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I have just had my rifle rebarreled and shot it in these sre the first two grouos through it with factory ammo. First Group  Second Group  At this point I packed up and went home. Any suggestions where to go now? The Rifle is a Sako 75 in .25-06 and the barrel is a bartlein 5R with a 5 1/2 contour. Deer Management Training, Mentoring & DSC 2 Witnessing Please PM or deermanagementservices@gmail.com for details Dama International: The Fallow Deer Project | ||
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Yes, don't mean to sound sarcastic but how about back to the range... 2 groups doesn't meant anything... was it two different brands of ammo... if so the first the first group is not bad at all 1) make up some handloads 2) shootem 3) Have somebody else shootem 4) check to make sure the mounts and rings are properly installed You shot two groups...the average of those two groups is about 1.75 inches I would say you don't know anything about your rifle yet. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I have cleaned the rifle and I am going to the range tomorrow. I will post he results when I get back. I have loaded some rounds to try as well as the factory. Deer Management Training, Mentoring & DSC 2 Witnessing Please PM or deermanagementservices@gmail.com for details Dama International: The Fallow Deer Project | |||
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Not enough info. Butch | |||
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2 x 3-shot groups is hardly a scientific survey. I would expect you will need maybe 100 rounds of various loads to find what your rifle likes , plus some sort of barrel-break-in procedure/time , all of which you cany get from 6 rounds. Hang in there , be patient , and dont get disallusioned. Its a 25-06 , cant help but be good. ________________________ Old enough to know better | |||
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There are a I too would recommend shooting it some more before passing judgment. Also, I would begin looking for other potential problems. Where the first group looked somewhat together and the second group fell apart, I would look at possible fouling or uneven forearm contact throwing the rounds. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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pretty good advice I'd say! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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You have an excellent barrel, and an excellent action. I've got custom rifles that shoot handloads that are in the .100 but throw most all factory ammo b/w 1 and 2 inches. It is and always will be controversial as to whether or not a new barrel needs to be broken in. One engineer at BOTW suggests that shooting over a chrony will prove that you need to shoot and clean after every shot, down to bare metal, until velocities stabilize. Other shooters and gunsmiths with years of experience disagree and opine that either the bbl will shoot or it won't. Perhaps you should PM Boss Hoss as he claims to have had 2 bad experiences with Bartlien barrels but I do not recall the details. I have a Bartlien bbl at a smiths right now waiting for an action and stock. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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I think it would be pretty tough for a match grade barrel of that contour to shoot that bad. I would first check mounts and scope. After that I think it will come down to the barrel. If you get bullets down a tube of that quality they should make some kind of group. Remember: Barrel Bedding Bullets in that order that is the most important thing for accuracy everything else is icing on the cake. | |||
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I have a Ruger M77 tang safety in 25/06 that has had the action and forearm bedded and with factory ammo will shoot groups that are worse than your first three shots. When I began trying to find a load it liked the best I could do is about 2" at 100 yds. on a good day. I put the rifle up for a long time and eventually gave it to my son but after a while he brought it back because it was such a lousy shooter, and the break from it kind of refreshed me and I started looking at different components to try and stumbled onto a load that shoots about as good as any rifle I have. Win cases with IMR 4350 pushing a 120 grain Speer BTSP bullet, which will get down around the .5MOA. There is hope, but I think the 25/06 is the hardest cartridge to find a decent load for but maybe it is just my old hand-me-down rifle that used to be my dads deer rifle. Dennis Life member NRA | |||
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I wouldn't worry about factory ammo or 120 grain pointy bullets. Try some 100 grain Sierra flat based bullets with 4350. After about 50 to 100 rounds it should settle down. | |||
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You need to start shooting more factory ammo then! Seen some incredible rifles shoot terribly with certain loads. FOllow the advice given. Also, please report on how many wind flags you used, where they were located, what front and rear rests you used, and what your bench is like SHoot 5, 5 shot groups to get an idea of what is really happeneing. Butch (I think) recently said that a 3 shot group just gives you a point of impact. Very true words! | |||
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Have seen a couple of rifles shoot like that. One took trying a bunch of powders to find the "right" one. Holds better than an MOA now. Just took LOTS of patience and many more than a few groups. Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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My old Sako Finnbear .270 used to throw crappy groups, only cured it when I had the forearmclear spaced /floated, also when leaning into the bipod the wood must have been touching the barrel, shoots sixpenny sized groups now. Steve. | |||
