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How much difference does four verses three down in a dangerous game rifle make in the real world? One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | ||
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ah... this will be fun.. there's lots of religion in that question opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I would guess it can be very situational. | |||
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ZERO! How many rounds down does a double rifle have? Who shoots 5 rounds at anything anyway? If you are shooting 5 shots, you should have practiced more. | |||
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Within reason, why not? J Wisner just converted my 458 Zastava to hold four down and modified the bolt to better drop a cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt. I have a 458 - five shooter.  I think it's neat. I've never shot a moose more than once with the 458. In those cases I touched one off, blinked at the recoil and when I looked back thru the scope there were four hoves in the air. In a couple other cases I found i emptied the magazine with different rifles and was fishing singles out of my pockets, dropping them in the chamber, closing the bolt and firing. I have a 400H&H, a 375 and a 9.3x62 I'd like to send Mr Wisner. | |||
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Im sure one antecdote will outweigh another A client in Alaska had a hairy experience with an anti social bear. He sent me the rifle and asked that I make the magazine hold another round "Whwatever it takes" By widening the bottom of the magazine, made it hold four down and ability to single load the fifth . He wasn't too concened about chest hair. Im a firm believer in four down for a DGR. Even made a few 500 Jeff's do that. The thing is....better to have a three down feed and function smooth and flawlessly rather then a four down that's cranky | |||
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I have hunted a lot of game with my single shots. I only put two to 3 rounds into my magazine during many hunts. When I think more rounds are needed I am not afraid to fill them up to capacity. 4 down seams reasonable to me. | |||
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pdog you could make it more sporting and just carry one cartridge in your shirt pocket with an empty gun | |||
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According to some here carrying a firearm with an empty chamber is the only safe way to hunt thus very sporting also.. So when hunting with a single or double that that mean having a round in your pocket or in ones hand. | |||
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I know a couple PH’s put in the hospitals when they ran out of rounds with their Doubles. I’ve had clients run dry with 5 rounds while being assisted by their PH. I have one client that missed the brain with his 1st shot on an Elephant and 13 rounds later and many hundreds yards further down the trail finally ended that drama. That was with a 505 Hopefully all goes well with the 1st round out regardless if the intended is a raccoon or an Elephant. But shit does happen | |||
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Must be a thousand stories of he man whose balls clank when he walks just to shit his pants when the rubber hits the road | |||
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What I am hearing is that three down makes for a slimmer rifle, four down makes for additional peace of mind. I am guessing that with proper magazine geometry so the cartridges are not cramped but still feed reliably with all bullet types, a slightly thinner follower, and a slightly deeper floor plate, you could have a trim rifle that holds four down. One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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If you like I could scan and email my bill from Wisner. He broke down all the steps taken. I believe he used a magazine spring that compressed flat, different follower, different floor plate and messed with the box. The outside dimensions didn't change and like I said, it's all very cool. | |||
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What I am reading is that, if 4 rounds didn't/coudn't do the job, then 5 won't either. It's not the one extra round that even matters, it is what you did with the first one. All this talk just makes hunters nervous and puts money in custom gunsmith's pockets. Keep it up. | |||
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Up in the neck of the woods that Mr. King lives they grow those Bears HUGE. He told me of a Black Bear a couple of years ago that was in his neighbor hood, he said the Bear looked like a Buick when it walked away from you After a while those bears learn what a gunshot ( Dinner Bell ) means. So extra rounds in the magazine may mean saving your skin. Only IF the Person can shoot properly. True story, I knew this guy ( ( sadly gone now ) He went Moose hunting up in Canada one year. Took his 300 Weatherby, as he was following the guide thru some brush they stumbled upon a Grizzly feeding on a kill. Needless to say the Bear WAS PISSED, the guide got off one good shot and dove to the side as the Bear about ran him over. This left my friend all alone facing a pissed off and wounded bear, with only his 300 Weatherby So he would shoot, and take a step back, well at the 3rd shot he had backed into a tree trunk At the 5th shot, the Bear hit the ground at my friends feet. The guide re-appeared, and put another round in the Bears skull just to make certain. All the bullets had hit their mark, it was just a short distance and the Bear was Pissed Sadly my friend NEVER went hunting again. It all depends on where you are hunting, and which animals are in the area Just my 2 cents Jim Wisner | |||
