Folks:
Below is a picture of a .350 Remington Magnum case, one before firing and the other afterwards. Please note the expansion just above the belt. I haven't put calipers on it, but it is very noticable and by running your fingernail over it, you feel a definite "shoulder"

The expansion is constant 360 degrees around.
Interestingly the gun will shoot great groups. This problem is not new, but I just noticed it when I decided to reload for the first time in several years. (I'd loaded 150 rounds with Barnes X bullets about three years ago, and just finished shooting the last this week. When preparing to run the brass through the sizer, I about crapped. I found some old, old fired brass (factory loads) and it seems that this has been a problem from the day I got the rifle from the Remington Custom shop four years ago.

First, I'm not planning to shoot the rifle again until it is fixed, so don't anyone tell me not to shoot it... It can't be safe... can it?

It seems to me that the chamber is just too darn big and the barrel will have to be set back at least 1/32" or so or replaced with a properly chambered barrel. That sucks!

What do you say? Or have I just invented the first rebated, belted magnum???



[ 04-25-2003, 19:45: Message edited by: JudgeG ]

I wonder just who they have in the "custom" shop???

Mike

Your chamber is, unfortunately, too common with belted magnums from most factories. Their chambers are just plain sloppy. The reason is that they can get by with it, and it costs them less money in the long run. They start with an oversized reamer, and that oversized reamer will last for a lot more chambering jobs before it wears down too small for tolerances. The factory reasons that the belted case will still headspace adequately on the rim, and will therefore be safe, and that no one will be bothered with any factory ammunition which is a tight fit. The hell with reloading, who at the factory cares?

Setting back and rechambering may or may not help much, since the chamber appears to be so large (and the case tapers so little) that you won't gain much until you have chopped off quite a bit of the chamber, maybe more than you can afford to without running out of barrel shank room. Some careful measurements will tell you whether to attempt barrel set-back, or just go with a new barrel.

I feel your gun is safe enough with unfired brass, but I would be somewhat hesitant to reload brass fired in that chamber.

Good luck!

Kinda looks like a .350 Rem Mag Reversed Almost Improved or something like that. The Custom Shop should have their fannies whacked soundly IMHO. The .35 cal shoots well most of the time regardless of the abuse and igorance heaped upon it, or the case that drives it. One of life's mysteries I guess.

You might be able to get by with neck sizing only. That way you won't work harden the brass above the belt.

JudgeG
If your chamber is too long you could make 350RM brass out of any of the belted mag.s. Then you could form the shoulder to fit your rifle and eleminate the case stretch on the initial firing.
Layne Simpson had an article on this in Handloader or Rifle a while back.

I've got a Ruger .270Win that does the same thing. When I contacted Ruger years ago about it they said my loads were too hot (never shot loads within 5% of max loads). They also said that the chamber "may" be maximum size and my dies work the brass down to the minimum size of tolerances for that cartridge. Never fired factory ammo to test their theory. Brass only lasts 5 loadings before they crack just in front of the head. Next project will be to install a new barrel on that rifle.

[ 04-25-2003, 21:44: Message edited by: AJ300MAG ]

If the chamber is too large, find out by how much. I am not a gunsmith so don't know this would work for sure, maybe doing an improvement on the cartridge, lessening taper through the case and changing shoulder, would cause it to be a tight enough fit that you wouldn't have to rebarrel or lose too much.

Red

Hey Judge---

Welcome to the world of factory junk.

There's actually no danger in shooting (fireforming) new brass in it. The expansion is not too much for one firing, but you should not re-size and fire it again. The bottom half of the case is considerably harder than the front and it takes little squeezing and blowing will cause failure.

You can set the barrel back by one thread (.062) and recapture some of the "swell" but not all.

The risk is that the chamber is also at a tangeant to the bore.....that means to re-ream it would make it not only oversize, but also egg shaped.

Check to see if a fired case will go back in the chamber and close.....fat chance, but if it will you can neck size only but it'll take a regular neck size die. I thing the base is too big to use a FL die backed out.

I just checked...... I don't have that reamer so can't help.

Judge,

I think you are mistaken. The Remington web site clearly states that they make only the finest "precision" rifles.

They have a forum on their web site, why don't you try to post this problem on it.

I would send the rifle back to them, demanding not only a refund, but a formal written apology as well.

1 - Dig out the cerrosafe...

2 - Make enough chamber castings that each member of the Board of Directors can have one of his own...

3 - Mail them off, along with a transcript of this thread, and a gentle reminder of how many people read this stuff...

and 4 - eventually, well all be buying better quality products... ..and you'll probably get a new rifle...

I would start with a telephone call the then send a couple of the cases to Rem, along with the loading data. I would also asked them to correct it.

