for you CNC folks, what do you think the production cost of a Masuer bottom metal such as the Blackburn or the Sunnyhill is.

1. cost of steel (fixed per unit)
2. Cost to program (fixed -variable per unit)
3. tooling cost (fixed - variable per unit)
4. cost to run each part (fixed per unit)

That would be all over the place depending on the size and marketplace of the shop. Union or not?

One thing for sure, no one ever paid for a 250K-500K CNC machine by making bottom metal or other gun parts, much less made a good living too. You need a primary market to make your machine work enough hours; the gun stuff is usually a side line. Just ask Ruger.

Trigger

I am not suggesting I want to start a business making them. Rather, every once in awhile there seems to be a demand for certain units that is left unfulfilled by the current providers.

And there are machine shops all over the place screaming for business right now becasue they want to be able to make the payment on those $250,000 machines before the bank takes them away. A run of this and a run of that might be profitable.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
for you CNC folks, what do you think the production cost of a Masuer bottom metal such as the Blackburn or the Sunnyhill is.

1. cost of steel (fixed per unit)
2. Cost to program (fixed -variable per unit)
3. tooling cost (fixed - variable per unit)
4. cost to run each part (fixed per unit)

Please add to the cost:

+ quality controlsystem
+ marketing
+ Logistics
+ skilled people

22WRF

The cost of steel per unit is only fixed IF you buy enough at a time for the production run of parts. In case you have not been aware the cost of steel has been all over in price the past few years.
Just a few months ago I ran out of 3/8" round cold drawn 12L14 screw steel. OK this is the common off the shelf screw steel. Well the vendor was out and expected a 2 month delivery wait, also the cost was expected to go up about 20%.
Steel for this size of guards will have to be cut from 11L17 rectangle or large 12L14 or C1215 square key stock that has been resawn. This is why Williams has gone to a drop forged blank to make their units from.

This also affects the tooling cost, for example. One of the cutters we use to saw most of our parts is a 3/32" x 4 inch slitting saw. 4 years ago the cost of this saw was $12.00 per unit. currently it is costing $23.00 for the same slitting saw.

Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Trigger

I am not suggesting I want to start a business making them. Rather, every once in awhile there seems to be a demand for certain units that is left unfulfilled by the current providers.

And there are machine shops all over the place screaming for business right now becasue they want to be able to make the payment on those $250,000 machines before the bank takes them away. A run of this and a run of that might be profitable.

I get it. I tried this some time ago in the Houston area and could not find a shop willing to touch a gun part. They are so afraid of the BATF and/or real or imagined tort liabilities that they shut the door.

I suppose you might find a gun-savy owner that knows enough about firearms to consider it but be prepared for a lot of rejection.

Anohter poster tried more recently and had some luck with small, unrecognizable parts but the most cost efficient producers (by unit price) wanted very large minimum orders to take the job.

Thanks Jim.

Once again, what I am saying is that I know of a couple of very talented machine shops that need business badly or they are going to go belly up. So I was thinking of having a couple of runs of something made up. Might take awhile to sell the stuff, but if enough units could be made at one time to absorb some of the fixed costs it might be worth it. (For example, maybe a run of Blackburn type units in .375 for 1917 Enfields. Or maybe a couple dozen units for Mex Mausers. Etc.)

22,
All you need is a drawing of the part you want to produce.....label it a "corner brace".....anything but a gun part.

Take the drawing to the shops and ask for quotes in the quantities you want to buy them in.

They'll tell you what the cost will be.......if they're serious about wanting the work, they'll bid competitively.

However, don't ask them to bid the parts and then sit on them until they're sold.....that's another business entirely!!!

PM me a photo of the parts you wish to have made and maybe I can help you with a drawing to have the shops bid on!!
Vapo

Vapo

I can do better than that. I will just take a Blackburn guard with me and see what they have to say.

Isn't there an online "virtual" machine shop???

You send them the specs, what steel, what heat treat, etc, and they machine the parts?

Anyone else know what I am talking about?

quote:

Originally posted by DeBee:
Isn't there an online "virtual" machine shop???

You send them the specs, what steel, what heat treat, etc, and they machine the parts?

Anyone else know what I am talking about?