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Dave...You don't always need a a bulkier rile to get four vs 3 down. On the above menrioned Alaskan rifle...It had a machined (Blackburn) bottom metal. Tapered on the outside,. but not tapered on the inside. I put a taper on the inaside of the box (Making sort of a trapezoid configuration ) That's all! I have used the trapezoid many times to get a little extra room..somtimes just to get compression room to single load another round in the chamber. Of course, the extractor somtimes needs slight modification (Mausers mostly) for the smooth "snap over". Look at this way: Your truck gets 20 MPG You plan a t rip of 100 miles...Do you only put in 5 gallons? | |||
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This quote should be enshrined somewhere for posterity. Most of my friends who are hunters have a plethora of combat experience. Most are capable of taking their game with one shot nearly regardless of conditions. All of them pack an absurd amount of extra ammunition, extra firearms, gear and equipment. And wipes. You can never have too many bullets and wipes. A group of us went to pickup a piece of equipment in the dilapidated suburb of a large city. If we had been stopped by the police at any point the photographs would have looked like one of those Cartel bust photo's  those boys don't mess around. Point of the story.... I've never hunted something that could kill me, or shoot back for that matter. But the lessons I have learned from those who have, means I would be bringing more than my fair share to ensure I made it home to my kids. I do not care one little bit if some people who are better than me want to make fun of me for it. Especially on an internet forum  Nathaniel Myers Myers Arms LLC nathaniel@myersarms.com www.myersarms.com Follow us on Instagram and YouTube I buy Mauser actions, parts, micrometers, tools, calipers, etc. Specifically looking for pre-WWII Mauser tools. | |||
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We are talking about dangerous game. Call me crazy, but for big dangerous animals, I would have to say that more rounds are generally better than fewer. But there are other considerations. An example: How important to you are two super-fast shots? To some who have been there and done that, two super-fast shots, especially at close range in tight circumstances, are paramount. Hence the primacy of the double rifle among PHs. I love double rifles. As another example, I would also have to say that bigger bores are better than smaller ones, assuming that one can handle a bigger bore as well as a smaller one. I love big bores. And then, of course, as yet another consideration, there is the lighter vs. heavier weight rifle dilemma. Bigger bores and more rounds weigh a lot more than smaller and fewer ones. How much weight is too much? The importance of these considerations will vary from hunter to hunter and will depend on the situation. We all have to figure this stuff out for ourselves. Not sure there is any single right answer - I think there are several right answers. That's why I own and use several DG rifles. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I am building a .416 Remington on a pre-64 model 70 action taken from a rifle that had been rechambered from .300 H&H to .300 Weatherby. Duane's suggestions are a big help since I prefer a trimmer rifle, but would like to accommodate the extra round. I am planning to use after market bottom metal, but if I have too I will machine my own from scratch. In any event, I plan to make a new follower and magazine box that is the appropriate width for and tapers the same as the cartridges. I am aiming at around nine pounds loaded and scoped. One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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How comfortable are you, is a big part of it. I shoot a number of black bears every year doing crop damage. DPCD gets pixs and recovered bullets from me, so he knows. One of my favorite things is a rainy eve, finding the bears in the corn. The rain masks your scent and noise prowling through the field. I carry a Marlin 336 in 35 Rem with a 16" barrel, as shots are 15' or less. I took a fellow with me who wanted a bear. I told him how it would go, when we got to where we could see it, he was to hold back on the trigger, and cock the hammer of his 30-30. Let off the trigger and it would be ready with no clicking noise. We got close enough to one so to hear the bear breaking stalks, and crunching down cobs. Hunkered down low to see under the lower leaves, and close in until the bear was in sight. I was motioning with my hand for him to close in. I would give a grunt, and when the bear turned he was to shoot it in the head. I waved, and waved and waved. I finally looked behind me, and he wasnt even there! I got out of the field, and his car was gone! I finally called and got him on the phone. He had turned and left when he heard the stalks breaking and the bear eating and grunting! Funny as hell!!! | |||
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That's funny! | |||
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How comfortable am I around potentially dangerous critters? Based on having spent a fair bit of time in Alaskan bear country, having bears within 30 yards or so of me, close encounters with cow moose with calves, and my one and only cape buffalo taken at about 20 yards after stalking into the middle of the herd, at least not totally panicked. I have never had a critter try to kill me except for a "domestic" dog, so I really cannot answer much beyond that. One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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You have your work cut out for you, my friend. My post-64 classic CRF Win. Model 70 in .416 Rem. Mag. with a walnut stock is pretty svelte, at least by my reckoning. It holds three down, and empty with the scope of my choosing (a Leupold VX-7 1.5-6x24 mm in Talley rings and bases), weighs in at a shade over ten and a half pounds. I think you will need a synthetic stock. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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No hands-on experience here. Best to have it and not need it than the opposite comes to mind. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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My grandfather had a Mauser in .404 Jeffery. It could hold 5 down. When he went looking for lion, he would put one in the chamber, invert the rifle, open the floor plate and put another five in. As a boy and young man, I loved that feature on that rifle, and whenever I carried it, it had at least five rounds in it. But if I ever get another opportunity at a buff, I would want to do it with a single shot. Go figure. | |||
