I'm getting a bit weary of being told that i need to spend $$$$ that I do not have on "top quality" rifle barrels.

Our (my wife & I) combined yearly income has been cut by about 66% in the last year. We have 1/3 the income that we used to have.

You see I'm one of the schmucks that thought that if I learned an industrial trade, I could live & retire comfortably. I never wanted to be rich & I never wanted to benefit from anyone else having their income diminished. I dispise the "Wal Mart" economy mindset.

So, here I am, under/unemployed in an economically depressed area, too old to be favorably considered for most good paying work (yes Martha there is such a thing as age discrimination) & too young to draw my retirement. I'm "between the cracks".

So far, I have been able to (barely) keep my head above water & make the mortgage payments on my 106 acre "little piece of paradise" near the Canadian border. It is hard for me to justify let alone find money to spend on rifle building.

Have I sniveled & whined about it? No, but when I make inquiries about inexpensive alternatives to top quality barrels for my budget gun building projects, I get a lot of condescending posts pointing out my poor judgement in my choices.

It doesn't end there either. When I ask for advice on correcting problems that arise, I get the "just spend the money & take it to a competant gunsmith" BS.

For one thing, I haven't found a competant gusmith that can do the work within an hours drive even if I had the $$$ to pay for their services. That's why I try to do as nuch as i can MYSELF.

So please excuse my rant, but I just had to vent a bit. I the future, maybe people will spare judgment when they probably have no idea of my situation & the challenges I face in order to continue my gun building hobby.

Including my latest purchase of a 1910 Mexican Mauser action, I have a total of 4 M98 actions to work with. I have 3 very nice 8mm bore take off barrels, an E R Shaw #2 contour blank .264 barrel & 2 stocks to work with. That does not include my current 8X57 Classic Oberndorf project that is nearing completion. If I can scrimp on barrel cost & get 2 decent barrels for the price of 1 top quality barrel & still get acceptable performance, that means i can complete an additional project.

So, in the future, please spare me the critisism if you can't contribute some constructive information.

OK, rant over.

Maybe you should save the money for something you need, like food or mortgage payments when by your own account you already have several rifles that will do the same thing?

I've been broke or so close you couldn't tell the difference several times and the first thing I did was stop any non-essential expenditures. Take that as criticism or good advice, all the same to me.

Few people here would recommend the use of a low-end barrel without your prefacing your request for recommendations with two statements: 1) acceptable accuracy of ~2.5MOA, and, 2) ~$100 price point.

If you just want a barrel to install, look for take-offs in the Classifieds. You can often find them there for less than a new, low-end barrel, and they're already contoured, blued, crowned, and chambered.

For me, Douglas would be the least expensive barrel maker I would consider, with Shilen, PacNor, and Krieger on the other end. Each of these makers offer a mid-grade barrel.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Maybe you should save the money for something you need, like food or mortgage payments when by your own account you already have several rifles that will do the same thing?

I've been broke or so close you couldn't tell the difference several times and the first thing I did was stop any non-essential expenditures. Take that as criticism or good advice, all the same to me.

Maybe you should spend some money for reading comprehension classes as nowhere did I say that I was not making my mortgage payments & I'm certainly not getting food stamps.

Your post was a perfect example of the exact condescending tone I cited & really just shows your arrogance & possibly a bit of ignorance too.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Few people here would recommend the use of a low-end barrel without your prefacing your request for recommendations with two statements: 1) acceptable accuracy of ~2.5MOA, and, 2) ~$100 price point.

If you just want a barrel to install, look for take-offs in the Classifieds. You can often find them there for less than a new, low-end barrel, and they're already contoured, blued, crowned, and chambered.

For me, Douglas would be the least expensive barrel maker I would consider, with Shilen, PacNor, and Krieger on the other end. Each of these makers offer a mid-grade barrel.

George

To me, there's no reason a good 98K barrel can't shoot sub MOA.




I would suspect a good Swede would do likewise.

The fact is, the posts I am referring to ARE about miltary take off barrels & bargain barrels. So the inquiries are "prefaced" as you suggested.

