Has anyone heard from Fred recently? He was working on a project for me and I am unable to contact him, no reply to e-mail, telephone or letters.

Thank you for any help you can offer.

DMC

I sent him a couple of emails in the last two weeks and no replies either. probably vacation?

i received an email from zhat last week, regarding shot show

quote:

i received an email from zhat last week, regarding shot show

I got mine on 1/3/11

I have been trying to contact Fred for over a year now concerning a BRNO 602 .375 H&H which he was converting to .500 Jeffery for me.

In January of 2009 he requested dummy rounds to correct the feed, so I assume he had at least installed the barrel, and in October 2009 he notified me that he had completed his move to Kalispell, MT and would soon be finishing my project, but numerous emails since then have gone unanswered.

The down payment I made for the work, plus the progress payment he later billed me for and I paid, amount to a substantial sum, and it concerns me that I get no response.

Incidentally, I supplied the dummy rounds as requested.

If he did move to Montana, that would explain why he doesn't answer my letters and his phone has been disconnected.

I have a Browning 71 that he was converting to .450 Alaskan. Started in 2007 and no contact since 2008.

I will have to send a letter to his new address.
Does anyone have a phone number for him?
Thanks,

Z-Hat Custom
432 E. Idaho St., Suite C420
Kalispell, MT 59901

Email: Rifle.Builder@z-hat.com

I've had better luck talking to him on the 4d reamer sight.

4D Reamer Rentals LTD.
432 East Idaho St., Suite C420
Kalispell, MT 59901

If you have questions that are not addressed here, please call
406-752-2520
or E-MAIL us. Reamers@4-dproducts.com
Orders can be faxed to: 406-752-2520
Phone and Fax available 24/7.

I spoke with Fred a few minutes ago. He has had some business entanglements that just cleared up about Christmas. He has just finished unloading his last load of machinery and tooling in his own shop.
He requests that you not contact him at 4D as that is a separate business entity and you will be taking up their time without being able to speak with him. The website and Email address remain the same. As soon as he returns from the SHOT Show he will get the half-dozen rifles in process finished as quick as possible.

He has not forgotten you all. He told me he will not be be taking any new work in until your stuff is completed and return shipped. That is his Number One Priority.

He send his apologies for the delays.

Rich

quote:

He send his apologies for the delays.

One would think he ought to be doing that personally with each customer that he has delayed.

quote:

He has not forgotten you all. He told me he will not be be taking any new work in until your stuff is completed and return shipped. That is his Number One Priority.

He send his apologies for the delays.

Sorry if I was one of the guys waiting on a project for months or years and he ups and moves states and doesn't bother to tell his customers having someone else apologize wouldn't cut it.

I'd bought at least a couple of Fred's micrometer seating dies over the years.

Ordered another in mid-2008.

Waited about a month before sending a note asking when I might expect it.

Got a response a few days later that he didn't have any of them and had ordered some.

I sent a response the same day asking for some sort of estimate on shipping, as I was in a pinch and would make up my own seater for temporary use if I had too, no response.

At approximately the three month mark, I sent another note - no response.

At approximately the four month mark, I started trying to call him - no answer.

Finally, at something north of the six month mark - had enough and called 4D looking for him, low and behold, 15 seconds later he was on the phone and he gave me a dressing down like I hadn't received in years.

Never again.

It is a shame - as I'd spent hundreds, if not over a thousand between die purchases and reamer rentals from him.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

He send his apologies for the delays.

One would think he ought to be doing that personally with each customer that he has delayed.

No shit.

quote:

Originally posted by fireball168:
I'd bought at least a couple of Fred's micrometer seating dies over the years.

Ordered another in mid-2008.

Waited about a month before sending a note asking when I might expect it.

Got a response a few days later that he didn't have any of them and had ordered some.

I sent a response the same day asking for some sort of estimate on shipping, as I was in a pinch and would make up my own seater for temporary use if I had too, no response.

