Inspired a bit by ForrestB's latest acquisition, I'm thinking about dipping my toe into the custom world, if a little shallower than his.

My question is, where do I get started after I get the concept? I want a checkered walnut & blue steel with an FN Mauser action or M70 Classic with a standard 7mm, either 7x57 or 7mm-08.

I've read the "Dozen Considerations" (Plus One), so, what next?

Take a look at a couple of books to figure out what style you want.

A good one to start with would be Modern Custom Guns by Tom Turpin.

well, it depends on your budget. ...

what do you want to spend?
1000
2000
5000?

Good idea - I'll get the book.

Call it $4000.

"Originally posted by Jaywalker:
Good idea - I'll get the book."


You might consider ordering the guide from ACGG. Look at their site for further information <http://www.acgg.org/learn.html>

Roger

Here is my considered review:

Fantastic book. Superb photography and great descriptions of spectacular examples of the custom rifle maker's art.

Buy it. You'll like it!

I bought a copy of that book a year or so back. I had a few parts of the stock on my .375 that just didn't quite give the look I was after. I spent quite a bit of time looking at the different rifles in that book, and incorporated features from 3 or 4 of them into refining my basic stock. It's always a good idea to keep looking at how others are doing thngs, it gives more perspective on which way to procede.

You can also get a tremendous amount of ideas right here on AR. I have a file set up on my computer where I save pictures of guns that others have built with details I like. Stock layouts. Wood. Checkering. Types of blueing. It goes a long way in helping you make up your mind on likes & dislikes.

Unless you already have your wood, A stock will run you that much or more. Now you have the metal work to worry about.
Butch

I'm thinking he could get a nice piece of wood for $1000, $2000 for the labor to make the stock, and if he has a donor action $500 for barrel, $500 for polish/blue.

The first step is finding a good gunsmith, might be harder than you think. Assuming you've found one, lay out exactly what you want and get an estimate from him. Say the estimate is $5k. You'll be much happier saving up to have the rifle built the way you want then cutting costs.

9 times out of 10 when a guy cuts costs, the rifle is recieved isn't what he wanted, but it is what he paid for. He ends up selling the rifle at maybe $.50/dollar and putting the money into what he wanted in the first place, and at an expensive learing curve.

Worst yet are the guys that find out what it costs to have what they want made from a good smith, then they go smith shopping. They find a guy that will build what they wanted for what they are willing to pay. The end result isn't what was wanted, because the bargain smith doesn't have the skills to produce what was wanted.

And sadly there are few smiths left that specialize in the wood stocked blued hunting rifle. There certainly are several of them, and many that produce outstanding rifles. But those rifles can easily run $10k.

What is "stock layout?"

And good info, Paul. (cross-posted)

quote:

Originally posted by Iron Buck:
You can also get a tremendous amount of ideas right here on AR. I have a file set up on my computer where I save pictures of guns that others have built with details I like. Stock layouts. Wood. Checkering. Types of blueing. It goes a long way in helping you make up your mind on likes & dislikes.

+1

I have done the same thing. Plus, it is easy to send a picture to your gunsmith to help illustrate what you are wanting.

I have now had two rifles built and it has been a lot of fun.

IME you can build a great rifle in the $3,500 to $5,000 range and you can easily spend $10,000 if you go wild.

The biggest variations I have found comes in the wood and the action. Use a mauser, winchester 70 etc and a 500-700 piece of wood and you have fine rifle. Step up to a custom action and a 1000-2000 piece of wood and you can EASILY add $3-$4,000 to the price in the blink of an eye.

Add custom touches like integrated bases, quarter rib, slow rust blueing etc and you can add quite a bit to the tab.

While I love the customs with perfect wood to metal fit, custom metal work, exhibition walnut, custom actions I prefer the $3,500 to $5,000 rifles that are worlds above factory and great hunting rifle but not museum quality work.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
What is "stock layout?"

And good info, Paul. (cross-posted)

Proportions & lines of the stock. Shape of the grip, the way the foreend is shaped. Drop. Everything that dictates the style of the rifle. How the grain pattern runs through the stock.

Some people like thumbhole stocks...I am not one of them.

Some people like the Weatherby/ California style..not me.