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In my past law enforcement days I witnessed that more than once. Craftsman | |||
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I have a new Blackburn 2X that I’d be willing to sell for $325 plus USPS, but like Jim said, it requires a hole for the guard screw. And I also have a pre-64 (1947) receiver for another $200 if you need. John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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Hilarious ! Lucky I wasn't holding o coffee ! Thanks for the story. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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I have seen the same when the hounds have a fight with a bear going on in a thicket. Where you can't see more then 5 yards . I have heard more then once I am not going in there. They can get a real funny look on their face. When you hold out your handgun and say go kill that bear. Or you tell them you go first. I'll be right behind you. | |||
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The Sako L61R/AIII/AV holds four magnum rounds down (and five standards down). I shoot Sakos almost exclusively and over the years have had at least three occasions where the animal (two trophy whitetails and a trophy elk) would have been lost had it not been for the single extra shot in the magazine. Naturally, this is rare. Of course, the Sako is an UNRELIABLE push feed, so using it for dangerous game is like signing your own death warrant (at least according to fans of clumsy old Mausers, who apparently insist on turning their rifles upside down before working the action. I never seem to have time to do that when working the bolt for a subsequent shot, so can't attest to how unreliable push feeds are.) | |||
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Trust me; push feed rifles feed perfectly upside down; All of the Army's rifles and most of their MGs are push feed. Just hype from those who do not know how to operate a rifle. I prefer them because they operate much smoother. Many of my personal rifles are on Post 64 Model 70s; smooth feed and true magnum length. This, for some reason, infuriates many hunters. Now, back on topic; I like 5 rounds down. Three or four does not work for me. | |||
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dpcd, exerts from two of your posts in this discussion seem to indicate in your own words that you yourself have some more practice to do | |||
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We have a bid for five down, do I hear six? One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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E27; you should know by now not to compare or examine any of my posts too closely. After all, I am not an expert at anything nor did I ever claim to be. And I can't be held to account for anything. People still read it, willingly, and for free. You might have meant, excerpts. Exert is work. Which I try to avoid. And I have used 19 down many times and needed all of them; in South Dakota; those things took many rounds to put down. A family group on the mound. And they are more dangerous than any "DG"' they carry Bubonic Plague. | |||
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Realistically I wonder how often a four or five down magazine ever gets emptied on dangerous game. Most video I've watched of African hunting sees the shooter recharge his magazine after the first one or two shots anyway. If an animal charges you will not likely get a chance to fire much more than one shot and if the animal runs off or is down but not out you can recharge. Using my 1 up and 3 down Mauser 404 with extractor not modified to close on a chambered round, I never felt 'undergunned' when hunting buffalo even when amongst a mob in scrub country. My mate was using a 7x57 so I was conscious of backing him up too if need be. | |||
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Why would you believe what one sees in most videos. They are heavily edited. | |||
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Well, my lever action .50 Alaskan holds 7 + 1. How is that? A .510 535 grain Woodleigh at 1850 fps means I have never had to shoot twice. But, I have not had anything toothy try to eat me or stomp me. | |||
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If you are not actually shooting, you should be a) reloading, b) moving or c) calling for friends with more guns. My recommendation would be to practice a & b so you can do them nearly simultaneously while not having to focus on your ammo or your gun and not worry about an extra round down. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Not the same, but I viewed a true crime stopry...The victim had been beaten, now with a broken nose, so she was most likey somewhat blinded. Broke free momentarily and got off five shots out of her 5 shot revolver...mikssed! Attacker then murdered her Would another round ,or even another 10 rounds have saved her life? | |||
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Brian Herne’s 458 held seven… do I hear eight!!?? | |||
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