Jerry

Well, I'm disappointed! After reading the subject of the thread, I was looking forward to a discussion on how to "fix" JudgeG. Instead, all I see is a bunch of talk on how to repair a Remington.

Just kidding, Judge!

Judge,

Don't panick yet! The fired case while somewhat grotesque in appearance, is not all that uncommon for a factory offering. It is present in one form or another and to varying degrees in every factory produced gun made. It is a result of corporate greed in that the manufacturers, in an attempt to get the most bang from their buck, will purchase grossly over sized tooling in order save some change by wringing every drop of tool life they can while sacrificing a little quality.

Actually this practice is in play in the manufacture of almost every product produced today, so I don't know why this would come as a surprise to most of us when we see this. I suppose it is because we still hold out hope that the manufactures who compete for our dollars will some day get it right. Fat chance.

The manufacturer will tell you that the chamber is within spec and they will probably be right. Regardless of what they say, to you the owner of such a piece, it still is unpleasant to look at.

You will probably be fine shooting and reloading for it. If you can get by with neck sizing only, then you are money ahead. If however you need to full length resize, then you may experience case head separation much sooner than normal. We can thank God brass is as malleable as it is...

Good luck,

Malm

InfoSponge:
When I was in SE Asia, my brother bought his 4 yr old son a dog. The boy promptly named the mutt "Uncle Ernest" for me. The dog was absolutely as sex crazy as Teddy Kennedy, humping everything from the postman to the refrigerator door. He was promptly "fixed". My sister-in-law then announced at a bridge game, no one there having the slightest clue that she had a dog by the name, but everyone knowing me and my on going stint in RVN, that it was sad, but "Uncle Ernest" was now castrated. 30 some odd years later, I still get funny looks when I introduce my two teenage girls to hometown residents.

If you are only shooting 50-60 rounds per year I'd just buy a couple hundred cases and shoot/reload, neck size only and forget it. You could have a die made by Hornady for less than $75 that will be made to size your fired cases. Call them and they will give you the details. You might have the first .350 Rem. Short Action Ultra Mag, could be a real collector piece. I'd sure like to know the dia. of the fired case, at the fat part just ahead of the belt.

The once fired cases out of my 300 Win Mag Sako 75 look like that, but not so severe. They will chamber with just a little bit of more effort than a non fired case.

I don't plan to reload for it until I can check the fired cases against max dimensions. Even then, I probably shoudl only neck size and maybe bump the shoulder a couple of thou. back?

Opinions?

What I would do is set up my dies to size the case as little as possible and to headspace on the shoulder, rather than that stupid little belt. I do this with all my belted rounds BTW. All you want the brass to do is slide into the chamber easily without oversizing. If you're not feeling a groove on the inside of the case at the expansion ring, using a paperclip with a hook bent into it at one end, you should be OK.
I would get a gunsmith to make you a chamber cast and check it out according to SAAMI standards and if it is out of spec, then you have serious arguing points to prsent to Remington.
Paul B.

looks like it is chambered for a 358 norma or something. you could always send it to me!!!! i have a wayward home for such remingtons!!!
woofer

What? Another Remington issue? I wonder why these guns still sale . . .

Ah- Grasshopper another oversized chamber. It looks bad, but I doubt the head is actually separating. Use a straightened paperclip with a L shaped sharpened point and feel around the swell. If there is no evidence that the case is actually separting, It's safe to fire. Neck size it only and don't FL size. It will probably be oK. Whose brass is it also. Try Norma brass and maybe it will expend less.-Rob

Judge,

A friend of mine had a similar issue with a .17 Reminton. He got a lot of stonewalling and sent the rifle back twice. He sent letters to the gun rags for the "letters to the editor" type columns. Of course they did not publish it but one of them forwarded the letter to Remington. They finnaly rebarreled it.
Its too bad when even the custom shop is cranking out junk.
Good Luck

Judge Ern,
You can go ahead and panic now, its time!!

Send it back for a new barrel or re-barrel it yourself or take a walk down gun show lane!! that is your 3 choices...Do not try to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, it never works..What I am telling you is there is no other fixes....

Hey JudgeG, You sure managed to get the "Remington Haters" and "Hurse/Ambulance Chaser" all fired up. Only noticed a couple of "constructive" responses.

Before you go into a complete panic,

1. What is the actual Load you are using?

2. How far off the Lands are the Barnes bullets?

3. What does the Pressure Ring Expansion(PRE) actually measure on both the "fired" Factory cases and those you reloaded?

NOTE: 0.001" capable Calipers are not accurate enough, you will need a set of 0.0001" capable micrometers. Rotate the Pressure Ring between the anvils to find the widest diameter and call that your PRE.

