchucker,

One last note: What the hell I am going to do after retirement I haven't a clue, but my wife is dreading it, she knows that a non busy bored me is not a good thing.

Hopefully it will be model trains and guns to keep me occupied.

Edit: If your interested here is a link to one of my major programs and customers, and bet your ass Spec's and Quality count:

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/weapons/wep-phal.html

Ok schromf. I went to the Colorado school of trades gunsmithing and I did get my little graduation ticket. I have done warranty for Remington, Winchester, Weatherby , Perazzie and Kimber USA. I work on about 800 guns a year now. Eight hundred if you cant read. That’s building or repairing. I’ve been gunsmithing for 25 years. When I’m not working on guns I get stuck on manual machine’s ..... lathe or mill, or on a CNC lathe or CNC mill making god knows what....... most times I don’t ask..... Point is anyone can run a stupid machine. There are hundreds of machinists in Alberta
there are only 4 gunsmiths left that make their living at it. Rod Henrickson. By the way next time you need a Mickey Mouse gunsmith shove your nose up your ass and do it yourself!
Looser !!!!

quote:

Mickey Mouse gunsmith shove your nose up your ass and do it yourself!

No problem, I walk to the shop, start up my bridgeport or my southbend and do just that.

THe problem with many gunsmiths is they are just piss poor businessman, tradesman yes, businesman no. And they get in over their head. At $50 a gun @ 800 candain does that qualify you for welfare?

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
Ha Ha Rick. The guy next door could have checked my spelling for me for next to nothing. You know him! He is the same guy that does your gun work !!!!!!!!!!!! Rod

Your spelling was fine, but your English “are†terrible!!!

Do the nurses know that you are on the computer and not with the other patients in the basket weaving class?

Speerchucker, I really wish that you would lighten up just a bit because your bullshit is beginning to really annoy me. You have joined AR quite recently and so far I have seen nothing from you except ignorant, rude, misspelled and grammatically weird rants against some of the most senior, respected posters here. You may be the foremost gunsmith in Canada, although after 47 years of shooting and 37 years of involvement with custom rifles I have never even heard of you, but, you are NOT the foremost gunsmith who posts here, not even remotely close.

quote:

Originally posted by XL Bar:
From my relatively short time in the gunsmithing trade I have come to one major conclusion. Gunsmiths as a breed are some of the most independent, contrarian, iconoclastic individuals I have ever known (and I consider myself all of the above). Getting a group of gunsmiths to agree on something of this magnitude would be at best difficult and at the worst impossible. I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade, and I believe that the shooting public needs to be protected from neandersmiths who everday do shoddy work which jeopardizes wallets and sometimes lives. I just think it is one of those concepts that works in theory, but not in practice, kind of like communism.

Brian Bingham

Hey Brian, Talk about a Senior moment, when I spotted this post, I totally missed that it was from you.

How `bout an Update Report on the things you are learning with Mr. Echols? Really enjoyed reading what you had to say in the last one.

Hot Core,

Thanks for the kind words. I have resumed my gunsmith training at Trinidad State Junior College and have been busy integrating their teaching with everything I learned from D'Arcy. I hope to soon write a followup about my experiences this summer. I also would like to write about what we are learning here at school.

Brian Bingham

Good luck to ya Brian.
Like HC, I've truly enjoyed your posts.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul H:
There are two things that would be required for this to work, a set of standards being established, and a means of assuring that gunsmiths, and manufacturers, follow these standards.

-----------------------------

Hi, Paul. Sorry to respond to your post so late.

At first I thought the same as you express the situation above.

Have sorta changed my mind. Now I suspect an enforcement role is not neccesarily ether a required or useful part of the standards concept...at least for the first decade or two after its inception.

I suspect it would be more useful to assume that most honest, working 'smiths only crank out low quality work sometimes because of ignorance, not intent. (That's not saying they are "stupid", just that they have not been exposed to the knowledge they may need for a certain task...and don't know where to find that knowledge.)

So, the first step may be to compile the standards and make them available. Possibly the Standards Organization could recover the expense of compilation by charging an annual access fee to the information, stored in an online database.

I do think a lot more gunsmiths would adhere to correct dimensions, etc., and would steer clear of incorrect and possibly dangerous ad-hoc "make-do" work if they had easy quick access to knowing what the correct specs and techniques are, at a reasonable cost.