At approximately the three month mark, I sent another note - no response.

At approximately the four month mark, I started trying to call him - no answer.

Finally, at something north of the six month mark - had enough and called 4D looking for him, low and behold, 15 seconds later he was on the phone and he gave me a dressing down like I hadn't received in years.

Never again.

It is a shame - as I'd spent hundreds, if not over a thousand between die purchases and reamer rentals from him.

Ol' Fred boy just got crossed of my off list. And it's not a shame, it's bullshit.

America is going to shit, it isn't just gunsmiths, but we have tons of people who feel their shit doesn't stink and they don't have to do the work we pay for.

I have had several gunsmiths, an outfitter, and a taxidermist on my shit list for a long time.

At least my sister married a taxidermist, even though he is slower than molasses I don't care because now the bastard is family. Speaking of which I need to call and ask about Dad's antelope again.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I spoke with Fred a few minutes ago. He has had some business entanglements that just cleared up about Christmas. He has just finished unloading his last load of machinery and tooling in his own shop.
He requests that you not contact him at 4D as that is a separate business entity and you will be taking up their time without being able to speak with him. The website and Email address remain the same. As soon as he returns from the SHOT Show he will get the half-dozen rifles in process finished as quick as possible.

He has not forgotten you all. He told me he will not be be taking any new work in until your stuff is completed and return shipped. That is his Number One Priority.

He send his apologies for the delays.

Rich

Howdy,

We are pretty well recovered from the turmoil of moving now and getting things rolling better. I will be going through all work on hand in next couple weeks. I printed a report today on outstanding jobs I have it whittled down to 10 jobs that need completion and return to clients, obviously yours is among these. When sorting jobs that were in the lock-up I saw yours it will well along toward being done so I will get you a better idea of a completion date in the next couple weeks.

I have also hired some reliable help to insure that these jobs will be completed in our usual high quality style and get us back to reasonable delivery time. I sincerely apologise for the time you have waited for this project, however the light at the end to the tunnel is visible now.
My plan is to contact all clients this week and then follow up with a more accurate delivery time ASAP. Thanks.

Fred Zeglin
www.z-hat.com
Expert Makers of Fine Custom Hunting Rifles

I received this email October 4, 2009. Despite repeated efforts to contact him, including through his reamer rental company, I have not had a word from him since.

Rich,

You seem to be an apologist for this man. Can you think of any possible explanation for his failure to keep me informed? I would dearly like to hear what it might be.

I suppose I should be encouraged that the "10 jobs that need completion" has been whittled down to "the half-dozen rifles in progress," in only 14 months.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
Rich,

You seem to be an apologist for this man. Can you think of any possible explanation for his failure to keep me informed? I would dearly like to hear what it might be.

Don't be surprised to receive a curt, "He is my friend."

quote:

I have also hired some reliable help to insure that these jobs will be completed in our usual high quality style and get us back to reasonable delivery time. I sincerely apologise for the time you have waited for this project, however the light at the end to the tunnel is visible now.

Xausa Arn't you glad to hear that after contracting with Fred to do your work he has hired someone else to do it. I would say the new help is no more reliable than Fred.

If that email was Oct 2009 what is the crap in Rich's email about just now unloading the machinery for his Shop. Sounds to me like 4D and selling brass and other stuff from his website is paying the bills and gunsmithing is now an after thought.

I had in the past recommended him. Not anymore. He has moved to the list of don't use gunsmiths.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
Rich,

You seem to be an apologist for this man. Can you think of any possible explanation for his failure to keep me informed? I would dearly like to hear what it might be.

Don't be surprised to receive a curt, "He is my friend."

Careful, you're dealing with Agent Orange.


This is yet another of so many horror stories in the gun biz. It's just amazing to me. Thankfully there are some good guys out there still.

I had the customer service talk with a company I was buying a computer from.

They were kind of getting put off with all my questions. I just down right told them if you want my money you need to be nice to me.