4. How did the Primers feel as you Seated them?

I checked the expansion compared to a factory loaded round.... .014 expansion????



I don't have any brass around the house, but if I go to my office where the rifle is, I'll do the paper clip deal.

I think Ray is right, new barrel or sale.

I got custom shop to agree to take a look at it. It will be interesting to see what they say.

Ray is right.That chamber is more than the company
using a max sized reamer, their tool holders
and operators are sloppy.The expansion from
picture looks way larger than belt, which means
over .020.You can't even check for the groove with
a feeler properly with that type of expansion,
that would tell if the head was separating.And with that poor of case support, it might let go out through the corner, dismantling you and the rifle.Have them do another barrel.Are you into big bores?A 416 Taylor or 458 if action is long enough.Ed.

Well, I'm not a gunsmith but even I can see your rifle was chambered by a cretin from the Bronze Age. Morally, I'd have a difficult time pawning it off on some other unsuspecting oaf. If'n it twas me (which of course it ain't), I think I'd chalk it up to experience, pack it up along with an extremely nasty letter & send it back to the president of Remington. In the letter, I'd make sure to tell him to stick it where the sun don't shine and not to even consider sending it back to me. Bear in Fairbanks

From just looking at the picture, it looks to me like there are a helluva lot of rifles that show that much expansion, or more, and are perfectly safe to shoot!! But I'd have to mike your cases to know for sure, you can't always tell from just a photo.... If you have actual expansion of 0.014" or more, it would be too much. The barrel could probably be set back one thread and rechambered to remove this problem. If you don't detect case head separation (groove) with the paperclip test, section a couple of fired cases to see if there is any case-wall thinning.

[ 04-26-2003, 19:56: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

Have you considered going to a wildcat 35 RSUM? A custom reamer would be expensive, but at least it would clean up that bad chamber job. I don't know what the cost comparison would be between the custom caliber versus a new barrel to keep it a 350 Rem Mag.

As mentioned above it looks crummy.

Either it's in or out of tolerance. I would take it to a gun dealer and try to sell it to him with full disclosure. If he would not buy it then I would send it back to the mfg.

Can we help the Judge out with the chamber dimension? I have .5137" on my drawing with no tolerances for that dimension!

Judge G- Again, unless you find an incipient case separation beginning to occur ( use a mill and section a case to be dead sure) you really have only a COSMETIC PROBLEM HERE. If you can reload the barss three or four times without a head separation no problems. The brass in this picture is streching at the point where the brass thins behind the belt. Duh! There is no issue about a potentially catastrophic belt blow out! It would drive me crazy till I fixed it, but it's not Dangerous. This barrel can probably be saved by setting it back and rechambering, but the amount of set back required looks pretty excessive to me. It's more than one thread! If you go that route the threads should be re-picked up and extended. Don't let them just wack off a couple of threads and re-chamber. This chamber looks like somebody caught a chamber ring and excessively tried to polish it out. Seen this before! In rechamnbering the new belt position should resolve the problem, but you'll need a chamber cast to be sure!.
If you hang out at enough ranges and pick up enough brass, you will see this and worse many times. Most people don't know enough to even think about it!-Rob

This condition must be endemic at the Custom Shop. About 10 years ago, I purchased a 700KS in 270 and found cases were beginning to separate. Sent the rifle back to Remington. They sent it back, saying it was within tolerance. Took the rifle to the range with Remington factory ammo. ( I was too spooked to try my reloads.) On my third shot, I had a complete case head separation. Sent the rifle, with the separated case and a letter advising them to deal with my attorneys. Rifle was returned with a new barrel. No explanation and apology was not forthcomming. Now I buy old Mannlicher Schoenauers, Steyr Mannlichers, and Sako. Stoney

You could always just sell it to me! Seriously, I'd be interested "as-is" if the price was right.

This is not a rifle you want to shoot as it is as your mind will continue to dwell on the negatives of the rifle.....keep it simple.

1st choice.....back to Remington to fix.
2nd choice.....rebarrel it but then you "eat" the cost.
3rd choice.....demil it and make a lamp.

Hello JudgeG - a possible solution would be to use 8x68 brass instead of belted brass - that would match your chamber quite nicely. A pity to have to shorten them all the way down to 55 mm though. A 9x68 would rattle a few cages.

cheers edi

JudgeG, just ship it somewhere by UPS, that ought to take care of the problem...... and start another one. Why are you so lucky?

[ 04-27-2003, 20:57: Message edited by: Customstox ]

To set barrel back and rechamber would mean
setting back about 10 threads, so whoever does
it, must extend threads forward.Might be easier to do a new barrel.Ed.