I've got a top-eject Winchester 94 in 375 Win but would like to get a little more steam out of it for hunting our bigger deer.

Would it make sense to rechamber it to use the 356 Win case, hoping for a couple of hundred more fps with heavier bullets?

I realise the .356 case is a bit shorter than the .375. Is that a big problem or just an excuse not to trim cases for a while?

Would a reamer with the exact neck size be necessary or could a smaller existing calibre's be used? Assuming .356 reamers are a bit rare, could a 308 or 358 Win one be used? Also, since my fitter-turner buddy might be asked to do the job, is it hard to get the barrel out of the 94 - or could it be done without removing it?

It's not going to pick up much, at the same pressure - it would effectively be a 375/308 r -- about 100 fps...

quote:

I've got a top-eject Winchester 94 in 375 Win but would like to get a little more steam out of it for hunting our bigger deer

Much easier to have proper shot placement.

I'm all for big caliber 94s, and have converted some to 405 (2.2 inch). However, remember that the 356s were all made on the reinforced receiver 94. Does that make it stronger? I don't know.
Personally I'd convert a Marlin. Stronger.
As for shot placement; that applies no matter what the caliber. That is never a reason not to get another rifle. Or caliber.

Thanks guys,
Though there's not much in it, I was thinking that the bigger bore would make getting the 358-Win-like velocities, supposedly attainable with the 356, easier to approach if not reach.

Yes, dpcd, bullet placement is important. Though our sambar don't get big as those in India, they can grow up to 700 pounds and have a reputation for toughness. I usually use a 9.3x62, 338WM, 35 Whelen or .450/.400 but fancied a light rifle easier to carry on a horse or ATV as I get further into time-on. I've got an M86 .45-70 my buddy has lengthened the throat of, too, but with the 24-inch barrel it is quite long and heavy. My 'safe' is full and getting more than 15 guns in this state requires elaborate security I can't be bothered with.

My 375-Win rifle does have the reinforced action and, not being angle eject, has nothing cut out of it. My thought was just to get a bit more power out of the one I have and like, without too much trouble or expense. So what do you think of the technical issues?

Is the shortness of the 356 Win case a big deal? Would we have to take the barrel off?

Just for interest, tell me more about the shortened 405 Win. Was a bigger magazine tube needed?

I traded my Win. Big Bore for a Marlin .375 due to my eyes couldn't deal with iron sights any more.

With the Marlin I boosted the velocities a good bit using AA 1680.

200 gr. Sierra 2340 fps.

220 gr. Hornady 2350 fps.

I used the same powder charge with both bullets.

The light gun smacks ya a bit though!

Hip

P.S. I use sized up .30-30 brass for cast bullet loads.

Since both have the same length, same rim OD, and you already have the reinforced frame 94, all you need is a barrel. Of course you have to take the barrel off, but that is easy.

Those are good, heavy loads, Hipshoot. Being a bit chicken, I might feel more secure if I got such results from the more capacious case. I've got plenty of the 220-grain Hornadies (my old boss, a grammarian, would argue that is the correct plural) but would prefer more sectional density in case of running shots. Can you suggest any heavier bullets?

I've got a handful of the Woodleigh 235-grain 'Hydros', which might work in the bigger case but took up too much powder space in the 375W. They could be seated out to single load with the long throat, of course, but the action was too short to feed those ones from the magazine.

Have you any tips regarding removing the barrel, dpcd?

Your English teacher needs to go back to 6th grade. The plural of a proper noun, like a name, that ends in Y, you always just add an S. Unless it already ends in S or Z, then you add ES.
So, more than one Hornady, is Hornadys.

Oh, removing the barrel from a 94; sure, find a 13 year old girl, and she will be able to do it easily.
Strip off everything from the barrel; mag tube and handguard. Open the action. If you leave it closed, your extractor will break and cause really bad things to happen. Remove the barrel just like anything else; hold the barrel in blocks; I always use rosin dusted, wood. Turn the frame with a big wrench, best to pad it with aluminum, and cover that with tape. Just to protect the bluing. I use a huge Crescent wrench, just like PO Ackley did. Put it close to the front; otherwise you will warp your frame, also a bad thing. Some guys reinforce the inside; I never do.
It won't be on very tight because the contact shoulder is small.
Or just bring it over and we'll do it.
I often remove the guts and stock from the frame, because I am usually going to alter the carrier or feed rails, but in your case, you aren't.

Sam,
There is data for AA1680 in Hornadys (OK dp? ) manual. As far as heavier bullet, why not try a cast? You have good diameter.
I use RL7 with a 240 gr. cast that I got through the Marlin Owners site. Never cronyed it though.

