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Marc thank you for taking the time to post that. Very informative. Can someone offer a more solid opinion on the quoted portion. Would being "retained" by one side prevent you from being called as a witness by the other? What does the term "hostile witness" mean? Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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This whole thing disgusts me!
Of course not, they would already be there representing someone. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Then you would be Wrong! | |||
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And here you are Correct. | |||
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I had to go to an appointment and did not get to make one final point before I had to leave. Wow, he just kept digging. 22WRF- The sheer ridiculousness of your posts is intuitively obvious to the casual observer. The post you DIRECTED AT ME by quoting my post and directly referring to “the above post” is based on a flawed premiss. Well, actually two flawed premisses. Error Number 1- I IN NO WAY attacked Mr. Belk on a personal level. It cannot be found anywhere in what I wrote. You can try to “read between the lines” and then make up whatever your fertile mind can produce. Anyone can do that about anything ever said or written. That does not give it the slightest bit of validity. You specifically CALLED ME OUT as attacking Mr. Belk on personal levels. You then went on to list several personal areas of attack. I IN ABSOLUTELY IN NO WAY attacked Mr. Belk on ANY level, much less a personal level that would have absolutely nothing to do with the argument to begin with. YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA of my opinion of Mr. Belk on a personal level. YOU ASSUME TO KNOW WHAT I THINK of the man, and somehow projected YOUR ASSUMPTIONS into my post. I made ABSOLUTELY NO ACCUSATIONS about his intentions or motives. I do not even have a desire to know his intention or motives. What would they have to do with me and why would I care? Error Number 2- The second flawed premiss of yours is that YOU ASSUME TO KNOW WHAT I THINK of Mr. Belk's opinion on the Remington trigger design! You have absolutely NO IDEA what I think about his opinion, Remington's opinion, Mr. Walker's opinion, or anyone's opinion on the relative safety of the Remington trigger design. YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA! Yet your post only makes sense if you know for a fact that I think Mr. Belk's opinion is wrong. WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO TELL ME AND THE WORLD VIA THIS WEB SITE WHAT I DO AND DON'T THINK? I could agree with Mr. Belk 100%, 0%, or some portion in between. BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW! Do I have an opinion based on my life, educational, and professional experiences and knowledge in mechanical engineering, gun making, materials, manufacturing, quality control, kinematics, testing, failure, fatigue, machining, etc.? Yes, I do. But you know what? YOU DON'T HAVE THE SLIGHTEST IDEA WHAT I THINK ABOUT THE DESIGN OF THE TRIGGER IN QUESTION! I in no way, shape, or form, mentioned it in my post. I'll make a deal with you Hoss - I won't tell you what you think and you won't tell me what I think. Fair? Do you know why I never mentioned my opinion in the post? BECAUSE IT IS NOT GERMAINE TO THE ISSUE OF MY POST! The entire point of the post was explaining to people who also have valid opinions and real world experience, why Mr. Belk could not agree with them, regardless of what proof, experience, data, whatever, they provided, in this public forum. It is that simple. Really READ MY POST AGAIN and you will find that I neither attacked Mr. Belk on a personal level or gave the slightest inclination of my opinion on the design of the trigger. I NEVER EVEN HINTED that Mr. Belk may EVEN IN THE SLIGHTEST WAY be unscrupulous or a man of questionable moral character or that his opinion is wrong. So no, my post WAS MOST DEFINTELY NOT an Ad Hominem argument by any reasonable reading. Your accusations of both my intentions and actions are 100% WRONG! Look, I understand that up here in Minnesota cultural things are a lot different than those of my upbringing. I grew up in a very traditional family from the rural Deep South. I have yet to meet a Minnesotan who could fully appreciate the gravity of some things that people of my background find to be quite serious matters. I am not saying that one way is right and one way is wrong, I am just saying that they are different. Me being accused of attacking a man's moral character and everything else you listed in your post after referring to my post is a matter of significance to me. You are 100% WRONG in what you said. And even if for some purely hypothetical reason I did have a negative thing to say about Mr. Belk, then I am man enough to say it in no uncertain terms. And I am also man enough to tell him to his face anything I would say about him from this keyboard in a public forum. You are 100% WRONG on every level regarding me and my post. Where I come from, an apology is in order. But I am a big boy and we all wear long pants here and will get along just fine regardless of what you do or do not say. I will say this – I AM ASKING YOU TO TAKE ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANT TO SAY OR REFER OR IMPLY ABOUT ME, THEN SAY IT IN PERSON TOMORROW WHEN I AM IN YOUR HOME TOWN. Eyeball to eyeball. You can PM me or use my email, as I keep it listed in my public profile. My phone number and physical address are easy to find with a quick search should you desire to use a telephone call or singing telegram to contact me in arranging the meeting. The meeting will be as gentlemanly as you desire it to be. There is nothing else for