I know this has nothing to do with Gunsmithing, but that is where the thread was and was being followed. What happened to the "Why did Swamp lose his job" thread? It wasn't moved to another part of Accurate. It was outright deleted! Bad form.

If it was deleted, spot on. What a total waste of cyberspace.

Chuck

Amen Chuck! Mebbee some people should take their whinin' elsewhere.

Gentlemen....this is Saeed's forum and he doesn't believe in censorship or banning.

Having said that, I did something I will probably get some heat for... I deleted this topic.

It is one thing to bash another person...it is being done right and proper elsewhere in this forum. I was asked to remove that line of discussion by Swamp and after discussing it with Saeed we let it continue.

Since I am the registrant of the domains associated with this forum, I get all sorts of emails which I usually ignore or discuss with Saeed.

However, when people start accusing others of child molesting whether in jest or otherwise a certain line has been crossed.

Now back to our regular fun and games........

Don

Don,

I hate to say it, but I suspected you deleted it. It coincided with your arival this afternoon.

Child molesting? Where did you read that? Regardless of what it said, anyone that makes that sort of statement is putting themselves at risk of ridicule or more advanced problems. It doesn't reflect on Saeed or anyone else.

No matter what is said from this point forward. AR cannot be sold as a censorship free forum. You have screwed the pooch. Or goat. Whatever is your flavor.

I have no chips on this table. But I've seen as bad on other threads hrere on AR. If you start censoring here, where will you stop? It's a real slippery slope.

[ 10-21-2003, 03:53: Message edited by: mrlexma ]

I wonder what will be deleted next and for what reason? I agree the post in queston was in bad taste but I think censorship is in manyways worse...I hope this is not the thin end of the wedge? So much for Saeed saying no censorship ever...

As I said, I'll probably take some heat for this but I made a command decision.....

I"m willing to live with it.

As for the comment selling the forum based on no censorship?

We are not selling anything here gentlemen.

Don

Don,

It is a figure of speech, but here is a direct quote from Saeed himself.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saeed:
Doug S,

Welcome to the forum.

Our Political Forum was started for the amusement of our memebrs - especialy those who have gotten banned from other sites, and have asked me to start one here.

On that forum, as well as the rest of our site, one is free to express his point of view, without any fear of being censored or banned.

---

And another....

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saeed:
I was not aware we had any censorship here

---

And then there is PaulH's quote....

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul H:
I guess because folks who visit other boards are used to posts being edited or deleted, the expect the same here. For better or worse, you won't get that.

I'm not sure what has a thicker hide, and elephant or Saeed

---

Maybe you need to let a few people in on the new direction you are taking AR.

I started the other thread and it doesn�t bother me that it was banned. As been said it was pretty much a waste of time but it was entertaining while it lasted.

I do want the record to be clear that I saw to reference to child molestation on the thread and I certainly made no reference to it. I also attempted to make clear, and I think the responses indicated such, that the whole thing was tongue in cheek and simply poking fun at Swamp and some of his �strange� behavior on his site.

While I have no problem with the deleting of the thread when the sites owner is on record as saying NO to censorship that is what should happen.

No whining on my part or anyone I know. Swamp is incapable of causing me to whine. I find his banning spree, his emailed threats, and his complaining to Saeed funny. I always enjoy a good chuckle and Swamp is usually good for that.

Where was the child molesting? If I missed it that *post* certainly merits elimination, but not the thread. I don't need to paste the censor ship free promo's as it's already been done. Looks like old Swamp Gas has some influence here

To those that bitch about such threads, skip over it. Or are you commanded by some unknown force in the universe to read it and reply in repetition?

Longbob...I"m not taking trying to take this in any direction. I was clear in why I removed the offensive missile.

In fact, I"ll probably suggest to Saeed tomorrow to remove me from my position of administrator. Of course that probably means the next time there is a crash...well, I won't be able to fix it.

I helped Saeed build this site...maybe it is time I moved on. This was the first editorial I have ever taken....it is my last.

As for Swamp having any influence...rest assured he has less than none.