I do look for take-off barrels, that's the point. I don't ask for people looking down their noses @ me for doing so.

I would rather buy a take-off W/O the blueing, crowning, etc & make the judgement as to whether I want to go further.

I usually take all the barrel talk with a grain of salt. I buy barrels where I get a deal and generally like to spend my available money on other parts of the package. I have five or six projects going right now. I am working on a 300H&H, a 218 bee I just finished, a 7x57, a 280 AI, a 425 WR and a 416 taylor. I am using 2 McGowan octagons, 3 Adams and Bennets and a Douglas. I paid $90 each for the McGowans in their unclaimed bin, $90 on sale each at different times for the Adams and Bennets at Midway, and $110 on eBay a few years ago for the Douglas. I have test shot all of them in "mule" stocks and all shot near 1" (and sometimes much better). I do my own work, so it's simple to install the barrel, stick it in a fiberglass stock and test. If it won't shoot, I fix it.

Everybody has their own thing. I personally never saw the need to brag about having a $500-$1000 barrel with a Name, in the hope of maybe 1/4" better accuracy. I grew up as a serious varmint hunter, so I will spend the money when it gets the job done, it's just not needed in most hunting rifles.

If you are having a high end custom built, it hurts the value not to spend the money, but then again, I have never seen the cost of a custom recovered anyway, unless you wait 30 years for inflation and death of the builder to take effect. I suspect that manufacturing of all types has improved so that it's pretty hard not to build a decent barrel, barring a screwup.

Incidentally, I have no recent experience, but some of the worst barrels I have ever personally used or seen installed for friends have been the budget grades from the big name bench rest producers. Two smiths in my area with a lot of experience finally banned one brand from their shop because of all the problems they caused. These may have improved since then, due to the general improvement in barrel making.

Expecting any low-end or OEM barrel (e.g., Shaw, A&B) to shoot MOA and hoping it will are two different things.

There are so many factors that can affect accuracy: bore diameter consistency, quality of rifling, quality of steel, bedding, crown, trigger, ammunition, optics, shooter technique and ability, etc.

Starting with a better barrel helps to remove some of the gremlins that can work against you; that is why most here recommend them.

George
P.S. I am not privy to the threads where you were offended by the respondents' attitudes, but you've been here 10 years. You know how some folks are.

Wildcat,

Call a smith who stays busy like Mark Penrod and ask him about take-off barrels. Mark always has tons of them laying about and the last time I had lunch with him he told me he takes a pickup truck load of them a couple time a year and sells them as scrap. I'm sure he would sell a few cheap.

Good luck, I know all about this economy. I too did all the right things, went to a good college, good grad school, etc and we are still sitting here eating our seed corn for the past year.

My wife and I are both very fortunate to have great jobs and make good money, and I'm not able to have so many fun projects going. I have to pick and choose and plan. I have asked similar questions and am not offended by peoples responses. They're just that, their responses. Take them or leave them. I have been told before not to do certain things because it should only be done by a gunsmith, sometimes I reflect and agree, sometimes I ignore that person. It seems you're taking the comments personally, as if the person knows your checking balance and is making a jab at you.

I don't think that anybody should feel the need to justify their conservative style of rifle building by explaining their finances. It sounds like you've been hit hard, but not severely enough that you have to choose between hobbies and making multiple mortgage payments.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Expecting any low-end or OEM barrel (e.g., Shaw, A&B) to shoot MOA and hoping it will are two different things.

There are so many factors that can affect accuracy: bore diameter consistency, quality of rifling, quality of steel, bedding, crown, trigger, ammunition, optics, shooter technique and ability, etc.

Starting with a better barrel helps to remove some of the gremlins that can work against you; that is why most here recommend them.

George
P.S. I am not privy to the threads where you were offended by the respondents' attitudes, but you've been here 10 years. You know how some folks are.

Well, you are correct. Fact is, except for the 1st 3 factors, (bore diameter consistency, quality of rifling, quality of steel,) I have control over all the others.

