I brought home a new toy today and I'd like some info please. It's a small ring commercial mauser stamped ZBROJOVKA BRNO, NAR. PODNIK.
Ser # 206xx
Full length stock
double set triggers
Very low butterknife bolt handle
Small ring receiver
No guide rail on bolt or slot in rear bridge
rear sight is one standing, one folding
streamline bolt shroud with left side safety
chambered in 8x57 S
Front and rear receiver drilled for scope bases

I did a search on the forums so I think what I have is a post war 21 or 22, but I'd like to hear any other info you know about this rifle and ballpark value.

Thanks,
Weagle

i dont know what it's worth or even for sure what it is, but I LIKE IT! the stipling on the ring, the crest, the safety, the butterknife... man-oh-man, she's a beaut!

very nice except for that rear scope base hole being in the middle or face of the lug seat!

quote:

Originally posted by Poleax:
very nice except for that rear scope base hole being in the middle or face of the lug seat!

I've always heard that's not the best place for the scope mount hole.

Weagle

quote:

very nice except for that rear scope base hole being in the middle or face of the lug seat!

That is one of the most common mistakes that I see made by shade tree gunsmiths on Mausers. What a shame.

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:

quote:

very nice except for that rear scope base hole being in the middle or face of the lug seat!

That is one of the most common mistakes that I see made by shade tree gunsmiths on Mausers. What a shame.

Other than not being proper, what is the consequence of drilling the rear lug seat? Has anyone ever seen one come unglued due to this?

weagle

It is a 1948 model 22f, also known as a 722. The bolt handle and stock have been altered to allow for a low scope mount.

The reason a lot of these have the front scope mount drilled like that is to preserve the crest. These are made of modern steel, and chambered for standard pressure cartridges. While I think that drilling the ring at all is sacriledge, I have never seen one fail because of it.

Regardless of the drilling issue it's a very nice outfit and I'd be proud to take it after whitetails anywhere!

Agree with vapodog, Thats a nice find and sweet rifle.

I would put a long screw to hold that scope base on then go enjoy it.

My estimation puts the center of that hole approximately .290" from the rear of the ring. The face of the lug seat is approximately .360 from the rear of the front ring. If memory serves, a 6x48 screw is about .140" in diameter. That make sme think the hole was litterally drilled on the face of the seat.

Self destruction is not the issue, accelerated setback is. Which, if left unattended could itself lead to the destruction of the rifle is a casehead lets go. Careful monitoring of the headspace is a good precautionary measure.

Kurt, no disrespect but 1948 is a mere 3 years after WWII, what leads you to believe that the steel formula was changed from that used on the G33/40 from which these were obviously derived?

Thanks guys. I did check the screw hole and it's just behind the face, but not by much. I'll keep an eye out for any headspace problems as I do that on all my mausers anyway.

Weagle.

Another pic:

It's a beautiful rifle despite the drilling. Keep an eye on things like you said and have fun.

That is a nice looking rifle-looks like a good shooter/hunter and not a collector. Too bad it is drilled at all like some others mentioned.

Being no expert I don't think the screw hole somewhere in the locking seat will make any difference. Does the left lug have the split for the ejector blade like a regular 98? I can't see how a screw hole in the middle of the locking seat makes any more difference than a complete slot in the left locking lug. Plateau Hunter

The left lug is split for the ejector blade.

I'm definitly a more of a shooter than a collector so the while the modifications reduce the collectors value, they make it better suited for my hunting needs.

I hope to find some bases that will work this weekend at the gun show.

Weagle

Weagle , Did the hole go all the way through to the inside? I had one like that that went all the way .

Those are cute guns and I had to accumulate a pair to satisfy my curiosity. Your better off that the bolt was cut as otherwise they are way too high for a scope and in particular with that comb.

If you don't find bases, and I doubt you will, save some $$$ for some custom ones.

Not many here in New England even know what those guns are thus it's value is not certain. If one were on an online auction however like that one it might bring $800 to $1000.

quote:

Originally posted by weagle:
I brought home a new toy today and I'd like some info please. It's a small ring commercial mauser stamped ZBROJOVKA BRNO, NAR. PODNIK.
Ser # 206xx
Full length stock
double set triggers
Very low butterknife bolt handle
Small ring receiver
No guide rail on bolt or slot in rear bridge
rear sight is one standing, one folding
streamline bolt shroud with left side safety
chambered in 8x57 S
Front and rear receiver drilled for scope bases

I did a search on the forums so I think what I have is a post war 21 or 22, but I'd like to hear any other info you know about this rifle and ballpark value.

Thanks,
Weagle

A classic BRNO carbine! It would be worth between $500.00 to $1500.00 depending on condition. What's the bore condition like?

I just love those BRNO "Mannlicher style" carbines in 8X57S, 7X57mm, or 8X60S..... I wish they still made them instead of the current CZ's, particularly the double-set trigger option!

