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No that is not the point. The point is that welders who work in the nuclear industry are being held up as superior. Now that may or may not be true, I have no clue. To further the point regarding the level of skill required in the nuclear industry, you (J.D) have stated "when a nuclear worker screws up, he can go to federal prison". Some folks such as myself who are familiar with the law, have said in some many words...sounds like bullshit. You have now described the "screw up" as "...involved an improper sign-off on nuclear-stamped materials, actually an out-of-date welding cert if it matters. It's against federal law to attest to a lie when certifying nuclear materials or procedures, and they WILL put you in prison for it." The "screw up" you have described has nothing to do with the skill level of a nuclear welder, yet you your original point was that welders in the nuclear industry have to be very skilled because if they "screw up" they will go to prison. BTW, the above illustrates what is called flawed logic.  KC, I respectfully disagree. There is a HUGE difference under local, state, and federal law between making a mistake aka a "screw up" and falsifying documents or performing services for which you are not certified for. For example, an investment advisor can give you bad advice. That is not against the law. However he must have the proper certifications to give you investment advice. The same investment advisor can have conflicts of interest but as long as they are disclosed there is nothing illegal. Lie about them you can be subject to penalties under the law. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Fwiw the welding is to fix a spot that bears recoil forces on the frame. And the frame of course is where the serial number is. Is everyone saying it's perfectly legal for me to take it to a local NON FFL licensed tig welder and have him do this provided I stay there and watch and he doesn't keep it overnight? On the welding part, is everyone also saying the spot has to be heat treated after the welding? Sorry, but I know from nothing about welding. I just want to know, so I can talk to him like I have at least some idea what the deal is. | |||
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Forget the local welding shop. Where it involves a critical area of a firearm, let an experienced gunsmith do the job. He is the expert and will ultimately be responsible for the results. And if you can't find a local gunsmith who can do the job, then ship it to one who can. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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As far as the welding goes and re heat treating It depends... On how much heat will be applied to said area and how large that area is. I would need to see the area to be welded before I could make a judgement. But if it's small enough and in a non structural area, the as welded strength should be be fine. What you are worried about is the welding being to hard and brittle. Almost never is a weld softer then the base metal when talking ferrous metals. Again I'd need to see it to be sure. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Mike, I don't really care whether YOU believe me or not. If you really think it's BS, why, how about putting your money where your mouth is? How about this: we each put $1000 in an escrow account with a lawyer of our mutual cnoice, then we each try to prove the other is wrong about it being a federal felony to sign off on a nuclear safety lie, then I show the lawyer the magazine and newspaper and INPO(Institute of Nuclear Power Operations) articles, then the lawyer uses the info to find out the legal details, then the lawyer gives me the money and gives you the bill, and then I go home happy! Sounds like A Pretty Good Plan to me, how about it? Heck, I'll even split the winnings with Shack in appreciation for the opportunity! Or, how about you just take your head out of the darkness and ask most anyone who's ever worked nuclear in any position of authority? Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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J.D., You should re-read the the above posts. Nobody here is disputing that it is not a federal felony to falsify documents or that it is not a federal felony to perform work for which you do not hold the proper (current/unexpired) certifications when required to by the federal government. Please identify where anybody in the above posts has stated that. We are pointing out how you are mixing apples and oranges. I will explain again: Going to prison for falsifying documents and/or performing work when your certification is expired is a completely different issue than going to prison for "a screw up." If you don't understand the difference between performing a task poorly; i.e., "screwing up" and falsifying documents and/or performing a task for which you don't hold the proper certifications in a government regulated industry where the government requires the certifications; then you are ignorant of some of the basic concepts of our laws and you may also want to enroll in a reading comprehension and logic course. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I need some kind of license to weld firearms.......oops, sorry ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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What does the manufacturer say? It may qualify as warranty repair or they may be able to recommend someone. You also might try contacting a few gunsmithing schools and locate some 'smiths in your state who could do the work. I would definitely use a gunsmith/welder. | |||