W/modern machining practices, the 1st 3 are not as much of a factor as they once were. But yes they are a factor none the less.

That is why I prefer either a blank contoured barrel in the caliber of choice (that I can afford) or, a really good military take off.

There are thousands of great 98K barrels from pre or early WWII productions that are thrown away because, for some reasons, folks seem to think the 8X57 is an inferior caliber. I have several of them.

It looks like the 6.5X55 Swede barrels are a different story as these guns tend to be shot to death!

I am trying to locate an unused M38 or M96 new in the wrapper, but all I can find are an arm & a leg. The (new in wrapper)18" M94s are plentiful & cheap, but that's way too short for me.

As far as being offended by previous posts?

I would say it's more of an annoying factor than offending. Still, sometimes the arrogance gets to a point where it does get to be offending.

Do yourself a favor and post a WTB ad for the barrels you seek, then pay what you can afford.

George

WJ, here's a few constructive suggestions from someone who's been there and done that and liked the results (MOST of the time!).

As a last-ditch effort to improve accuracy, you might consider fire-lapping. I've gotten excellent results that way with several barrels. Just be sure to use jacketed bullets.

Also, frequently a takeoff barrel becomes a takeoff because of shooter error. Things like failure to clean properly, failure to tailor loads, poor rifle assembly and poor shooter performance are some of the things we've seen over the years.

Not to mention rebarreling simply because the owner wanted a different cartridge but didn't want another rifle! Who here has NOT done this at one time or another?

My point is that a takeoff barrel is always a gamble but can sometimes be a gamble worth taking. I suggest you contact your friendly local accuracy smith and ask him about barrels coming from clients who might be subject to rebarreling for one of these 'reasons' (grin).
Regards, Joe

Wildcat,

I think the main problem here is that you are putting too much stock into what others have as their own preferences and not simply just doing what you want to do, and if others disagree then it is their issue and not your own personal one.

Don't make it yours because then you'll never be happy about it.

I see nothing wrong with building up a gun yourself as cheaply as possible, nor do I see an issue with commissioning someone to build "The Best of The Best" for you. The main thing is that the person making that decision is doing it for himself and not to make someone else happy.

And yeah, both ends of that spectrum have their hazards and how people choose usually show which end they are most wary about, which often shows up in posts.

But face it, whatever you build you are not going to need to shoot protecting your family from invading communist paratroopers riding man-eating grizzly bears so if the end of the project/journey isn't to your liking you can just keep going until it is, even if you have to spend some more time or money that someone suggested to you in the first place. But the main thing IMHO is to keep it your own journey and not someone elses.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
WJ, here's a few constructive suggestions from someone who's been there and done that and liked the results (MOST of the time!).

As a last-ditch effort to improve accuracy, you might consider fire-lapping. I've gotten excellent results that way with several barrels. Just be sure to use jacketed bullets.

Also, frequently a takeoff barrel becomes a takeoff because of shooter error. Things like failure to clean properly, failure to tailor loads, poor rifle assembly and poor shooter performance are some of the things we've seen over the years.

Not to mention rebarreling simply because the owner wanted a different cartridge but didn't want another rifle! Who here has NOT done this at one time or another?

My point is that a takeoff barrel is always a gamble but can sometimes be a gamble worth taking. I suggest you contact your friendly local accuracy smith and ask him about barrels coming from clients who might be subject to rebarreling for one of these 'reasons' (grin).
Regards, Joe

Thanks Joe. That's the kind of (non judgemental) helpful advice I'm looking for.

What I'm really looking for is a new in wrapper M38 Swede barrel.

They were plentiful a few year back but I suspect all the guys rebarreling Turks have snapped them up. And I'm sure some have found their way onto Mex Mauser actions as well.

Right now the M34 18" carbine barrels are available new in the wrapper for $75. 18" is too short form my liking.

The one Husqvarna 23" M38 unused, as new barrel I have located is more than 2X that.