me to say in this thread, as I will not disclose my opinion on the relative safety of the Remington trigger in this forum. To restate what apparently everyone else understood from the beginning, I made my initial post FOR ONE REASON AND ONE REASON ONLY – to explain why Mr. Belk would not change his opinion of the relative inherent safety of the Remington-Walker trigger design. And you know what? If I were retained by Mr. Belk's attorneys, I ALSO WOULD NOT COUNTER A SINGLE SYLLABLE OF WHAT HE WROTE IN THE INITIAL POST. If he were to do that, it would be screwing his clients. Again, where I come from, that is a big deal. And yes, these (not just guns, I mean any relevant) internet forums are routinely monitored by attorneys and entire threads have been read into the record in open court. In leaving I want to say Mr. Belk, if you are reading this, please take everything I have written at face value. I in no way, shape, or form had any intention to speak negatively of both your opinion on the trigger design and anything at all about you personally. If I had an opinion on either of these items that I desired to discuss, I would tell you in person. I honestly have no idea how 22WRF tied me in with some attempt to attack your character, morality, motives, and everything else he listed in his post. If you feel the need to discuss anything with me, please do not hesitate to contact me directly. | |||
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This whole conversation about expert witness testimony brings back some memories. Particularly, often an expert witness is called to only analyze one aspect of the problem, and not to present a conclusion of overall causitive factors. The attorney will then lead the jury through a logic problem, saying that since this is true, then this is true, and the conclusion must be this. On one case where I was called as an expert witness as an engineer I made a number of physical measurements, compared them to the required standards in an agency reference, and testified that the measurements deviated from the standard. At the time of the design, the adopted standard was a U.S. units manual, but at the time of my testimony, a metric units manual was adopted. The opposing side had access to my deposition before the trial. They chose to focus on the version of the manual I had used, and called an expert witness that asserted that my analysis was flawed because I had used an obsolete manual, not the adopted standard. After conferring with me, the attorney I was retained by, on cross examination, asked the opposing expert, line by line, item by item from my report, if the Metric manual differed from the U.S. Units manual. Of course, the answer back in all cases, was that the dimensions would not change, except through rounding errors. My testimony was sustained, and the defendant that had used the tactic was tagged for 40% of a $4.5 million settlement. If they had presented an argument instead that there was a safety margin in the dimensions, that the dimensional differences did not affect the safety of the design, or that there was justification for the deviation, they would have probably had a very small liability in this case. Instead, the attorney I was working for made a case that the agency had not followed it's own manual, so the fault was theirs. I never testified that the client I was working for was not at fault, or that the opposing side was at fault, I simply testified that I had measured certain things with a high degree of accuracy, and found that they deviated from a recognized standard. The attorney I was working for was careful to never ask my opinion if the deviation from the standard was the cause of the damages or to ask me to draw any conclusions from the data. I had prepared a comprehensive report on the entire circumstances of the case, and had furnished them with a report for internal use prior to my testimony. They elected to only have me testify on my measurements and not offer a professional opinion on the causitive effects of the damages after considering my report. They let the agency standards speak for themselves. As a potential expert witness, I have been asked if I can find justification for a particular stance by an attorney. In all cases, I have replied that I will be glad to conduct an independent assessment of the problem, and present a report for their use. I have always pointed out that there is considerable value in having sound technical advice before they go to court that their position is defective, rather than finding that out during unrefutable evidence by the opposing expert witness. Companies that were unwilling to accept that type of assessment, I declined to work for. Point is that there are many expert witnesses that have a high level of integrity, and even if they are not advocates for a client or position, their testimony on specific areas of expertise can be used effectively by an attorney. This use by the attorneys gives a perception that they are biased, as there are other aspects that they could have testified on that wouldn’t have been favorable. Truth is that expert witnesses are called to testify about specific things, and not necessarily to give an analysis or opinion on the guilt of the client. In many cases, it would be improper for an expert witness to offer such an opinion. The expert witnesses I have little trust for are the ones that are advocates for a certain position, and that solicit clients that want to profit from that position. There, I see a possibility of a conflict of interest. Even if they are well meaning, their approach builds in a bias in their analysis. I have seen several advocacy groups that have so called independent experts on staff to support their cases. I fail to see how their employment exclusively to support one position cannot help but