Because my money is good other places and there are lots of places to buy computers from.

A company will lose a lot more money from being mean,nasty, unkind, not caring ect to one customer then they will ever lose by doing the right thing to many.

I am patient, and even forgiving. Far more patient and forgiving than most.

Almost to a fault, or so it seems to me, and those who know me, at least on occasion and from time to time.

But I would not stand being ignored and delayed like this.

This kind of conduct, by anyone, in business or not, is disgraceful.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I am patient, and even forgiving. Far more patient and forgiving than most.

This is the email which preceded the one quoted above, sent September 24, 2009:

Fred,

I am back from my driving trip to Oregon and disappointed that I did not get a chance to hook up with you.

I have learned from the web site that your reamer rental business has relocated to Kalispell, MT. When I called the number given, I was given the impression that you had moved your gunsmithing business there, too. It would have been easy for me to run up there from Missoula, where I stopped for a couple of days.

I don't know why you have not responded to my emails and calls, but I submit that it's not good business to treat your customers that way. I don't know if you are in some kind of financial trouble, or what the problem might be, but I can be very understanding, if you will only stay in contact.

If you cannot get the rifle to feed, don't be concerned about that. I am prepared to accept it as a single loader, if that is all you can accomplish, but I do want it back as soon as possible. I am not getting any younger, and my days of shooting big bore rifles are definitely limited.

Bill Warren

Almost a month has elapsed, and nothing has developed on my end. Has anyone else had any success with Fred?

You might try to reach him @McGowan barrels. If I recall, there is a pic of him on the website listed as the shop manager?? I could be wrong though.

quote:

You might try to reach him @McGowan barrels. If I recall, there is a pic of him on the website listed as the shop manager??

Yep his picture is on their site. Guess that explains why he moved.

quote:

Yep his picture is on their site. Might explain some things.

Fred is the one at the right

quote:

Yep his picture is on their site. Guess that explains why he moved.

I was chatting with McGowan about a barrel and mentioned Fred. I was told that Fred was no longer working there. Matter of fact the picture is no longer there. McGowan did indicate others had called looking for him.

Hello, I live in Kalispell MT. and at the address listed above there is no Z-hat customs or gun buisness. It is a UPS drop off. I don't know anyone in town that knows anything about him being in Kalispell.I was going to order some dies from him but something didn't seem right so I didn't.

There is some indication that he may be living in Whitefish. Could someone check on that?

Well I should be glad I didnt ship him my rifle and brass for my 17AH. Would have probably never gotten it back. sad...

Boy howdy, if this were to happen very often gunsmiths might get a bad reputation.

I just don't understand after so many years of good service he would let things deteriorate so quickly

quote:

Posted 14 February 2011 16:51 Hide Post
I just don't understand after so many years of good service he would let things deteriorate so quickly

Thats the puzzlement for me too.

quote:

Originally posted by eurocentric:
I just don't understand after so many years of good service he would let things deteriorate so quickly

It's in their genetic code. 1 out of 1,000 gunsmiths will go an entire career without falling apart and ripping-off their clients in the process. For the other 999, it's just a matter of time.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

quote:

Originally posted by eurocentric:
I just don't understand after so many years of good service he would let things deteriorate so quickly

It's in their genetic code. 1 out of 1,000 gunsmiths will go an entire career without falling apart and ripping-off their clients in the process. For the other 999, it's just a matter of time.

Kinda like Lawyers and Financial Planners?

I've known some pretty crappy gunsmiths in my time but I've also known a whole bunch of hardworking types that were in business all their lives without ever once ripping someone off.

It's been my experience that many 'ripoffs' are due to death or disability rather than any intent to defraud or fail to meet obligations. I've been bitten in this manner and so have several colleagues. Advancing years lead to personality change, senility and death and so anyone who works until he can't do it any longer will always leave some unfinished business.

But I gotta admit that many smiths are very lax in their business practices, some are downright incompetent and should be sued into bankruptcy.