There are many of them. This is just one.

http://www.hobbymachine.net/

The virtual machine shop i have used is
www.emachineshop.com but I haven't used them in awhile

Hello 22WRF,
You may or may not be aware of a device known as a lazer tracer which uses a ruby tipped laser and can literally duplicate about anything you wish dimension wise and then this is programmed into the CNC unit. Upon measuring at critical points, several, you have a three dimensional drawing that will work quite well. Is it accurate? As accurate as physically possible at this stage of the "art" (think in terms of reverse engineering) Another common name is Farro Arm and have used them myself to duplicate the specs on M14 rear sight components/bolts/etc.
The services of a trained ME and the machine itself will run in the area of 60-75.00 per hour, (that is a friendly rate) but to trace a bottom metal unit I would think should not take much more than an hour. It is doubtful if your local machine shop/gunsmith will have or know of this item , but you do not know until you ask and might shock you who would have one???? Any universities in your area doing some government (federal) mechanical eng. work (not intelligence related) for they may well have this device in their lab/workshop???? When you view the project in question, the cost of the material is not that prohibitive, but as mentioned, it is just not in the cards for a shop to buy and devote machine tools to the gun parts/firearms industry.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
for you CNC folks, what do you think the production cost of a Masuer bottom metal such as the Blackburn or the Sunnyhill is.

1. cost of steel (fixed per unit)
2. Cost to program (fixed -variable per unit)
3. tooling cost (fixed - variable per unit)
4. cost to run each part (fixed per unit)

Estimate using a FADAL 3016 millingcenter.

1:steelcost 1$
2rogramming: small batches 1hr. Large batches 5hr including optimizing
3:Toolingcost: Fixtures 200$ + variables of 2$ pr unit
4: ½hr if small batches, fully manned. 10minutes if large batches, partly manned.


Acording all you other contributers idears of the posibilities of making money on modern CNC mashines in the guns industri. Sorry, but you are way out of line
In my opinion producing parts to that industry, is making cheap material into expencive stuff, using minor toolcost, and a little thinking.

From having 6 of those cnc mashines producing only parts for that kind of products, i can asure you that it is mutch more profitable than producing to other branches. Althoug our laburcosts is more than 40$ pr hour(for the common guy on the floor), it is an OK buisines.

We are curently planning to instal 2 more Multitasking mashines (combined lathes, and 5axis milling, with barfeeders and robots) Just desperatly trying to keep up with demands

Forgot telling that we are only producing parts for own use

Jorgen

Who is "Our Own".

Driver:

I have VERY serious ethical problems with copying some one else's work without getting prior approval and paying them a royalty.

IN the manufacturing world it is a common and accepted practice to "reverse engineer" a part.

You can ethicly reverse engineer a part from the part itself, a customer drawing of that part, a "Napkin CAD" drawing, or a third party drawing with their permission.

You cannot manufacture a part of an original drawing without the designers (original manufacturer's) permission.

I am a degreed mechanical engineer with many years in production environments, including a lot of internatiol work (trust me, A LOT of our stuff gets copied in other countries). I am well-versed in machining and welding capabilites, from the most modernto to the oldest way-I was a blacksmith before injuries made me put the hammers down. I also make custom guns and own a couple of businesses. I just checked a Blackburn bottom metal in my shop and it showed a copyright date of 1988. Trust me when I say the margins in the gun industry are razor thin, with most people doing it because they love guns. I still say I have VERY serious ethical problems with what Driver proposed. I gurantee you, I go out of my way to do business with people like that.

Let's ask Jim Wisner how he would feel if someone copied one of his propiretary designs.

Let's ask Chic how he would feel if someone paid him to make a custom stock, and then they started slinging them out on a Dakota machine and selling them.

Driver, what do you do for a living? I am just wondering if it is something you make in a business that you own that is a propritary design. I know that on the net, in real life, wherever, people always have the answers for how a busienss owner should do something. But you know what, those speaking the loudest are never business owners and they are basing their statements based on theories that they make up in their minds (just check all of the business advice given the the Dressels recently).

I always stay out of the pissing matches that go on here for several reasons. One, I am trying to run 2 busiensses and I have a life. What little time I am willing to devote to a semi-make-believe-internet-world is better spent not even reading, much less joining, these trivial pissing matches. And I never said it is illegal and you would burn in Hell for doing it. I just said that I, me personally, had serious ethical problems with some one who would do what was proposed.

Why don't you call Ted tomorrow and get his input on the idea. Even if he does not care, I, me personally, have no use for the person who would do it. Ted worked hard to get where he is and I, me personally, think his work should be respected.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Driver:

I have VERY serious ethical problems with copying some one else's work without getting prior approval and paying them a royalty.

I think Mr. Blackburn and Sunny Hill kinda stole the idea from Mauser Oberndorf. I bet they don't pay royalty to Peter Paul Mausers progeny. I have no need to use a Blackburn part exactly. I can use a 1909 Argentine part and modify it to my taste.