I tend to like classic lines, some continental touches like Schnabel forends & Manlicher style rifles. All personal choices.

I like quarter sawn wood better than slab sawn (plain sawn). Right or wrong I just believe that it is more stable & less prone to warping. I also like the tight grain pattern that it has.

PaulH,
You are correct. We have several real great smiths that are active on this forum and a few that are not active. Unless you just really want to build what you want, some great deals are on GunBroker from time to time.
Butch

I'm watching Gunbroker, but I think I need more skills than I have right now to separate the wheat from the chaff based only upon the pics and the names of the makers. And, of course, there are a few things I really want, and those don't pop up every day, so I'm exploring the custom route.

I don't particularly need highly-figured wood, for instance. I do like fiddleback; is there any reason to avoid that?

After reading a couple of horror stories of non-delivery, though, I do want a maker with a history of delivering.

Iron Buck, thanks for the layout description.

Steve Hughes book is IMO the best catalyst for deciding what you'd like in a custom rifle for yourself. I keep a copy on my bench at all times. Instead of looking for an action on your own, you might consider asking your gunsmith about actions as all the 'smiths I know have a stock of suitable actions and usually know where to find more. It might help you from buying a "pig in a poke".

John,

Thanks, I'll do that. I don't have a suitable action right now.

You ought to look for a used Biesen.

I found a wonderful old custom with a real nice 1909 Argentine receiver at a gun show. I had David Christman completely reshape and rechecker the stock, ebony fore end, and a new rust blue. I probably have $1500-$1800 in it. It could not have been built for less than $5000. It is a true 5/8"-1" rifle that feeds like nobody's business.
They are out there.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
I'm watching Gunbroker, but I think I need more skills than I have right now to separate the wheat from the chaff based only upon the pics and the names of the makers. And, of course, there are a few things I really want, and those don't pop up every day, so I'm exploring the custom route.

I don't particularly need highly-figured wood, for instance. I do like fiddleback; is there any reason to avoid that?

After reading a couple of horror stories of non-delivery, though, I do want a maker with a history of delivering.

Iron Buck, thanks for the layout description.

First of all, there is no reason to avoid fiddleback, it actually is a bit stronger type of wood figure. However, that said, the grain flow MUST be laid out correctly for the stock, regardless of whether it has fiddleback or not, especially if you're considering a harder recoiling caliber. Bastogne seems to have more fiddleback in it than most walnuts, as well as some Turkish.

Second of all, it constantly amazes me that people want a custom rifle but "don't particularly need higher figured wood". The difference in appearance between a $200 perfectly serviceable blank and a $750-$1000 probably beautiful piece of wood (however you define that for your tastes) is striking in the finished product AND will have a tremendous influence on re-sale value if that could be a consideration. The costs of making a hand made stock with an inexpensive blank is just the same as for an expensive blank except for the initial cost of the wood. Besides choosing a sound action, that $500 to $800 difference is some of the best money you will spend on your project as far as final value and appearance is concerned. If you're not going to get a nicer piece of wood, there are synthetic stocks that are much cheaper, stronger, often lighter, and in many cases will have less perceived recoil than wood while saving you at least $2000 in final costs.

Just my opinion, all that said, it's your money and your project, the only one you need to please is yourself. Good luck.

First figure out why you want to have a custom rifle built. Are you after something that just looks better than a factory rifle, or do you want one that performs better? If you want one that performs better, what aspects of performance are you after, mechanical acccuracy, improved reliability, improved handling, perfect balance?

I know many folks like to bag on D'Arcy Echols as his rifles seem overpriced, but they are expensive because he has sought perfection in every aspect of the rifle, not mere mechanical accuracy.

I'd venture to say if you are after all aspects of performance, you're going to really narrow down the field of folks that can build an aesthetically pleasing wood/blue rifle that balances perfectly, feeds and functions like greased lighting, and shoots bug hole groups. I'd also venture to say you'll have to double your budget.

If a gun doesn't fit you perfectly, and balance perfectly, then it won't be the vast improvement over a factory rifle that a true custom can be. To me I can't see comissioning a full blown custom unless the end result is something that makes me say wow when I look at it, and wow when I bring it to my shoulder and cycle the action.