introduce a bias. I am not going to offer an opinion on the Remington trigger, as in my thought, it is a much more complicated issue than this thread makes it out to be. I would be a lot more comfortable with the report that was presented as an expert witness testimony if it didn't have followup statements like "We were sold a bill of goods in the '80s and it shows yet today. Next Wednesday the body of evidence will change dramatically." and "Right now, a brand new M-700 needs about $300 worth of work be done on it to bring the rifle up to full potential. That seems so wrong on so many counts. You might change wheels and tires and put on some accessories for a new truck, but you shouldn't have to take it to the frame shop to be re-aligned before you can drive it!" I'd be a lot more receptive to an assessment that shows that a piece of contamination of .xxx thousandths that gets between the connecter and trigger can cause it to malfunction. That's a fact, that can be backed up by the mechanical analysis. It would be up to the jury to decide if Remington should have reasonably anticipated that problem, and designed to avoid it. dave | |||
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No need for "me" to Prove anything - belk provides Proof Positive of it every year or so he pops up. Called "Prima Facie" Evidence - Self Evident - which is obviously beyond your comprehension. Or..., perhaps you smell money too. | |||
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Well worth repeating. | |||
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And you and your masters at Remington don't smell the money either? Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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[quote]Originally posted by Jim Kobe: Just thought I had better jump in here. I was one of the guys he phuqued out of some cash and service. Are we going to forgive and forget this incident that drug on for how many monts. The bull $hit that he spread and all of the people left behind when he headed to the desert to get his $hit together. ... 22WRF, What does make a shadow of doubt, is, if someone did screw people/persons in their field of service/expertise.. it gives wonder if testimony is done for the love of the buisness and to protect the industry through knowledge ect, or if it is about money. Does that hurt credibility as an expert witness in the eyes of a judge, I'm sure not, but it does with some gunowners. | |||
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I think I already said that above, in that a judge wouldnt care. My point was, some gunowners are going to have doubts that it is only for the good of the industry that Belk testified and not money when money problems (may) have been an issue in the past in his proffesion. | |||
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Classic ad hominem defense... | |||
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I watched the show and found it to be well balanced. Remington was given an opportunity to respond and chose not to. Based on the documents and visual evidence there is no question the 700 safety can fail under the right conditions and those conditions are more commnon than we could imagine. Hard to believe anyone can believe anything else. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Mr. Belk: Not wsure who you really are..used the search function to look at posts about you and by you. Seems to me about 7-8 years ago you went "underground" rather than face customers. My question is this: Gun owners have a hard enough time right now with gun rights issues, lawsuits etc. Here you are, a talented gunsmith, or at least there was a time when you were, and you are providing the ammunition (sorry for the bad joke) to those who oppose guns to use against us. Why? After several million Rem 700's have been sold and used, the number of deaths is very sad, but statistically almost worthless. Asprin have killed more people than the Rem 700's design flaw. I don't know, maybe you just did it for the money, or for the glory, but in all honesty, IMHO, I wish you would have never came back from your forced leave from this forum. Again, don't know you, would not like to meet you, but what I think you are doing is disgraceful. | |||
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Beg to differ here---what you are doing is disgraceful. You are not all there my friend!!  | |||
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Just watched the show. Damning. Absolutely damning. Belk is right. A rifle should not fire unless the trigger is pulled. Some well-maintained Remington 700s will fire regularly without the triggers being pulled. Including those of paid, professional snipers. And Remington has known that for decades. The documentary evidence is incontrovertible. Mrs. Barber pointed her rifle at her son. She didn't know it, because he was hidden behind a trailer, but she did it. And an AD killed him. She should have pointed it at the ground in front of her while she unloaded it. Did she pull the trigger? She says no. She says she never touched the trigger as she opened the bolt. But will it matter to a jury? No. Not on your life. Nor should it. Not when a Remington 700 can be shown, without any doubt, to be capable of firing without pulling the trigger. Again, no rifle should fire without the trigger being pulled. And the Remington will do that, demonstrably and repeatedly, and with ample documentation to prove it beyond any doubt. Stupid is as stupid does, for manufacturers as well as users. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I obtained a lot of good info from Jack years ago. Did he $hit on a lot of people a few years ago. Yep. Would I send him $$ or ask him to do work for me? Not in this lifetime. However, to me the show was more than fair. Should a gun user make sure his gun is pointed in a safe direction before taking it off safe. You bet. However, should a rifle ever fire without the trigger being pulled. HECK NO. Will a 700 series. Yes, I have had it happen to several rifles in hunting camps I've been in as well when I was sighting in rifles at the range. The majority of the 700 users will never remove the action from the stock. We expect them to know how to insure the trigger is clean, safety functioning etc??? We don't want the Feds making rules on firearm safety. Then when we know there is a problem we as the shooting public need to hold the company accountable. Having lost a son, one child killed due to an error that has a simple fix is one too many. Yes the mother also made a mistake. One she will live with everyday of her life. Outliving your child SUCKS!!!!! We sure have a problem separating the issue from the person posting it. Jack didn't cause the 700 problem. Remington could have fixed it anytime over the last 60 years they chose not too. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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This would be just fine except that the evil trigger connector was very possibly not the problem in any of the cases. This especially applies to the Barber incident. The connector has been proclaimed as being at fault and THIS is the bill of goods we are being sold. Media types don't know any better and can be easily snowed. People with technical knowledge and experience should know better. The trigger connector is a superfluous piece which could have been eliminated. However, had it been eliminated, the accidents might still have happened. To proclaim the floating sear as the cause and tout it's elimination as a cure-all is just plain wrong. Rifles which I have seen fire without pulling the trigger include the following: The Winchester Model 70. The Savage 110. The Parker Hale 1200. The Ruger 77. The Shulz& Larsen 68. The Sako L579, L61, AV. The Mauser 98 with a Timney trigger. Colt-Sauer. BRNO ZKK 600. Browning BLR. Winchester model 94. Marlin Model 336. Winchester Model 21 shotgun. Winchester Model 69 .22. Winchester Model 1906. The Remington Model 700 trigger design is NOT the epitome of perfection but Remington is being crucified over the existence of an unnecessary part and I'm not sure they deserve it. Regards, Bill. | |||
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Jack, I was hoping you could expand on a few points in your post. I was not able to watch the show. You made the comment: "The defect is there and it's unpredictable and many times it won't repeat no matter what you do. The scientific method depends on masses of information when the occurrence is rare and non-repeatable. There are thousands of people that have written letters of complaints that describe the exact same failures time after time." The above paragraph seems logically inconsistent. In the same paragraph you are saying the failure is unpredictable and many times you can’t get it to repeat but you are relying on thousands of complaint letters written and concluding these letters (which most likely contain no scientific rigor as they are not describing a test) document the exact same failure. It almost appears you are saying we think Toyotas have bad brakes, we many times can’t get the brakes to fail, but because lots of people wrote in that they crashed and they say it was because of bad brakes, we now have proof the brakes are bad. If it supposedly has happened thousands of times, why do you believe it is so hard to repeat? How many times were you able to repeat it with the action in the stock? When I look at two of your three tests I am not sure I understand the validity or logic of the conclusions drawn and or the purpose of the test. The “Trick the Trigger” Test would seem to be illogical as well as the conclusion because by definition you are not engaging the safety (your instructions say put it in the middle). Your hypothesis basically states don't engage the safety properly and then do X and if the gun goes off the safety/trigger is bad. It seems you are saying purposefully misuse the device and if it fails it helps proves the device design is defective. The Screwdriver test also seems to be illogical to me on two accounts 1) it is based on a condition that doesn’t exist in the real world. Screwdrivers or punches are not pressed against the bottom of the connector in the real world. It seems you are saying place pressure against the lever from the bottom and you can cause this part to not work. Except the part was not designed to work with pressure being placed there and it is impossible to place that type pressure there when the device is assembled. Even if I say “ok, it is just being used as a simulation”, the rest of your conclusion doesn’t make sense to me. You made the comment: “Guns that fail this test can sometimes fire on safety release after suffering common vibrations in a vehicle or on horseback.” You seemed to have devised a test which applies a constant pressure and then concluded that the test replicates the effect of vibrations. Were you ever able to replicate a FSR based on vibrations? Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Bill nailed it when he said no one takes the time to clean their trigger groups,just the barrel when getting it home.New or used. At the start of the show when the reporter was talking with a rifle in his hands,HE HAD HIS FINGER ON THE TRIGGER. Maybe he did it on purpose or he didn't realize it.It seems that that could explain some of those discharges. | |||