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Most of the 25/06's with which I am familiar prefer 100gr bullets. I and my gunsmith(a longtime friend) shoot the same model 25/06. they both like IMR4831 and 100gr Sierra bullets. I won't get into the break-in debate but I assure you the rifle will improve with time if you eliminate the potential problems mentioned by several other posters. GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!!!! IF YOU'RE GONNA GET OLD,YOU BETTER BE TOUGH!! GETTIN' OLD AIN'T FOR SISSIES!! | |||
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True accuracy is measured with five shot groups over a number of sessions. Accuracy of a rifle is just as much the inherent accuracy of the rifle as it is the trust you have in the rifle to place the next shot within a given area. If you have no trust in the rifle to shoot well, Or trust in yourself to do the same then why try as hard to make a perfect shot? Then there are all the variables Condition of the rifle, mounts, and scope Type of ammo Weather conditions (Temp, humidity, Wind) Your personal level of skill Your personal emotional state How much coffee you had etc etc etc!!!!! Sometimes you just have to put the rifle down and take a breather and come back to it when you relax. I've needed to do this a number of times. You can't be in a hurry. I once shot a one hole group with an AR-15 with iron sights off a bench. The only match grade thing on that rifle was the barrel and it wasn't free floated either. One group is a fluke unless there is a measurable consistency to prove that level of accuracy. So just as you feel you rifle has a problem, I could just as well think my AR-15 was bench rest quality. But with out the performance over time we will never know for sure. Two groups is not data. That's just getting warmed up. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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So you're suggesting the problem could be a trust issue between you, the gun and the target? A little zen thing huh? _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Did I forget to mention that before each shooting session I have a cup of tea and light incense on the bench to eliminate the bad ju ju  Seriously though if you think the rifle can't shoot worth a darn then why try to shoot well at all. It's conscious or subconscious but either way if you yourself are not doing everything in your power to make a perfect shot then there will be an error. We are trying to find out how accurate the rifle is not how accurate the shooter is. so as much human influence needs to be removed. Call it trust, confidence, or what have you but it is there. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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looks like my shooting after a RedBull and an espresso. Honestly I did that one day and my results we as shown as above. On the otherside I have a 25-06 barrel that took a while to settle in and get accurate. I did find out my barrel will shoot NO factory loads that I have found, accurately. I need to keep it close to max loads for high velocity with 100-120 grain bullets or it shoots like hell. I do not know the twist, but it must be a little too fast. Another gunsmithing class project from a few decades ago. | |||
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Oh yes. Absolutely! When I 'know' the rifle will shoot where aimed, I know who's fault it is should I miss (horrible word, that). Kick ones own butt, shoot better and fix the problem - no excuses! But if one doubts the rifle .... forget it! Regards 303Guy | |||
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A very interesting reading; within a couple of days I will get my Ruger M77/II rebarreled in 25-06 and will test it next weekend. I will remember these suggestions. | |||
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6 total shots? 10? including sight in? its LIKELY your new barrel isn't the same exact contour. Who installed the barreled aciton into the stock? if wasn't properly installed, thats an easy one to fix .. was it bedded before, and not rebedded? go shoot a box of ammo, one every 2 mins, DO NOT CLEAN IT and then wait 30 mins, and shoot another group if that group LOC (looks like C!!!) then call the guy that did the work and ask him for suggestions.. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Mentioned above lightly and somewhat remote is another real potential group destroyer possibility; the scope or the mounts. Scopes can go bad, especially when being remounted and mounts don't have to be tight, etc. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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What does LOC stand for? _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I remember one Rugger .25/06 that I had rebedded and tuned up for a good customer. We took that rifle out and shot it with Remington 120 gr factory. It shot like the second target- I said I guess that it doesn't like that load. But handloading 115 Noslers at the range a few minutes later gave 5 shot groups of .35 @ 100. Glenn | |||
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LOC = looks like crap, Malm opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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That's what I thought. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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This must be some sort of Texas Bubba thing,WTF! How bout LLC=looks like crap | |||
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