The quaundry I'm in is that I originally bought a blank, discontinued #2 contour E R Shaw barrel in .264 for a great price. I was going to have Dennis Olsen thread, crown & chamber it in 6.5X55 for use on my VZ500 commercial IL, LR M98 action.

Just recently I bought a 1910 Mexican SR 98 action so plans have changed or might change.

PLAN A: IF I can find a new, unused M38 Swede barrel I want to use that to make a Mexican/Swede hybrid.

It would simply be a matter of screwwing it on the Mex action & checking headspace. If needed, headspace could be adjusted when I have the contour turned & crown done.

THEN, I could sell the E R Shaw .264 for the small $$$ I have in it (I already have an offer) & look for a bargain on a 6mm barrel for the LR VZ500.

PLAN B: Stay W/the E R Shaw .264 barrel on the VZ500 & go ahead W/the 6.5X55 plans for that combo.

I have found a 6mm Rem FN Mauser barrel in VG condition for a pittance. The reason it is so cheap is that it has buggered up threads. I can have it turned & re-threaded to SR & use that on the Mexi.

I would rather go W/PLAN A, but it's looking like PLAN B might be more viable. Either way I want to end up W/a 6.5X55 Classic Oberndorf style rifle to go W/my 8X57 of similar pattern & a svelt 6mm rem on a petite classic sporter style stock W/a barrel band front swivel stud.

The only reservations I have about PLAN B is whether the '60s-'70s vintage 6mm Rem has a twist rate fast enough for 100gr bullets.

Then of course there would be

PLAN C: Stay W/the E R Shaw .264 barrel on the VZ500 & go ahead W/the 6.5X55 plans for that combo.

Then look for a bargain on a new, blank, #1 contour 6mm barrel for the SR Mexican action.

If the Rem bbl says 6MM then it's probably a 9" twist, possibly a 10". All the 12" twist 244s were marked 244 Rem.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
Wildcat,

I think the main problem here is that you are putting too much stock into what others have as their own preferences and not simply just doing what you want to do, and if others disagree then it is their issue and not your own personal one.

Don't make it yours because then you'll never be happy about it.

I see nothing wrong with building up a gun yourself as cheaply as possible, nor do I see an issue with commissioning someone to build "The Best of The Best" for you. The main thing is that the person making that decision is doing it for himself and not to make someone else happy.

And yeah, both ends of that spectrum have their hazards and how people choose usually show which end they are most wary about, which often shows up in posts.

But face it, whatever you build you are not going to need to shoot protecting your family from invading communist paratroopers riding man-eating grizzly bears so if the end of the project/journey isn't to your liking you can just keep going until it is, even if you have to spend some more time or money that someone suggested to you in the first place. But the main thing IMHO is to keep it your own journey and not someone elses.

Na, I'm note putting so much stock in what others post,

It just gets annoying reading all the posts that just seem to be trying to convey the "I know better than you" attitude.

It seems like I have to wade through all the knee deep crap about this that & whatever to get to the posts that are pertenant to the question I asked in the 1st place.

I just felt like I needed to vent a bit. I'm all better now.

I dont think your request is outta line or un-do-able.

I have two original mauser barrels a 98 in 280 and a 38 in 6.5 and both will do a moa or less.

And while I do not have a Shaw, the ones I've been around that were installed correctly were also moa or better.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

<<<<<<SNIP....>>>
It seems like I have to wade through all the knee deep crap about this that & whatever to get to the posts that are pertenant to the question I asked in the 1st place.

I just felt like I needed to vent a bit. I'm all better now.

Just pretend you are a diamond miner in darkest Africa, sorting through the clay slurry to find the true gemstones.

There, now the clay doesn't seem so bad does it?

Vent all you want.
For many of us the process is the most important part.

Many of these guys just act as a general contractor for their version of a 98 Sporting Oberndorf replica just because they can mentally say they are filling some sort of hole in the safe.

Who is to say that rebuilding a Type I Carcano wreck into a plinker is not just as much fun?

