I posted here earlier about obtaining photos of a Bramit device, but due to various attitudes towards silencers and my inappropriate responses to those people, I did not get much info. Anyway, I have some up with some ideas and would like to share them here.



I started with cutting back the front sight with a band saw, then machining down the muzzle to allow threading with a ½-28 die.



The silencer will be made with aluminum tubing and rubber wipes. The rubber wipes are held in position by spacers and compression from the screw on end caps. The rubber wipes will be about 1/8th to 1/16th inch thick with an X shaped slot cut into them to allow the bullet to pass through. The ½-28 insert comes out so that I can fit the silencer to another barrel machined down to telescope inside of the silencer like the original Bramit device. The muzzle would fit in the red colored baffle near the middle of the tube with the first several wipes and spacers removed.

The wipes trap gun powder gas better than baffles, but wear out quickly. They will hopefully remain intact for at least seven rounds and keep muzzle blast noise level down to less than 115 decibels; I hope. I have an ATF letter that says I can replace wipes after burning the old ones.



The ammunition is made to function with the pistol to completely seal the cylinder barrel gap. The bullet is seated below the mouth and is crimped with what looks like a heavy roll crimp. When the hammer is cocked, the cylinder rotates then moves forward about 1/16th of an inch to nearly close the gap, this allows the crimped mouth of the case to enter the forcing cone. Upon firing the crimp opens up and seals the gap. The cartridge is 93 grains and moves about 700 fps. My reloads are 93 grain cast loaded with 3.1 grains of NM04 and move about 1000 fps.

Look here; http://www.silencertests.com/ , http://www.subguns.com , and http://www.atf.treas.gov/ for information on owning and making silencers.

Any suggestions? Thanks.

Ranb

How about a video with and without the silencer? Sounds interesting!

I am well aware of the lagality of silencers and what is required to legally own them in the US. I have also been in several countries that much more easily allow private ownership of silencers.

That being said, I have exactly zero intrest in being part of a board that discusses silencers. THere are many, many, many boards out there that cater to that and similar gun products. Why would you not want to post there instead of a board that you openly admit is hostile to your pet project?

if soemone went on one of those boards and kept talking about putting double back on face do you think the board members would be excited about seeing that? Well, even that is a poor example because double rifles are almost universaly legal and few, if any, are illegally made and owned in the US each year.

You are dealing with a product that, for better or worse, is seen by most of the public and the members of this board as a device that is most appealing to a criminal element not represented here.

The argument can be made that a board memeber who does not like silencers and other guns of that sort should not read the silencer threads. That is valid - to a point. We are in an age where personal activity and association is just a mouse click away. Each AR memebr who regularly posts here is associatd with the other members who regularly post. Guilt by association is alive and well, so each member's actions affect every other member.

Don't believe me? Well, all I can say is that you have not been on the recieving end of a baseless civil lawsuit lately. It costs an incredible amount of money to gather enough evidence to convince the judge that they should throw out the case. And not all of us are lucky enough to have the money required to face baseless law suits.

If you still don't believe me, look at the current US presidential campaing. Both candidates are being attacked by what their endorsers are saying and representing. The most glaring example is Barak Obama's pastor, Reveredn Wright.

Another thing to consider is that many board members are Federal Firearm License holders. Honest FFL holders walk a tight line and go to great lengths to avoid association with anything that can be construed as a firearm law vilation. Let's face it, ther eare more unregistered silencers in the US than there are legally owned silencers. I have zero intyrest in being a member of a board that helps folks know how to build their own silencer, knowing all the time that criminals searching the web can find plans to the device on a board where I regularly post.

Whethere you like it or not, or even know it or not, your silencer psots do directly affect ME. I am politley and professionally asking you to carry on your silencer questions and posts on a board that is devioted to that end.

Thank you

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
How about a video with and without the silencer? Sounds interesting!

I will do it next time when I go to a state that allows use. I have a video of silencer use when I brought 510 whisper and 338 whisper suppressed rifles to VA when I had to work in the shipyard there. The video is here; http://media.putfile.com/Silencer-op-check-5 . While the difference between suppressed and unsuppressed is dramatic when standing near them, the results as recorded on the video are disappointing. The camcorder microphone and TV speakers are just not up to the task of capturing the extreme change in noise and the very short duration of the impulse noise.