Don

Don,

You knew you would take quite a bit of heat for doing this. I'm sure you wouldn't have expected anything less.

Thus there is no reason for you to give up your position as administrator. Actually, the only time you were derelict in your duties for that position was when you went to the Yankee/Red Sox game.

As far as your clear reason why you removed the thread, I (as others have also stated) do not remember any reference to child molestation.

Longbob...I wish I had taken the screen shot so I could send it to you privately. I didn't...big mistake. The fact that I deleted it so fast was a good thing.

Don

I can certainly understand actions based on anything child related and in poor taste. Censorship free doesn't mean letting crap like that stay up. I quess I just would have removed that post. I suppose not seeing it may be make some less than supportive, or me in this case. Sorry if I sounded too harsh. The censorship issue as it applies to Swamp is his posting of crap and then banning everybody with a opposing opinion and then pissing backwards even further and removing his own posts from public view. This case isn't the same and I shouldn't have indictated as such. My apologies.

Dempsy..you are absolutely right..the mistake I made was hitting the topic delete and not the post delete....I realized that error too late I'm afraid.

I truly am sorry for that....but I am not sorry I acted against that tasteless post.

Don

DGREENBAUM, stick around, you are an administrator, sometimes that�s not a very admirable job with some of the Spoiled Brats around here, but this is your job, now act like an administrator, suck that belly in, poke that chest out, slick that hair back, and show these Spoiled Brats what a good administrator is like. First what ever the thread was, or was about, I am sure you were well within bounds for the action you took. Even the thread Author said you were. If the thread was on a subject that wasn't proper in whatever forum it was posted in, then it should have been deleted. That�s what Saeed has the political forum for. One suggestion why not move this thread to the political forum. Then join us, we would love to have you.

Well, I'll say it. I think it was a bullshit move.

Swamp comes over here crying, and gets his way. Let him post his side and stand by it, like a grown man. Swamp, if you're reading this, go cry somewhere else. Either post up, or shut the f*** up. This behind-the-scenes crap is bullshit. I will NEVER visit HA again. You will not get a single hit from me to boost your numbers for your advertisers.

Don, if Saeed believes in a censorship-free forum, and you decided on your own to start deleting things, you're wrong.

As for the "post delete" vs "thread delete", if you're so good at this web stuff, I have a hard time believing you hit the "wrong button". I also wonder if you can't retrieve the thread, but are just unwilling to.

I think that you SHOULD step aside, as you lost a lot of faith in that one move. I will now always wonder when another "mistake" will be made.

Saeed, I'm interested in hearing your take on this...

(The one good board remaining, and it looks like it is starting down the same path... )

Don

I too, hope you don't try to cease being the Administrator. I feel your explanation is sufficient.

I am also happy to hear Swamp has less than no influence on you. I tried to tell him Howard was just pushing his buttons with some of the threads he complained to me about in some e-mail correspondence and I sincerely believe that was the case. But if you felt it was offensive I like others am more than willing to buy that. I don't see a bold statement anywhere on AR like the one on HA: "basically this is my house and if I don't like someone they are out o here"

But, I would hate to see all the threads that describe what happen over on HA deleted because that has become Swamp's answer to most everything lately. I am fairly certain he wishes he hadn't acted quite so rashly that night, but what he did is done. I would hate to see all the discussion of what went on then and the next day wiped out because few people actually saw what was posted and deleted before the actual bannings took place.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let's put this in perspective. The topic, as I understand it, was regarding why someone lost his job. There was some allegation of child molestation, probably in jest.

WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH HUNTING OR RELOADING?

Take that shit somewhere else!

Regards,

Terry

DGREENBAUM, you da man.

Swamp comes over here crying, and gets his way. Let him post his side and stand by it, like a grown man.

It is one thing to bash another person...it is being done right and proper elsewhere in this forum. I was asked to remove that line of discussion by Swamp and after discussing it with Saeed we let it continue.