No Blackburn patents that I could find out about. And from what I have read on here, there are certain parts that these folks just will not make anymore. for example, Customstox said that he has been waiting over a year for a Mex Mauser part from Blackburn. And others have said that Blackburn will not make any bottom metal for 1917 Engfields anymore.

The way I see it, it certainly is not worth spending one hell of a bunch of money setting up a shop to make a few gun parts. But it might be economical to find a shop that is not operating at capacity and wants to use what it already has and is willing to float a deal just to get some extra cash money in the door.

And I gotta figure that there are at least 20 guys out there in the next 5 years that might want to customize a 1917 and maybe 20 guys that might want to customize a mex. Now to figure out a few more things that folks might want and then approach one of these machine shops that needs some work!

and yes, lets ask Jim Wisner if he pays a royalty to winchester every time he sells a part he makes for a pre-64 model 70.

No 22, they did not steal the design. Every manufacturer you mention does theirs a little differently. Maybe you don't know enough about the bottom metal to be making a legitimate statement, or maybe you are trying to draw me into a fight. I am not being lured into a pissing match here and this is the last post I am making on this subject.

Y'all can talk about bottom metal, Ted, me, whatever, as much as you like now with no fear of me wasting any more of my precious time on it and saying something that may hurt your feelings.

Mr. Stokeld

I can say that I have given business to Ted both for his bottom metal and his triggers. And I have a few 1909 Argentines sitting right here in front of me with Wisner straddle floorplates on them. In fact, I have purchased now I think 7 or 8 of those floorplates from Jim. So yea, I know about bottom metal.
I guess the only other thing to say is that if you don't want to get into a pissing match here then just be careful that you don't piss into the wind.

Marc, I may be wrong, but I think the copyright on the inside of the bottom metal is for the Blackburn name. I may also be mixing that up with a Trademark. Copyrights apply to works of art, movies, stories etc. and not to mechanical parts. A patent can be applied for on those. Although I would doubt that you would get a patent on a magazine box unless it was a new approach and not just dimensions.

Marc.

The only item that is trademarked and copyrighted on the Blackburn guard is the 4 radii and final shape of the guard bow itslef.

I know as I was a witness in a copyright lawsuit that Blackburn had going several years ago. End result was Blackburn spent money for two years with his lawyer and the lawsuit was finally dropped.

This is why I copied the 1909 guard bow shape on my standard units I used to make. I figured it is public domain and just let the oringal Mauser company sue me since they no longer exist.

The inside dims of the units are also public domain as the math required has been published so often now in many forms.

I made over 400 units of differnet guards on a old Bridgeport Hyd profiler from 1992 to 2004, now that I am using cnc it is a differnet story all together for production of a guard. I used to be able to make a complete unit on the profiler or by hand from start to finish in 8 to 10 hours depending on which unit. I normally did them in batches of 5 per size. IE five 30-06 Mauser 98 std depth guards.

I have one cnc program I have run for a 375 on a Enfield action. Just to do the magazine frame as I call it. No bow or the bottom surface the floorplte sits on. Just a piece of 1.25" x 2.50" x 6.50" cold drawn 1018 in the cnc mill and let her rip.
7 differnet cutters and lot's of coolant, and even more chips, then 35 min later the frame is done, except for the sloting of the inside rear magazine well, and hinge slot.

However I have 8 hours proofing just that progran alone, and it still needs to be refined more as I only made 4 GOOD units from it.

Just some more to think about for now.

Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith

Hey Jim,
If you don't mind me asking, what solid and cam programs are you using? SolidWorks and SolidCam will handle up to 5 "live" axis, and you can actually have a 6axis machine, if you control goes to "hold" on the one not selected...

that is, If I have XYZABC axis, I can select any 5 of them for a milling operation.


Any, I certainly can feel for you on the proofing... but if you need anyone to "throw away" the rough drafts for you......

jeffe

I make my own bottom metal for the actions that I make. I have no ethical problem with it. bottom line? why should I waste money with them when I can make the part. Now if it was an integral part of the the latest greatest technology, that would be different. But it's a 100 + year old whore gun part, that was around at least 30 years before Blackburn was even born. If you want to make your own bottom metal, by all means make it.
Timan

So now I go back to my original question. Once all of the engineering is done, what should a part cost per unit?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
So now I go back to my original question. Once all of the engineering is done, what should a part cost per unit?

50$
check your pm