Sadly many to most customs only give you the wow when you look at them, and are little better than factory wares when you heft them and cycle the bolt.

For the time and $ you'll be investing, spend alot of time and some $ researching. It wouldn't be a bad idea at all to pick up a couple of used custom rifles off the auctions to get a feel for what is out there. Just stick with std chamberings so you won't have a hard time selling them after you've learned what you could from them.

Gatogordo, those are some excellent points, and if I find a peice of wood I like better than a simpler one, I'll take advantage of it. There are some wood patterns, however, that I find distract me from the wood-to-metal fit I see and like in the phots, but maybe that won't apply up close. It's something to consider, certainly.

Paul, I have to say I would never on my own have considered buying a couple of custom rifles for practice before having one made! If I learn enough that I can lose only a little on each, that will make a good deal of sense. My head's still spinning over the concept, but it isn't much different than buying the NULA and selling it, and I had no problem with that. Thanks.

First, decide if resale value has any bearing on what you plan to build. That would dictate some choices that are meaningless if this will always be your rifle.

For example, claro, bastogne and black walnut can be had with very nice figure for half of what comparable English or Turkish costs. If you don't want to have a lot of figure around the inletting, you can find a nice piece of crotch black walnut with exploding colors and feathers in the butt area only for around $500. Bastogne often has a lot of fiddleback with good grain as can claro.


Others have their own opinion but after fooling around with military mausers I think a clean FN, Husqvarna or even MK X action is the way to go for a first custom mauser. Or any commercial action, for that matter.

Building a true custom from a military action is a labor of love like building a Ford flat-head V-8 for your T-Bucket. With enough dough you can build a pretty cool 250 hp flathead but for half the price you can drive around in a 302 just as cute and twice as strong.

HERE IS YOUR CHANCE!!!!!


https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2711043/m/675103539

Steve- PM sent. I'd like one.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
First figure out why you want to have a custom rifle built. Are you after something that just looks better than a factory rifle, or do you want one that performs better? If you want one that performs better, what aspects of performance are you after, mechanical acccuracy, improved reliability, improved handling, perfect balance?

I know many folks like to bag on D'Arcy Echols as his rifles seem overpriced, but they are expensive because he has sought perfection in every aspect of the rifle, not mere mechanical accuracy.

I'd venture to say if you are after all aspects of performance, you're going to really narrow down the field of folks that can build an aesthetically pleasing wood/blue rifle that balances perfectly, feeds and functions like greased lighting, and shoots bug hole groups. I'd also venture to say you'll have to double your budget.

If a gun doesn't fit you perfectly, and balance perfectly, then it won't be the vast improvement over a factory rifle that a true custom can be. To me I can't see comissioning a full blown custom unless the end result is something that makes me say wow when I look at it, and wow when I bring it to my shoulder and cycle the action.

Sadly many to most customs only give you the wow when you look at them, and are little better than factory wares when you heft them and cycle the bolt.

For the time and $ you'll be investing, spend alot of time and some $ researching. It wouldn't be a bad idea at all to pick up a couple of used custom rifles off the auctions to get a feel for what is out there. Just stick with std chamberings so you won't have a hard time selling them after you've learned what you could from them.

This is pretty good advice. I did with Paul suggested and bought a couple that I thought I would like. They "go bang" when you pull the trigger, the shoot MOA, the triggers were fine. Then I picked up a couple of factory guns that did the exact same thing. Now, I was confused. So I just shot them until one or two became favorites. I sold one of the customs and kept a semi-custom that performs well for me.

I would like to have a Biesen but have yet to find one "used". Same for a couple of other makers. Anyway, before jumping off for a $5000 or more custom, try a couple and see what you really like or need.

There was a Biesen for sale on gunbroker yesterday, haven't checked today. I've seen them on some of the "higher end" sites too. They turn up enough that someone who wanted one could find one.

Biesen has other stuff on their website as well, and their prices seem quite reasonable in comparison with the rest of the custom industry. Especially considering how many people consider their stocks to be so wonderfully comfortable.