Cold bore

It appears to me Swamp didn't get his way. If there was a post that had the words that Don says were in it I have no problem with him making a command decision to delete it. I am sure that if such a thing happens again he will delete just that post and not the entire thread. Nobody is perfect and he has given a logical explanation in my opinion:
Dempsy..you are absolutely right..the mistake I made was hitting the topic delete and not the post delete....I realized that error too late I'm afraid.

Maybe you are the only one who doesn't require an eraser on a lead pencil, but several other of us have had to use them more than once. I say give the man the benefit of the doubt.

Don, as you said you should take heat for it. I read the thread a number of times and there was no mention of child molestation anywhere. Several about goats and those who loved them but as table fare. Deleting the thread does not mean that it is unrecoverable. You can bring it back. Do you have a tape back up? I suspect that you do. If you went to the trouble of eliminating any evidence of it you went to way more trouble than it is worth.

You have a tough job to do and I am sure you will relive this decision many times. I would doubt that Saeed will want you to leave over it. From what I have seen you have done a good job when the chips were down. This time you just made a mistake and burned the chips.

[ 10-21-2003, 06:26: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Hey guys, what's going on in this thread?!

The Tape Backup is done each night..it is not real time.

As for those on this thread who doubt what I say was posted....get a life.

I did not "burn the chips".....Geez you guys.......

Don

This is your responsibility and you can do as you see fit, but... the last time I looked in on the political forum there were members there directly accusing another member of being a child molester. No proof was forthcoming, but this went on for quite a while, and the last time I looked, was still going on. I guess I have to wonder what the difference is here?

[ 10-21-2003, 06:43: Message edited by: ol blue ]

Know What?

I've expected any NUMBER of posts i've made to be deleted, as any sysop is ALWAYS 100% within their rights to do so.
I was stunned when none of them were.

BUT

It's ALWAYS the owners right to do so. Kinda the "we retain the right to refuse service to anyone"

Unless there was a redeming quality in the thread, that one should take ONLY to the sysop, privately, I would let the matter drop.

if one takes TO the sysop, askes for it to be restored, and it is NOT, then that's called TOUGH SHIT, not censorship.

These forums, much as I blast away at trolls, are not the property of ours. We certainly make the COMMUNITY. When the person in charge makes that decision you have to live by it.

Pounding one's chest, in public, over a matter that should be discussed IN PRIVATE "tries" the case in the public eye.

jeffe

Folks, lets cut admin some slack. Deleting a post is a judgment call. If I had been administrator the thread would have been deleted for being off topic.

I see nothing sinister here and no censorship beginning.

My sincerest thanks for providing this forum for us.

Wally

Don

Most of us understand what you did. As said perhaps deleting just the post rather than the whole thread would have been better, but too late.

I think if someone claimed the individual in question lost his job due to paedephilia is despicable. Adding a smiley face doesn't make it a joke at all.

I think had you NOT removed the comment you and Saeed could have legitimately been sued for defammation.

But keep up the good work.

PS I do think it is funny that a terminable "deleter" is trying to get you to delete comments here as well

In the deleted thread: There was reference to a certain person preferring cubscouts over brownies. It was a joke that implied a certain person was a pedophile of the homosexual bent. It was there, along with joking accusations of bestiality.

That was not worth wasting bandwidth on.

I hope someone deletes any threads with pictures of dilated rectums. Thanks for the last time that was done.

Feces just needs to be flushed. I don't consider it censorship in a public forum where stupid gossip can get started, and the referenced individual is known to be sue-happy.

Well done.

[ 10-21-2003, 07:53: Message edited by: RIP ]

This forum from the short time I have participated in it, I consider to be a genuinely GREAT gift and opertunity.Thank you to whoever has donated time or money to bring it to us.
If a man recinds his approval for people to express themselves on his wall and removes the smute and graphitee (Only) is he within his right? Is he wrong?
Changing ones mind isn't novel. "Read My Lips no new ----- "
Thanks again for this SHOOTERS forum. roger

Longbob, what seems to be your problem, somebody not flush your toilet and leave a dully in the bowl. Saeed has designed this Board and allotted proper Forums, for proper post, in proper places. Nobody on this whole board is more controversial at times than I and a few others around here. But I respect the bounds of this Board, "Things in their proper place." The political Forum is the proper place for this, and the thread that was deleted. Sure the Administrator should have just moved the thread to the political Forum. But, what's done is done. Time to move on and get to Gunsmithing. We will see you in the political Forum. Better strap on your seatbelt over there.