Ranb

Marc_Stokeld

Please use better spelling in your posts, not doing so makes them somewhat difficult to understand. I see you are in Sawyer MN, I grew up near Carlton and lived there until I joined the Navy. I’m not really sure why you could have an attitude like the one presented here, but living in Minnesota may be why. When living in a state where a person may not own or possess a silencer for a firearm or a firearm equipped to have a silencer attached (97B.031); how long is it going to be before the state recognizes that almost all firearms are equipped or suitable for use with a silencer?

This is an international web board. No need to for anyone to put their provincial politics on the gunsmithing forum to try and convince people that a certain firearm is not suitable for use based on personal prejudice. I have posted this message in other places, but I figured the international flavor of this board is another good place to look for ideas. Can you name a board that would not be interested in a double rifle? Even the subguns and silencertests web boards have space where non-NFA weapons discussion is readily accepted.

While much of the public (did you mean American public?) does seem to think that silences are illegal, I do not think that is the case with the members of this board. What data do you have that shows silencers are more appealing to the criminal element than towards law abiding people? You think more criminals own and use silencers than good folk? I do not think so.

I think you should leave guilt by association out of the discussion here. Collective guilt is most associated with those people who want to judge a person by their race, religion, creed or national origin. We should not be bringing ourselves down to the level of racists and hate mongers. I am not going to be one of those cowards who is willing to knuckle under to the allegedly politically correct view of what I should be doing in my private life. To do so is morally repugnant to me. What if everyone thought they should limit their moral, harmless and legal activities just because they thought an immoral person might take advantage of them? It would be a sad world indeed.

Please show me the evidence to support your claim that there are more unregistered silencers in the US than there are legally owned silencers. Unless you have evidence to support this accusation, then you should not make the claim.

I used to be an FFL when I lived in Hawaii. I was careful to obey the law lest I lose the license or worse. For the most part, staying with-in the law was very easy. NFA law, while more complicated in some ways is usually easy to not fun afoul of. When the ATF routinely approves the tax forms to make buy or sell a silencer, why should it be considered risky? The biggest problem with NFA weapons in the USA is the poor record keeping by the ATF, not the people who legally own the firearms.

The US Patent office has plans for silencers readily available to the public. The ATF has always helped me stay within the law when dealing in weapons or making silencers whenever I asked. How interested are you in living in a country that helps folks know how to build their own silencer?

A search on the word silencer here shows 22 pages of threads/posts. Do you have the same message for all of the Americans who ask or talk about silencers? Thanks.

Ranb

Last time I checked, this was the gunsmithing forum, not the political forum.

Interesting. How loud is it?

The silencer shown attached to the revolver is a 22 rim fire silencer that has the same outside dimensions as the one I want to make for the 1895 Nagant. I have not sent in the ATF form 1 yet as I am considering using a revocable trust to own the silencer instead of it being in my name.

Even when I make it, I have to wait for an opportunity to test it when I travel away from WA as silencer use has been banned in WA since 1934.

I am posting a thread in the politics section for those who want to tell me how much they do not want to talk about silencers on Accurate Reloading Forums.

Ranb

Marc, with all due respect, IMHO you couldn't be more wrong in suggesting that this thread is inappropriate for a gunsmithing forum.

As you say, if you are not interested, then don't open or read the thread.

And BTW, I was one of those who criticized ranb40 for his personal attacks on Duane Wiebe in the other silencer thread he mentions. They were out of line, IMHO.

But that criticism had nothing to do with the subject matter. I commend him for his cool-headed and constructive attitude in this thread, and his admission that some of his comments in the other one were inappropriate.

Silencers are legal to own, and use, in many US jurisdictions, subject to proper governmental approvals. Their designs and function are interesting to many of us.

The same is true of fully automatic weapons, BTW.

To suggest that we should bow to benighted public attitudes and overly restrictive laws regarding ownership of these items by law-abiding citizens is wrongheaded IMHO.

There are just as many out there who would say we should not be discussing firearms or hunting at all. It's a slippery slope and I won't take the first false step down it.

ranb, I find this subject interesting, and would suggest that you not be put off discussing it here by anyone who doesn't. Good luck with your project.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Marc, with all due respect, IMHO you couldn't be more wrong in suggesting that this thread is inappropriate for a gunsmithing forum.

As you say, if you are not interested, then don't open or read the thread.

And BTW, I was one of those who criticized ranb40 for his personal attacks on Duane Weibe in the other silencer thread he mentions. They were out of line, IMHO.