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
If the Rem bbl says 6MM then it's probably a 9" twist, possibly a 10". All the 12" twist 244s were marked 244 Rem.
Regards, Joe

Yeah, I googled "6mm Remington twist rate" & found a lot of info on just that sort of implication.

I think I'll call them & see what the length is.

If it's 23" or more, I think I'll gamble the $45 they're asking for it.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
If the Rem bbl says 6MM then it's probably a 9" twist, possibly a 10". All the 12" twist 244s were marked 244 Rem.
Regards, Joe

Yeah, I googled "6mm Remington twist rate" & found a lot of info on just that sort of implication.

I think I'll call them & see what the length is.

If it's 23" or more, I think I'll gamble the $45 they're asking for it.

I just bought the barrel. Light sporter contour 24". It IS marked 6mm Remington so chances are it is 1 in 9" twist or there abouts.

Throat, bore,etc, are supposed to be VG. Seems "Bubba" tried to screw it into something he shouldn't have. I specifically asked if "Bubba" had used a pipe wrench or something of that sort as a barrel vice substitute. Supposidly there are no pipe wrench scars on the barrel.

$54.20 shipped. I think I can afford that gamble.

Looks like it's PLAN B:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

<<<<<<SNIP....>>>
It seems like I have to wade through all the knee deep crap about this that & whatever to get to the posts that are pertenant to the question I asked in the 1st place.

I just felt like I needed to vent a bit. I'm all better now.

Just pretend you are a diamond miner in darkest Africa, sorting through the clay slurry to find the true gemstones.

There, now the clay doesn't seem so bad does it?

Yeah, but I don't get to keep the diamonds!

2 things to avoid in life, barrels with pipe wrench scars and women with harpoon scars.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
2 things to avoid in life, barrels with pipe wrench scars and women with harpoon scars.

AND, women that steal your "chew" when ya kiss 'em!

An Adam's and Bennet bbl from Midway will shoot under an inch if chambered correctly.

Hand polish the tool marks out with a lap or steel wool or something to reduce coppering early on.

I put on on a friends action in 35 Whelen last year, and it cuts hole touching hole with the Norma bullets.

Ben

quote:

Originally posted by Ben Hooper:
An Adam's and Bennet bbl from Midway will shoot under an inch if chambered correctly.

Hand polish the tool marks out with a lap or steel wool or something to reduce coppering early on.

I put on on a friends action in 35 Whelen last year, and it cuts hole touching hole with the Norma bullets.

Ben

I was planning on lapping the .264 blank #2 contour E R Shaw barrel I bought for $65 before I send it out for chambering.

Dennis E Olsen should be able to handle the threading, chambering & crown job W/good results & he's wicked fast turn around.

Hopefully, the FN 6mm take-off barrel won't need any bore work. If it loads up W/copper I will proably "fire lap" it.

Also,People sell used Benchrest bbls for pennies on the dollar that they think will not agg., when the problem is often their own.

You can turn the contour down or have it done for about $30.

Most users report that Shaw barrels are as accurate as any.

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
Most users report that Shaw barrels are as accurate as any.

I posted a thread inquireing about E R Shaw quality & the vast majority of E R Shaw barrel users posted similar opinions.

There was a handfull of very vocal detractors, mostly gunsmiths, that were scathing in their remarks.

Over all, I don't think there was a single E R Shaw OWNER/USER that was not satisfied.

To be honest, the barrel I purchased does look a little "rough" not in respect to machining quality, but the lack of fine finish.

I expect to have the bore lapped before it goes out for chambering & the rough, as machined, exterior is a non issu., So far I am completely satisfied W/what I got for the $85 I paid shipped to my door..

I will have $255 in the whole barrel, (plus shipping to my gunsmith) threaded, chambered, headspaced & crowned.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
Most users report that Shaw barrels are as accurate as any.

I posted a thread inquireing about E R Shaw quality & the vast majority of E R Shaw barrel users posted similar opinions.

Over all, I don't think there was a single E R Shaw OWNER/USER that was not satisfied.