Don, now that someone jarred my memory,there was a post about the brownies/boy scout and I assume that is what you deleted the post for. I apologize for doubting you.

I'm with Longbob. But I think this is more about hypocrisy than censorship.

I find a huge proportion of the posts in the politics forum tasteless, ad hominem and offensive. But I believe that we are all adults and can quickly separate those who can think and express themselves persuasively from those who are no more than moronic flamers and rabid attack dogs.

It's this simple: You had better not advertise freedom of the press on the one hand, if, on the other, you're going to stopper the ink whenever it suits you to do so.

If you don't like it, don't read it.

First, Longbob, thanks for bringing this to attention, I personally wouldn't have noticed.

that said, I don't know where to weigh in on this. I hate censorship more than just about anybody. Personally if I took any action in this case, aside from moving the topic to a different catagory on AR (which if you ask me needs to be done much more often), then it would have been to immediately contact the person that posted it and let them know I would appreciate it being edited. most of us are adult enough to change it.

However, I wonder if there is some sort of legal hassle that Swamp could make for Don. Even if it were not something with a good chance of him winning, let's remember how expensive court costs, attorney's fees etc. are. Don might have been understandably nervous about having a hassle, and I am guessing he donates his time on this work. Saeed is in another country and couldn't very well take care of the legal situation himself.

In short I guess I am saying I don't like the censorship (even the beginning of it), and would have done differently myself probably, and at the same time understand the possible reasons for Don's actions.

I don't believe it is impossible for us to move forward with a "censorship free from this point on" forum. maybe we just need some sort of disclaimer-
"if you don't like what is posted here, especially about you, that is your fault. Be a better person, we take no responsibility for the views expressed about you by people you have pissed off." :-)

Red

Regarding censorship, R.A Berr... er, DaggaRo.... er, RIP mentioned the pic that got deleted a few years ago, which nobody ever agreed on if it was either an entrance or an exit...

If I remember correctly, there was no disagreement whether or not the pic was deleted, it just was. Nobody hollering censorship, etc....

For those who came to the party late, there was reference to someone being asked if they wanted a brownie for lunch, the punch line had something to do with cub scouts. Greenbaum said he made a mistake deleting the thread rather than the post, that's life and we should move on. I do think there is a difference between censorship and housekeeping in the gunsmithing forum.

Anyway, Greenbaum don't let this bug you. Just pretend these guys are on 80 meters am! ROFLMAO!

Gentlemen,

I see you guys have been having some fun whil I was fast asleep.

Lets me start of by saying what I have said many times before.

My friend Don say a post he did not like, and he deleted it, and he apoplogized that he did.

I don't like censorship in any form or shape.

Having said that, I did delete a post on the humor section a few days ago about paedophiles, which I thought was in extremely bad taste.

What I would like you all to please bear in mind that we have over 10,000 members, and several times that number who view the forums without posting.

We are bound to have at least a few who would think whatever we do is not right for them.

You should see some of the email messages I get, some are gratifying and some are not so flattering.

And for anyone to be able to turn a blind eye to some of the things being said on the Political Forum, he needs armor plated skin.

And as mrlexma said above, where does one stop when censorship starts?

I have no idea, therefor I just leave everything as it stands, and everyone who posts something, can either back his words, or he can delete his own post.

I do wish people would post subjects in their relevant forums, though.

I have added a few new forums, and in addition to those who write to express their apreciateion, I got a few complaing that we have FAR TOO many forums now. It seems we cannot please everyone.

At the end of the day, we will do what we think is of benefit to our members. We don't have to answer to any advertiser, but we will listen to any suggestions from our members, just as we have always done.

I hope this answers at least some of the qustions being asked.