Hip

I did't make the rules, but my Mother was an English teacher.
I remember her favorite joke.
English teacher is visiting the country. A local lady sees that she is from out of town and asks her: "Where are you from?" She answers; "I'm from a place where people don't end sentences with prepositions."
Country girl says, "OK, where are you from, Bitch?"

Guess your Mom had a sense of humor too/also!

Hip

Yes she did, very snippy and never hesitated to tell people how she felt. But she was actually a genius and the rest of the world was, you know, somewhere else on the scale.

Thanks dpcd, my grand-daughter is 13, so I'll ask her to do it.

I can agree with you on the es, anyway.

I remember a sports sub-editor sending out a head about two Couch brothers, saying 'Couchs play well'.

Upon my querying the lack of an e, he said:
"I didn't want them to look like furniture."

PS: lf the teacher ended her sentence with the word prepositions, was she breaking the rule?

Hip; just noticed you wanted it to be a possessive; it needs an apostrophe. Hornady's manual. I am not the moderator, but you asked.

You're right! That is an easy one, but I was concentrating too much on my typing skills. I don't have that much brain power to do both correctly at the same time!

Hip

That's ok. It's usually the plural possessives that end in S that get most people.

Our possessive style at The Age was to add an s, except to sibilant words.

Getting back to guns, dpcd, how did your 405 Win conversion go? Could that case be necked down to .375 and chambered in the original barrel?

That is a word you never hear; but is the same rule I posted above.
405, 2.2 inch. I made brass from 303 brass, and turned the rims down; so no larger magazine was needed. I did a 94, and a few Marlins. One guy loaded them up so hot that the lever opened by itself after every shot. Made follow up shots faster. I got 2100 fps with a 300 grain bullet, but I don't recommend that now.
You wouldn't gain much by rechambering your 375. Could it be done? Sure.

Thanks for that, dpcd.

Turning down rims doesn't sound like much fun. Can you think of any other way to get a bit more power out of that rifle and barrel?

Someone told me they used rimless (358?) cases in their 356 Win. Is that safe, losing the rim's obturation? If it is, could some fatter rimless case be used in my reinforced 94?

It is not only fun, it is super easy to turn down rims on a lathe. Child's play.
Rims do not obturate; if it will extract, then you can use rimless brass. Rims are only there for headspacing and extraction. If you headspace on the shoulder and extract using a standard case, or even a rebated rim, fine.
Larger cases? you have to be careful with that; this is not a bolt action.

S338 - I built one of these. It an easy conversion to do.

You’ll need a pair of 356 cartridge guides or modify your existing ones. If using an existing 375 Win barrel, the chamber can be reamed out using a 308 Win reamer fitted with a 375 pilot. The barrel already has a 375 neck and throat and the chamber is already reamed to accept a 30/30 rim (which has the same dimensions as the rim on a 356 Win case).

For reloading, Redding make 375/308 dies and I use a 30/30 shell holder. I’m pretty sure Simplex can make a set of dies too.

Mine won’t hold rimless 308 Win cases in the mag, but I believe by adding a little weld metal to increase the height, then re-shaping the tab at end of the lever link, you might be able to use rimless brass. This would make it cheap to feed.

Thanks dpcd and JFE,
So I could get a .404 or even belted magnum base to fit but if not even well-shortened, sparingly loaded cases are safe, that would seem a bridge too far.

Back to the 356W case, then, which JFE points out brings its own issues but has to be safer. (When my gunsmith mate comes back from cruising the Danube and I run this stuff past him, I'll give you a call.)

If I can find some more Woodleigh 235-grain 'Hydros', I might see if he can do something with them on the lathe, too

Not hi-jacking the thread, just a side note...here in Oz, the only problem with a 405 is that there are no locally made 410-412 barrels.
I had to import a Pac-Nor from the states for mine....a long wait and quite expensive....just sayin'

Roger

Feel free, Roger, my angle on it is almost complete.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
So I could get a .404 or even belted magnum base to fit but if not even well-shortened, sparingly loaded cases are safe, that would seem a bridge too far.

When Winchester brought out the 356Win and 307Win they went to a larger barrel shank and finer thread. Winchester did shoehorn the 450Marlin in their 1894 platform and dropped the fat sides.

Marlin introduced the 356 Win in the 336 but apparently did not release the 307Win because they ran into pressure problems. They eventually went to finer V thread on the barrel shanks on rifles chambered for the 450M, 338ME and 308ME.