But that criticism had nothing to do with the subject matter. I commend him for his cool-headed and constructive attitude in this thread, and his admission that some of his comments in the other one were inappropriate.

Silencers are legal to own, and use, in many US jurisdictions, subject to proper governmental approvals. Their designs and function are interesting to many of us.

The same is true of fully automatic weapons, BTW.

To suggest that we should bow to benighted public attitudes and overly restrictive laws regarding ownership of these items by law-abiding citizens is wrongheaded IMHO.

There are just as many out there who would say we should not be discussing firearms or hunting at all. It's a slippery slope and I won't take the first false step down it.

ranb, I find this subject interesting, and would suggest that you not be put off discussing it here by anyone who doesn't. Good luck with your project.

Thanks for typing all that....+1.

As mrlexma pointed it, this is an international board and such topics are interesting for anybody having interest in knowing about silencers.
I bought my first books and technical manuals about silencers from USA.

It is the responsability of the poster to be a law abiding citizen in his country.

Here they are totally legal, unregulated and sold over the counter. One can make one freely.

Guess what, they are never used by the gangsters...

Ranb, I would suggest you don't use this system of rubber with the Nagant especially when the dimensions of the can are originaly those of a .22 silencer.

Not enough volume for the expanding gasses and the rubber wipes will be destroyed before you empty your wheelgun.

Increase the volume and use metal baffles.

pm sent

I used to have a class 3 license and my recollection is that you must have a class 1 license to manufacture a suppressor and properly register it. Hell, I enjoy suppressed weapons and reading of some "culls" in Southern Africa, it appears that they are working tools of the conservation trade.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
Ranb, I would suggest you don't use this system of rubber with the Nagant especially when the dimensions of the can are originaly those of a .22 silencer.

Not enough volume for the expanding gasses and the rubber wipes will be destroyed before you empty your wheelgun.

Increase the volume and use metal baffles.

I was not intending to merely duplicate the dimensions of the 22lr can. From what I can tell the original Bramit device was about an inch wide and 4.5 inches long. So far my preliminary design is only an inch wide so that I can see the front sight over the can.

I guess I can always use a wider can for the Nagant as the one on my Browning HP covers the sights, but I am still able to line things up and put them in the black at 25 yards.

If I can not find a wipe design that I am sure will work the first time, then I will have to go with an aluminum baffle setup. I'm only using 3.1 grains of NM04 (like bullseye), I was hoping that this small amount of powder would be contained by the can without blowing away the wipes on the first shot, but maybe not. Do you think a 1.25 x 4 inch can would work?

Edited to add; I recall reading a post on silencertests.com about adding a wipe to the end of a silencer equipped with baffles. It was supposed to do wonders for the already quiet 22 rim fire silencers, but of course it affected accuracy a bit.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Chick:
I used to have a class 3 license and my recollection is that you must have a class 1 license to manufacture a suppressor and properly register it.

I was thinking of going the federal firearms license and special occupational tax class 2 (to manufacture) route, but it is much more expensive. As long as I only make silencers for my own personal use and not as a business, then the use of the ATF form 1 tax forms are the way to go. If I get a license, then I have to keep it current, which is $200 for an FFL for three years, and a minimum of $500 each year for the class 2 SOT. If I do not keep the FFL/SOT current, then I have to destroy the silencers or transfer them with a $200 tax paid on each. While I have spent $1400 in taxes on the ones I have made up to now, I get to keep them forever (or until Congress bans them) without ever paying another yearly fee.

The links I put in my first post are good ones for information on making or buying without a license in the USA.

Edited to add;

Subguns.com posted this link of a suppressed Nagant.

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/...ight=Nagant+revolver

http://s79.photobucket.com/albums/j1...t=P1000188.flv

Here is what I have been able to make for a 9m pistol and a 510 whisper carbine. Easy to make and effective, but nothing like a wipe can.




Ranb

Ranb

I would make all the internal baffles out of metal.
The last wipe, at the muzzle of the "silencer"
[actually supressor] could be rubber if you had a threaded endcap that allowed for easily replacement.

Some suppressors have a wire gauze inside to help with the "silencening effect".
Usually these type of suppressors have a central "tube" with holes in it that the bullet passes through, to keep the wire gauze from getting in the bullet path.

The internal baffels must be held in place very firmly, or they will be blown foward in the unit, and if out of allignment, the next round will trash the "can".