I also recommend the ACGG book, its cheap for the knowledge you'll get. it breaks things down for you and you'll be surprised things you didn't think a about. a lot of things can go into a custom.

also search around, you may find something very close to what you want and be ahead in the $$$ column. i bought, and then sold on here, a very very beautiful custom mauser. the stock was gorgeous english walnut, great checkering, perfect fit. I paid 500 for the guy, the blank alone would have been worth more than that. only problem, wildcat I didn't care to play with and LOP was too short. if not for the length of stock I would have spent the money getting a barrel put on custom turned to fit perfect and been way ahead.

I've never gone full blown like many of these guys but have been working towards finishing one and have spent countless hours on its planning as well as the pipe dreams.

I also think that as nice as books and pictures are you should take time to go to ACGG show in January in Reno, if possible. there are so many FINE examples of the craft there, you can handle them, get a feel for different things, see which guy does what the way you like it most (i.e. which smith makes the octagon barrel you find most attractive). there are stockmakers, metalsmiths, checkerers, all there and you can really look around. better yet join the guild, go to the auction, and if you're lucky you may end up ahead (just know ahead of time what everything is worth, I think sometimes people go over the value they'd pay retail cause they get caught up in it).

Red

SDH,
The underlever on that #10 has got to be the best lever I've ever seen...ever. Super nice.
While the back of the guard appears to be as Dakota furnished the front is obviously not.
Did you weld in the lever the guard or both and fit and finish them out or did you make new ones? How ever you can up with that it truly "works".
Timan

When it comes walnut, I suggest try and get a piece with ideal layout before getting carried away with figure. And one thats properly aged stable and dry.
Even in 10K+ rifles, Im primarily interested in great layout over complex figure, in other words, expensive figure wont take precedence over best layout.
Keep to sound sensible integrity of construction and components in any custom, and you cannot go wrong, even if it means your budget only allows for a plainer looking rifle than you imagined.
As someone else said, dont try and get too much for your dollar.
and as I will say.., Less is often More if well done.
Good luck and enjoy the process.

Maybe for around your budget, you could get a cool custom like TC1 has;
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9411043/m/927108139

TC1's rifle looks ideal to me - elegant in its simplicity. That's what I'm trying to achieve.

I dunno why people do things they do or need to justify things in life...I just like SDH's book and the look of the rifles in it. I suggest getting the thing for the beauty alone, much less the wonderful knowledge in it.

I just know perfect beauty when I see it. I personally cannot justify the costs...I can't! But I can say I WANT one of those badly! It is beautiful art plain and simple. The work that is shown here is art in the finest form. SDH, Duane, Stuart, Bill Soverns and others are artistans. They have stepped beyond the boundaries and gone above...and most of us want that art. I want one!!! That is justification enuff for me.

Stuart,
Ralf Martini told me that was the best looking Dakota he had ever seen; high praise indeed!
I hate the Dakota lever, guard and trigger and see it as a natural avenue to refine the metalwork. I've made new guards and triggers for each of the four Dakota # 10's I've built. Each lever has been more radically file-shaped.
Factory

First Bench-made Custom Guard and Trigger

SDH proprietary guard casting, new trigger, major lever shaping

Reject casting as workshop screen door handle.

I made two different shotgun type guards for custom Dakota's then made a prototype with filled in portion behind lever, had a mold made and had a few cast at a foundary. This is the result, only two rifles with this guard. They still require hours of fitting, filing and shaping.
(I have manufactured many guard for shotguns from two pieces of strap iron and a mounting stud. Used to torch weld the three pieces together before TIG, then lots fof filing and shaping. This is shown in my first book Fine Gunmaking.)
Thanks for your kind words Timan and RN,
Steve

SDH
It just takes that #10 to a whole new level. The first #10 prototype was a hornet made by "pete" and Don and engraved by Forte'. It had the prototype "Bananna" hammer in it. Questionable striker energy. Astheticly, it was the best in my minds eye, until this one you've created to be most excellant. I've not been inside a #10 since '97. I've heard C. Miller made great improvements to the firing system of that action in '05, kind of Rugerized it in a way. Are you familiar with these changes? If so, what is your opinion of what has been done in reguard to the new firing system.
Stuart

Oh yea, better card that screen door handle. Mother nature is looking for a nice slow rust on that.
Timan