Finally, instead of trying to modify your supply of Woodleigh hydros, you should consider some locally made copper pills. I read reports of 210gr HP’s made specially for the 375 Win and results on large game was impressive. They’re made in SA, go under the name Atomic 29 and have a site on Facebook.

Thanks Joe, so the angle-eject action is stronger or better suited to the fatter case, not weaker because steel has been removed?

My thoughts on the Woodleigh hydros were that they were too long to give good velocities in the 375 Win but that with the 356 case it might be less of a problem. It occurred to me that a long hole might be bored in the back of hydros and filled wth lead, then some amount cut off the back to return to the lighter mass, or not for a heavier bullet.

Does Atomic do a heavier .375 bullet as well.

Winchester must have believed the change to the barrels in the BB AE models is a stronger arrangement than that of the BB top eject models, even with the metal removed for the side ejection.

Don’t know why you’re trying to modify hydros that cost around $5 each these days. It’s a solid and a specialised bullet. The Atomic 29 offering is cheaper and better suited to Sambar hunting.

There was a recent post on FB indicating they could bump up the diameter for 38/55 users. Perhaps they might entertain a run of heavier pills if you asked. However, in a standard 375W you will have the same problem as the hydro - reduced case capacity. Judging by field reports and recovered pills, the light weight 210gr pills seem to work fine on scrub bulls.

Thanks again, Joe,
The chance of finding 'Hydros' now is probably an even bigger impediment. Finding any particular bullets in the shops is hard enough.

In Oz, I'd be thinking you'd be looking at .40-303, or .44-303. I think I have the .44-303 reamer, if I didn't give up on ever using it and sold it off.

I was hoping not to replace the barrel or have it rebored, but I suppose another wildcat could be made on the .303 case. However, I think as cpcd said that would mean turning down the rims. Also, I think the capacity is smaller than the 308's and that new brass might be not be much easier to find now than for the 356.

I might see what 356 brass is around before proceeding.

A 444 would be the next logical choice IMO. Unless you’re looking for a wildcat.

BTW, 356 brass can be formed from 444 brass. It has the same head and rim dimensions but is longer. I’ve never tried it but after trimming 444 brass to length, it should only take one pass through a 375/308 FLS die to form a case. Maybe use some Imperial sizing wax to help the process.

Yes, the 303 has a rim OD of .540, whilst the .356 is .509 or so.
But don't be afraid of turning down rims. It is super easy and I'm sure you know someone with a lathe. It's just brass.
However case length on a 375 win and a 356 are the same, so just recharger for 375/356.

I guess if I found 356 cases impossible to find I might consider the 303 idea. And yes, I have heard of older 94s without even the action reinforce being converted to 444.

Getting back to Winchester's changing the barrel thread, to what extent is that likely to make much difference? Though the later barrel has a bigger diameter there, I recall that either P.O.Ackley or Julian Hatcher experimented with turning down barrels over the chamber and found width was no big deal.

What makes the Marlin action stronger, dpcd? I've heard that overloaded Marlins tend to blow the barrel out the front (which some argue is the lesser of two evils).

Paul,

Regarding action strength the link below discusses some destruction testing of various leverguns in an effort to assess their relative strength.

https://castboolits.gunloads.c...levergun-test-Part-1

FYI Bertram lists 356Win brass.

Happy Easter everyone.

Marlins are stronger due to the fact that the bolt is enclosed fully by the frame. Comparing only to the Win 94. I did not blow any to destruction like the guy from 2004 though. Just built 405s on them.
Yes, Hatcher turned the barrel of an 03 down over the chamber to 1/8ths wall thickness; worked fine. He finally used proof loads to crack it open. And those are not even CM steel; nickel steel.
Changing the barrel threads; I say it doesn't matter. Winchester did the same thing with the Model 70, for the WSMs, but were are talking about a lot more pressure.
Overloaded Marlins will blow the lever open; I have seen it.

I'VE DONE IT!

Hip

Lever action, Power Assist. Makes for much faster shooting.

OK, so having read your link, JFE, I've kinda got the strength situation.

Do the Atomic 29 bullets leave a bow-wave effect like the Hydrostatic Stabilised Woodleighs or have some means of making them expand? I can't get into FB from my phone, so can only see that they are a bit expensive, too. I did find a table including heavier .375" bullets but the 210-grain one was not in it.

What do you think of the latest Bertram brass? Should I anneal it before the first load?

Considering the 94's action issues, maybe I should look for a modern 86 in .45-70 with a recoil pad and shorter barrel than my present one, and put a Skinner peep on it rather than a pesky tang or vulnerable cross-arm aperture. Hopefully my mate still has the reamer he used to lengthen the throat.