Than you didn't read that thread very carefully (IE: you ignored anyone that didn't support your opinion), as several owners/users reported their dis-satification with the product.
As a FORMER e.r.SHIT owner/user I'll never touch another one of their copper grinding pieces of crap.

But than again, as your willing to take a raw turd and polish it in hopes of making a diamond .........

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
Most users report that Shaw barrels are as accurate as any.

I posted a thread inquireing about E R Shaw quality & the vast majority of E R Shaw barrel users posted similar opinions.

Over all, I don't think there was a single E R Shaw OWNER/USER that was not satisfied.

Than you didn't read that thread very carefully (IE: you ignored anyone that didn't support your opinion), as several owners/users reported their dis-satification with the product.
As a FORMER e.r.SHIT owner/user I'll never touch another one of their copper grinding pieces of crap.

But than again, as your willing to take a raw turd and polish it in hopes of making a diamond .........

Well pal, I just went back & re-read both of your posts & while your opinion is one of those of the "scathing" catagory that I mentioned above, I'll be damned if you mentioned that you ever actually owned an E R shaw barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
Well, I just got off the phone W/Dennis Olsen.(of Plains Montana)

He said he will thread the barrel, fit it to my VZ500 M98 action, chamber in 6.5X55, open the bolt face & crown the barrel for $175.

That will have me W/$255 for the whole job including the shipped barrel.

He seems to have a good reputation & when I sent him a M98K take-off barrel for a (custom)re-contouring a while back, he did the job exacly as I had spec'ed & had it back to me in less than a week.

As far as cleaning the copper out, Wipe-Out will get the job done in short order.

I wonder, since these barrels have a reputation for copper fouling, if lapping the barrel before I send it out to him would be a good idea.

You can polish a turd all you want, and may even get it smooth and shiny, BUT it will still be a turd.
I'd rather spend $300 on a decent tube and not have to worry about any of the problems (and know that the maker will stand behind his product IF a problem should happen to develop)

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Can anyone say why some of these Shaw barrels have problems.

1. Is it the quality of the steel they use.
2. Is it the manner in which they contour the barrel.
3. Is it in the manner they rifle the barrel.

Just what is it. What do they do differently than another barrel maker that causes them to have the problems they reportedly have.

From a machine builders perspective, yes, yes and yes
For a button rifled barrel, they (any barrel maker) has a minimum of 3 steps that must be preformed.
Contour (either before or after)
Drill
Button rifle.

The better makers add some, or all of, a few more steps
Ream
Pre lap
Post lap
Stress relief
Straighten

The better makers also tend to hold tighter tolerances / reject (scrap) for smaller deviations from "perfect".
These spec's include (but are not limited to)
pre-button diameter (bore)
pre-button surface finish
bore diameter deviation
post button diameters (bore & groove)
post button surface finish
Concentricity of the OD and ID
Straightness of the bore
post rifling diameter deviation

The higher the standards, the more time is required, the lower the production rate, the higher the labor cost. Conversely the lower the standards, and the more steps you skip, the lower the cost out the door.

IIRC your in the legal profession, which would you want to defend you at a license forfeiture hearing, a $25/hour "public defender" or the $500/hour lawyer that specializes in that kind of work and why?

BTW: Here are some favorable responses regarding E R Shaw barrels from that thread.

OPPS I missed this one (your 1st post on the thread) where you gave a somewhat neutral response & yes you did acknowledge that you had owned an ER Shaw barrel & the copper fouling issue.

So now that you have enlightened us on that ground breaking news, I can put you down as one former E.R shaw owner/user posting on that thread that is dis-satisfied.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:
They can be accurate enough, if the smith doing the work takes his time to make the chamber, threads & crown as "true" as possible.
The one I spent time around shot acceptably, but it also fouled like a pig (5 shots would turn the inside of the barrel orange with copper, that took 3 days of cleaning to remove)

Wildcat
I can appreciate your situation as I'm going thru much the same thing. I have one request for you if you feel like doing it. On one of your
builds, write down some of the things you had to go thru to get the results you wanted.