At this time I'm dealing with a smith who's well-known to this board and is actually world-famous in his area of expertise. His wife said my order, paid in full some 4 weeks earlier upon receiving their invoice, was 'on the mailing table' and would be sent ASAP. Unfortunately, I could hear The Lie in her uncertain tone of voice.

That was 4 weeks ago, 8 weeks total since receipt of my money upon their statement/invoice of job completion.

I'm gonna call again and ask about the delivery, whaddayawanta bet I get some sort of runaround again?
Regards, Joe

Mike, not at all the same. Lawyers and Financial Planners (broadly speaking) have, under the law, a fiduciary responsibility to their clients. Definitely, some go bad but those that do often end up in prison. If a lawyer steals $50,000 from a bunch of clients, he'll get disbarred and sent to prison (with rare exception).

When a gunsmith does the same thing, he'll have apologists standing in line talking about what a hardworking artist he is and that he should just get a few more years to make good on his commitments. It's absolutely crazy how low the business standards are that gunsmiths are held to. The customers shoulder almost as much blame as the gunsmsiths. Usually, its our own resident lawyer who quickly starts making excuses for the miscreant.

Mike, I hope you're the one out of a thousand but the odds are stacked against you. All the shysters out there promising cut-rate work that they ultimately can't deliver on put you at a severe disadvantage.

At least lawyers care enough about their profession that they police themselves with ethics committees that actually have teeth. Gunsmiths don't seem to give a shit what a lousy reputation they have (other than bristle and complain about it). Hell, even the ACGG has turned a blind eye to some of their members when they rip-off a customer.

When was the last time you read a thread here where the currently honest gunsmiths called out a not-so-honest gunsmith and took him to task for the improper way he treated a customer? How about never? It's because deep-down, the currently honest gunsmiths know that eventually they will likely be doing the crash-and-burn rip-off themselves.

Hopefully, I've rankled the resident gunsmiths enough that they will give some thought to how they might improve the reputation of their trade.

(PS: I'm neither a lawyer nor a financial planner)

quote:

It's in their genetic code. 1 out of 1,000 gunsmiths will go an entire career without falling apart and ripping-off their clients in the process. For the other 999, it's just a matter of time.

While I chuckled about this, it wasnt without a twinge or two. A gunsmith I had used for years ended up sticking me for a good sized sum . All I ever got out of it was a "oh-well, things went to hell for me and I'm out of the buisness now"

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
When a gunsmith does the same thing, he'll have apologists standing in line talking about what a hardworking artist he is and that he should just get a few more years to make good on his commitments. It's absolutely crazy how low the business standards are that gunsmiths are held to.

At least lawyers care enough about their profession that they police themselves with ethics committees that actually have teeth. Gunsmiths don't seem to give a shit what a lousy reputation they have (other than bristle and complain about it). Hell, even the ACGG has turned a blind eye to some of their members when they rip-off a customer.

When was the last time you read a thread here where the currently honest gunsmiths called out a not-so-honest gunsmith and took him to task for the improper way he treated a customer? How about never? It's because deep-down, the currently honest gunsmiths know that eventually they will likely be doing the crash-and-burn rip-off themselves.

welcome to the world of custom guns......

Unfortunately, this seems to be encountered more than just the "proverbial bad apple" it is becoming a "stereotype," which as you all know really should not be applied to all....even though there really is always a grain in truth in it.........

You do know a Ponzi scheme is illegal.......imagine that, an entire business community seems to be based on such a practice. Perhaps Madoff was an advisor...

IIRC didn't Jorge say in one thread he would "never again" buy a custom gun. Now you know why.

unfortunately, a custom gun is the only way to go when you shoot as many wildcats as I do. My experience has been that most gunsmiths will be nice to you when they need your business, other times, they don't want to hear from you.

Had his 257 Hawk. That barrel is now part of my sidewalk. So far it seems to be holding up.