The bore and crown are excellent. It's got a good bit of carry wear on the stock, but that's fine with me.

It weighs 6lb - 8 oz as pictured.

quote:

I can't see how a screw hole in the middle of the locking seat makes any more difference than a complete slot in the left
locking lug. Plateau Hunter

That is a excellent point to ponder since the slot in the left lug does line up with that rear screw hole in the receiver when the bolt is closed.

Well, since the barrel has not been pulled we are not certain exactly where that screw hole is are we? If it was on the face I'd imagine you could have issues with the edges of the "hole" perhaps interfering with a gage reading. Any ridge formed could/would tend to cause the bolt to move forward giving a false reading.

As to the hole being aligned with the extractor slot, that does indeed warrant more thought but I'd not do one that way. There arlready exists the issue of a ridge forming in that area. Additionally, I'd venture to say a solid web is stronger than a drilled one, how much? Good question. I think good advice was given about monitoring the headspace.

Weagle, nice rifle. I recently got an M21 (721) and am very happy. Mine too had the bolt handle altered, replaced actually. Saved me the dishonor of having to do it myself and incurring the wrath of the purists. Luckily mine has the integral bases so drilling was not an issue. Enjoy!

Z1r, thanks. I'm like you. This rifle would be much less usefull to me in an unaltered state, as all my hunting rifles wear scopes.

The screw hole is difinitly not on the face of the lug. I can see it clearly using a small dental mirror and I can feel that the face is smooth using my high tech feeler guage (bent paperclip) Although the hole is obviously not in the best place from a structural standpoint, it definitly has better asthetics than if the crest were drilled.

Now to find or make some bases that will work so I can take to the woods.

I'll definitly keep an eye on the headspace to make sure I don't develop problems.

Weagle

Savage 99. Did you have those scope bases made? If they are standard , do you have the part #'s?

Weagle

Just an update. I was happy to find that a weaver #55 fit the front and the rear was the same as a jc higgins model 50 FN (close hole spacing). I had a real nice steel tube weaver K-4 that will work for now.

Weagle

I had to pay my smith big bucks to make a special front base from a Weaver blank. You see someone messed up the front ring and put two holes forward but they are not only out of line but one is a 6-48 and the other a 8-40! A rear base was fitted as well and as the rear bridge had not been tapped yet it was done.

Now the installation is good. The irons can be seen with the scope off using the QR rings. I put the Kahles on for the Euro look.

At this point I think thats all I am going to do with the rifle. Its major fault is that the bolt will not stay closed with the safety on and the safety cannot be reached to push it off with the scope on. I did hunt with it one day last year and carried it on an empty chamber. With the firing pin down the bolt will stay closed very well.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
Its major fault is that the bolt will not stay closed with the safety on and the safety cannot be reached to push it off with the scope on. I did hunt with it one day last year and carried it on an empty chamber. With the firing pin down the bolt will stay closed very well.

Interesting. My bolt stays down just fine with the safety on, unless of course I try to open it. A new three position safety is easily fitted.

My bolt seems to stay down just fine also, and there's plenty of room to reach the safety under the Weaver scope.

Weagle

Your bolt stays down with the safety on? I have two of them and had owned a third and none of them would stay closed with it on.

Your scope is pretty high. My scope is nice and low and it has a large eyepiece therefore I can't reach the safety.

I have another one, a 21h with a 3-9 leu Compact on it in the higher factory mounts and I can just get the safety off but only without gloves.

Cute guns.

The bases on mine are standard weavers and the rings are lows. It comes to the eye nicely, but I may try some extra low burris Z rings and see if everything still lines up. The lower the better as far as I'm concerned.



Weagle

quote:

Originally posted by weagle:

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:

quote:

very nice except for that rear scope base hole being in the middle or face of the lug seat!

That is one of the most common mistakes that I see made by shade tree gunsmiths on Mausers. What a shame.

Other than not being proper, what is the consequence of drilling the rear lug seat? Has anyone ever seen one come unglued due to this?

weagle

Weagle,

I had a 1909 Argentino that was drilled with a Leupold mount centered on the front ring. I
suppose this was too far back too.

Well, I had some 7X57 ammo let loose and all the gas went where it was supposed to go without incident!

I'm not ready to buy into that theory yet. Gas
will take the path of least resistance and that
drilled hole is filled with a threaded screw!

Now, something in magnum big bore? I don't know? Medium bores and under don't worry me at all!

This is the 22f with a Kahles AH 2-7 with Weaver bases and detachable rings. As it is the scope is still kind of high as the combs on theses guns are very low and made for the irons then come with.

There is no way I can reach the safety at all without a glove on and even then I would have to push it off and it would click really loud. With the safety on the bolt just about falls open.

I really wanted a full stocked rifle but I am very dissappoined in this guns design. I did hunt with it one day with an empty chamber and I did have time to load it while checking out some deer but I did not shoot.