And might damage the shooter as well.

Being one of the responders in the previous thread on this topic, figured I would add my comments here.

I agree that this is a gunsmithing formum that should cover all topics, silencers included.

When I first read Mark's response I was disapointed that someone would respond in such a manner. Reading mrlexma's response, I want to add my ditto to his comments. To ranb40, your responses have been most courteous and informative.

Until last November I really didn't have any interest in silencers or suppressors. Then my oldest son bought one for his Sig 226 Tactical. What a hoot to shoot!! His interest in suppressors has caused me to become very interested. We are considering some different applications and are looking to submit paperwork to the ATF (Form 1) to allow us to build one. I am eager to use my gunsmithing and machinist training on this project.

Just my way of saying that I find this topic interesting and encourage ranb40 to continue to post with his experiences on this and other projects.

With all due respect to the members and the differing opinions, this is a perfectly acceptable topic. Handguns are illegal in parts of this country but we still discuss them here. The anti's like nothing better than firearms owners fighting among themselves. It's the old divide and conquer.

It is also good to get more people interested in various different opinions concerning things they are afraid of, like silencers and full auto guns.

I agree that we should openly discuss these things, and where is a better area than a GUNSMITHING forum?

I would like for people to post things like how to make silencers so I can know it also.

Will it oneday become illegal to even 'think' about things that the Murkan Gubment don't like?

If I knew how to post info about illegally converting guns to full auto I would do it.

I know it kind of pisses off those assholes in the US Federal Government, but their authority ends at.......... their borders, and their control ends right there also.

Let the panty wetting crowd go elsewhere to discuss the procedures of how to ask their nanny government what they are allowed to do, and let's keep this forum open to information.

Keep posting cool things like how to build a silencer.

Does anyone know how to build a cruise missle, an atomic warhead and a navigation device? If so, let's post that also.

Screw the Murkan Gubment!

There are gun clubs over here where if you show up to shoot without a silencer fitted, you will be frowned at severly.
Shame is, you can't get a relvover unless it's got a long barrel and bit of a stock so it is leagal.

Very interesting thread and very informative. We've kicked around the idea of manufacturing suppressors for some time, just don't have the time with all the other work in the shop. What kind of market is out there? I've used supressed rifles for deer collection when I worked for the VA Game Dept and found them to be fascinating, and dang fun to shoot. More info, please!
Walt

As far as I know most of the 36 (soon to be 38) states that allow silencer ownership do not allow their use when hunting game, although some allow them for hunting non-game animals.

You may want to try posting on http://www.subguns.com or http://www.silencertests.com for advice on making silencers as a business. It can be expensive as the FFL costs $200 for the first three years and the class 2 SOT for manufacturing title 2 weapons is $500 per year at a minimum. I only make silencers as a hobby, so it costs a $200 tax for each, instead of $500 a year for an unlimited number. Stop paying the yearly SOT tax and go out of business, then you have to transfer all of the stuff with a $200 tax for each.

From what I have heard, it is not cost effective to make silencers for sale on a manual lathe and expect to turn a profit. But as a hobbyist, it matters little to me. I just use a cheap Chinese lathe.

Ranb

ranb40
I do not have a lot of experience with silencers, however while I was Europe I helped make a few. They were not like anything else I have ever seen. They were mostly for military sniper rifles but several were for .22 cal pistols. I cant say how much of a db reduction they made but they were quieter than my air rifle. If you are interested send me a PM and I will pass along what I know.

My design is evolving. It is now a 1.0 by 4.5 inch can with five or six baffles and two wipes. Considering the amount of time I put into drawing silencers, they usually end up different after they finally get off of the lathe.

Ranb

According to the info I have you can in Texas, hunt non game animals, which includes wild pigs, with a [legally registered of course] silencer or full auto gun.

You can hunt these same animals at night with an artificial light, and or night vision.

When hunting at night the local Game Warden would like a heads up call, giving the ranch you are hunting on in case he gets a "shots fired at night, by some poachers call".

It saves him a drive out.

I've decided to go with a wipeless can. It will be a two stage unit with a 1 x 4.5 inch tube attached to the muzzle to allow me to see over the sights. It will also have a removable 1.5 x 3.5 inch section on the end if I want it to be Hollywood quiet.

Unfortunately I can not start to work on it until I get out of the hell hole that is San Diego CA.

Ranb