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Mike-- I'll be glad to expand but I can't go beyond the documents released tonight, but I will answer your questions. The fault has been recorded AT Remington. It has been described as happening on THEIR ranges. New guns, in adjustment, clean and a guy that does nothing but shoot all day recording it. Dirt, rust, and mal-adjustments exacerbate the problem, so the older the gun gets, the more use it gets, the more it shows up. I can't believe that several thousand people came up with the same story without knowing each other. I've read the complaint letters. WHERE are the other complaints on competing rifles? There aren't enough to count, hardly. The last I heard, Winchester had forty-one complaints since 1937. The 'trick' test tells the gunsmith that the safety cam is worn or out of spec because it should lift the sear clear of the connector before the null position is reached. The safe should fire ONLY in the full fire position and be safe everywhere else. It's a determination of wear and adjustment. It shows the gun is very likely to start to FSR should the trigger be pulled while on safe. I've owned one that would FSR every time under those circumstances. The 'screw-driver test' shows that the connector is too loose on the trigger body and can become dislodged when the rifle is upside down...like in a truck window gun rack. The first Remington rifle 'accused' of FSR that I saw came into the shop I was working at in 1969. It had an FSR and shot a turkey (road) hunter in the top of the left knee. NOT good with a deuce. That gun (722) had been in the front seat of a pick-up, muzzle down in the floorboard. I took it out of the stock after checking to see if the trigger was binding in any way. It wasn't. When I tapped on the receiver to simulate hours on Florida washboard roads I SAW the connector slip down and bypass the sear. It would FSR every time, after maybe 30 seconds of light taps on the receiver with a plastic hammer. I know now, but not then, that the holes in the connector were punched before it was bent, while hot, and the holes became elongated enough to allow the connector to ride up and past the sear. That one would fail every time if it was set up by vibration. Since connectors were bought from a vendor by the steel drum full, I'm thinking that was not the only 722 with that problem. I'm sure it would help you understand better by watching the program. It was well done, I thought. Nothing but the facts. Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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Jack, after watching the program (yes, it opened with the CNBC idiot with his finger on the trigger...wonder why they didn't mention you should never have your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to shoot?), it seemed to me that Mike Walker thought the problem with the trigger was the safety, not the connector. I would guess that you and he have had a difference of opinion about the problem, no? For the life of me, I can't understand why Remington didn't just make the 5.5 cent correction fifty years ago. Didn't they expect to sell millions of the M-700? Didn't anyone think what the cost would be if they had to retrofit MILLIONS of rifles at some point in the future? Shortsighted, but that's what happens when the beancounters are running your business, be it guns, cars, or whatever. One final question: given that our elite military snipers perceive the M-700 has a trigger problem, what do they do about it? MKane160 You can always make more money, you can never make more time...........LLYWD. Have you signed your donor card yet? | |||
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Jack, Thanks for the additional comments. My apologies for the longer post it may have been too rambling. I don't believe you answered the three specific questions I asked. Maybe the got buried in the clutter. So I will clarify the questions. 1) If it supposedly has happened thousands of times, why do you believe it is so hard to repeat? 2)How many times were you able to repeat it (an FSR) with the action in the stock? 3)Were you ever able to replicate a FSR based on vibrations? Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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WOW, and I must know three of them! Win 101's at the skeet range would fire when the safety was let off or double fire at other times. They were all sent back to win and returned, one of them twice, but they still would do it on occasion. The guys never took them to the field they were so scared of them. | |||
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MKane--- The XMarkPro is a good trigger and I assume the military rifles have been retrofitted with them. Mike- 1) As my D&F instructor at gunsmith's school said many years ago, "The M700 triggers are a collection of parts flying in loose formation." It is a rare event that happens when one little piece doesn't return to precisely the correct position. MANY guns will repeat FSR over and over again as long as you want to do it. 2) I didn't repeat the FSR in the stock because the stock was eliminated as causation. 3)I stated very clearly above that the light tapping of a plastic hammer (about two ounces) supplied the vibration. Please remember, I had never heard of the fault and I was doing the customer a favor by finding it, but it changed my process of adjusting Remington triggers forever. I was fresh out of gunsmith's school and curious. Yes, I told Remington about it at the NRA that year. Outback- We're talking very specifically about over-ride triggers for striker fired rifles. The Win 101 is VERY sensitive to lubrication and will often fail if a teflon lube is used. DON'T. That goes for all doubles. Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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For those who didn't watch the show, it will probably be available quite often on CNBC, especially on holidays when the stock market is closed. The "Walmart Special (I don't recall the exact name)" has been shown dozens if not hundreds of times since its initial airing on CNBC. The "defect" is often repeatable. In spite of Mike Walker saying that none of the rifles made while he was in charge would FSR, they would and did. It was pointed out in the show that Consumer Reports did a test on a light varmint 700 in 1962, over 10 years before Walker retired, and it FSR and would do so repeatedly. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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I think your post is disgraceful, not because of your position on Mr. Belk (which is a personal opinion that you are certainly entitled to), but because you dismiss the needless deaths and injuries as "statistically almost worthless". If it was your son, daughter, or wife who was dead, I wonder if you would have the same opinion? xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Then why are you posting on this thread? It's about one of the Remington triggers. As far as your observations about how you think the legal world works and affects others, most of the observations that are completely and universally true are obvious to all of us, without your pointing them out. The ones that aren't are mostly irrelevant, as are the aforementioned, and corrupt the thread, regardless. If you don't have anything to say about the trigger, why don't you just STFU, and start your own thread? | |||
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A 5.5 cent fix fifty years ago is about a $3 fix now and back then they said some 2 million rifles were built now it 5 million. Either way you have to look a price in the context of time. In 1960 $.05 was not a great deal of money but it sure could buy a lot more then it can now. I Believe there is something not right with the trigger but I also believe that any trigger misused or adjusted can be unsafe. The other issue that was not addressed in the show was how many of these cases where people were hurt or died was the gun not pointed and the ground or to the sky. I don't know about you but I was taught that unless the firearm was pointed at the ground nearly straight down or nearly straight up is was not pointed in a safe direction and even under those circumstances it still may not be safe. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Ok, I getcha. The 101's had nothing on them but what they left win with. The one that went back twice and still did it has been sitting unused for 25 yrs now as unsafe by the owner. The others use them on clays without putting on the safety. The bigger question is, if winchester and others have models that cause AD's too, why is Remington getting the hammer? Is it purely that they have the deepest pockets?? | |||
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Ask him if he wants to sell that 101 piece of junk, assuming it was made in Japan by Olin Kodensha? Considering he can't use it and can't sell it in good conscience to anyone, at the right price, I'll take it off his hands knowing how unsafe it is. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Remington tried that.  Bruce | |||
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There is/was, The Remington EtronX. It went over like a fart in church. | |||
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I have asked him if he'd sell it to me (cheap of course) and I would use it only on clays in a safe inviroment. He's certain it could come back on him (an accident)somehow and will not do it. | |||
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Well when do we start on the Remington shotgun and pump / semi auto rifle triggers. Since our experts say they have problems too?? Originally posted by Jack Belk: All Remington 'common fire control' guns (all pumps and autos with the two pins in the side of the receiver) have a 'floating sear' that is not controlled by the safety. They can fire ON or OFF safe without the trigger being pulled. | |||
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Lets see. Companies that got picked on (singled out) due to something they sold. Jeep CJ-5, Thing would roll over in a stiff breeze if you believe the news media. Jack in the Box For selling E- coli contaminated beef when just about ever other fast food joint was buying beef from the same supplier. Ford or Chevy trucks can't remember which but had side fuel tanks that tended to explode on a side impact crash. NBC had very cool video footage of "independent tests" showing the explosions. What they didn't mention and got in very deep trouble for was the independent tests independently soaked the truck in kerosine just before the test to add to the drama. This is nothing new it's just the flavor of the week www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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kcstott: Did you watch the show? xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Yep and watched it twice as they had it back to back in my area. Thought it addressed the issue but like I said how many of these deaths could have been prevented with proper gun handling regardless if there is a problem with the trigger system or not. The safe direction thing.... Pointing a firearm in any direction other then at the sky and as near straight up as possible is unsafe. And a bullet coming back down to earth is still not exactly perfectly safe but I'd rather have a bullet fall on me then one fired at me. Pointing at the ground is only good if the ground is soft enough to absorb a bullet strike. I have a feeling a lot of these AD's were where the firearm was held in a horizontal position. And I don't care who you are that ain't safe period less the action is open and no rounds in the firearm. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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