Weagle, since others have already told you what you have let me congratulate you on a great find! I have it's sibling the 21H (half stock) in 7X57. Mine is one of the best shooters in my safe! The safety is a little awkward to operate, but you need to keep in mind IF the bolt handle wasn't altered and a low mounted scope installed there would be plenty of room to work the safety.

Mine has been modified too. I would like to change mine back original one day. I have the original bolt handle and an unaltered stock for it.

Terry

Savage99, There's obviously a huge difference in the scope clearance when using those euro style scopes with the big eyepiece. As you can see in the pics, There's room to spare with the old steel tube Weaver. Any of the leupolds would have a small rear end also. I'd love to find a Leupold Alaskan with the 7/8" tube and some ultra low rings though.

The safety barely protrudes above the bolt shroud when it is in the on position, so likewise I have plenty of room under the weaver. With the rifle loaded, there seems to be ample tension on the bolt handle even with the safety on to carry it slung. If there's a round in the chamber I won't carry a rifle slung on my shoulder, so it's a non issue for me.

TC1, I love the looks of your rifle. Are those rings color case hardened? Sweet! I have seen a couple on the web with the original bolt handle and rings so high you would have to be a girrafe to shoot comfortably.

It might be more correct, but this type of set up would not work for me:

Weagle,

If my safety would not let the bolt open it would be ok.



I tried to fit a Weaver on the 21h above and still use the factory mounts that fit on the flat dovetailed bridges. The objective was too long between the end of the front ring and the start of the objective bell. Also the eyepiece of the K4 I have is about 1.4" which is less than the typical 1.55" but still to big to clear my bolt. However the Leu. 3-9 Compact fit just fine and it also was just long enough in the tube to make it from the front to the rear ring.

Weagle, great looking rifle, congratulations.

I have a similar model but it has the integral bases. I managed to acquire a set of Burgess rings for mine some years ago. The scope is close on mine but I can get the safety off. The safety does not lock my bolt down but I do not consider that any failing of the rifle or the design. Mine got restocked by some shade tree wood butcher.

Chic. Nice. Don't be modest. Lets see the whole stock. I have my drool shield over the keyboard.

Weagle

The safety is a major design defect. Even with the high scopes of the day it did not keep the bolt closed when on or even provide any significant friction to any of the three that I am familiar with.

I can just about reach the safety but not with gloves on one of these as it has a tiny scope.

Don't know what to do with these rifles? Neither are suitable for the field. The thing is that I like to retain the factory condition of guns. I do like recoil pads however.

With a higher comb the express sight would not be useful.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
The safety is a major design defect.

And we should accept this as a "expert opinion", even though its from the guy that dosn't know how to properly operate a simple bolt action?

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
The safety is a major design defect. Even with the high scopes of the day it did not keep the bolt closed when on or even provide any significant friction to any of the three that I am familiar with.

I can just about reach the safety but not with gloves on one of these as it has a tiny scope.

Don't know what to do with these rifles? Neither are suitable for the field. The thing is that I like to retain the factory condition of guns. I do like recoil pads however.

With a higher comb the express sight would not be useful.

Have you not figuered aout yet that these rifles were designed for open sight only use?

If you don't like the safety, like someone said, change it to a three position. Then you can have your locked bolt. Heck, even the commercial FN's didn't lock the bolt. IMO, the safety isn't defective, only ill designed to work with a scope. But, if you remember that the rifle wasn't designed for a scope it makes sense.

Uncle Enfield,

Your right. Welcome to the forum by the way. My posts are really answers to Ray Atkinson who said that the Brno 21h-22f's were the finest sporters ever made.

So I bought three of them to find out. This was just before I discovered the Kimber 84M's. The first is the 21h shown and the safety is somewhat usable. Then I just had to have a full stocked rifle and the 22f came along and I like it's looks. The third one had excessive headspace and the seller took it right back.

If I had a stock like Chic shows I would go further of course. Talking about the 22f which has the worst safety problem I showed the stock to an amature stockmaker here who is very skilled. I asked him if the stock could be refinished hoping he would do it. He suggested that I continue the "maintenance" that I had started where I bleached out a very dark section and wiped on a poly that contained a stain. That little area looked really good in terms that it was not noticable but just made that dark stained area look bright and clean.

This full stocked 20.5" barreled carbine is woods rifle accurate and the LOP now fits me. It's a 8-57 with good headspace. It could be a little lighter but it's ok.

So I suppose I could get a new bolt shroud with a three position M70 type safety that is supposed to fit and try to make it work myself and if I can't to take it down to the smith.

The thing is that now that the Kimbers are so easy to get and much superior rifles in every way I really don't need to hunt with this rifle at all. I do 'want' to hunt with it however just a little. Not enough it seems to spend much more time on it.

I have lots of stuff like this. I like to own them anyway and just put them aside and think about it. The next gun that I am going to work on this winter is the M88 I got that needs a pad and now groups two to three MOA.