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Bait and switch bullshit. The point was to find a welder for the problem at hand. You inferred the two(gunsmith/welder) were not readily available, I disagreed and named two I have seen weld personally. How about we get you a stainless zipper...you put your thousand up,bring your guy wear the zipper anywhere you want. He gets to weld an inch, then I get an inch. Bet I dont burn you and He does. Thats the point. we exist....just outside your narrowminded, elevated, certified world Chuck Warner Pistolsmith / | |||
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Badges? We got no badges. We don't need no stinking badges! | |||
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dupe post Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968 TITLE 18, UNITED STATE CODE, CHAPTER 44 (21) The term "engaged in the business" means— (D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; | |||
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I would send it to Alan Harton of Single Action Service in Houston (an FFL holder). A supreme TIG man as well as custom six (or five) gun builder. He restores old Colt SAA's as well. I was visiting him and he showed me a blown early Colt SAA. Top strap blown out, cylinder in two, etc. He machined the top strap, made an insert and tig'd it all together, heat treated it and sent it out for CCH. He built a new cylinder, blued it and the old girl looked like new and shot like a champ. You will not be disappointed. Here's a shot of a Ruger he did for me. He welded up the rear sight channel, heat treated it then machined the Old Model Single Six style top strap. Sent it to Mr. Turnbull for CC's, rechambered the cylinder and I ended up with a pretty unique 44 Special.   | |||
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Thanks everyone. The legal material from bcp may be really what I was getting at here. Too bad they had to get gunsmiths involved in that licensing mess at all. Real shame that ever got started. They should have a specific exclusion for welders along with those others who were mentioned. And I appreciate the suggestion of smiths who could help. Alan Horton did a great job on the Ruger. I especially like those stocks, wherever they came from. At this point I'm just weighing the different options including trying to find someone out of town who can do the smithing, and who does himself or has a working relationship with someone who does a whole LOT of tig welding generally and who also really knows my gun. The other parts of the discussion here have been educational and I'm enjoying reading them, so carry on gentlemen... | |||
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The real question is what gun and problem do you have? I dont recall that part. I am aware of a gun savvy laser welder as well that has very good references....... Chuck Warner Pistolsmith / | |||
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nevermind....I deduced it from your other posts. I think help is more readily available than you think. Best of luck and hope you get it sorted Chuck Warner Pistolsmith / | |||
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You forget I've seen the work of BOTH worlds and you have not, so NOW who's narrowminded? Sure, many real-world welders are as good as the best and some smiths' work is maybe as good as the best, but most of the nuclear welders are almost as good as the best and some of the Instrument Welders ARE the best. Ditto for some welders in the surgical-equipment manufacture business. Most if not all real-world welders and smiths would receive a SUBSTANTIAL pay increase and super benefits if they worked nuclear, but there's a reason why most can't qualify. It's fairly common knowledge that nuclear welders make $50K-$100K(plus super benefits) and even more depending upon outage schedules and area of the country. All this without really breaking a sweat most of the time. That means that the nuclear industry can demand the very best, and they generally get it. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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kcstott FYI ; Mine doesn't as it's unlimited with #4 proficiency ratings .  I do however have a certificate for Laser operations two types which is reviewable and renewable every two years , That expires Nov 12 Th. 2010 . 1) FAA Sub section B Paragraph 12 page number such and such Repairman certificates are not required for repair stations located outside the United States. Now you know why Airlines like overseas operations repair facilities and their pay scales ! Any of you Feeling safer up in the budget conscience Mega carriers ?. PS ; Watch those air frame separations they can become quite drafty extremely quickly I might add !.    | |||
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On my last trip to India in 1995 I received an official Certificate to Perform Brian Surgery. Does that count too?  John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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I've been familiar with the FAA since I began flying in the late '60s and I'm not surprised at this, I know of no pilot who has any respect for the FAA 'organization'. I'd 10 times rather charter or rent than fly ANY airliner. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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If I'm Brian, I'd give that a skip..."you know, I'm really feeling much better now.." | |||
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Clearly you contradict yourself not once, but twice in this post alone. you state youve seen both, yet I have not? You make a very broad presumtion that is quite wrong. I based my comments on your statements. you based yours on your ego. I have been blessed to have met some of the finest techs in the world in a variety of fields. You assumed incorrectly that I have not. and yes, some nuclear guys as well, welders included. You are neither gunsmith or welder yet adopt an attitude of advising gunsmiths and clients by the form of your posts. Hobbyists are just that,Hobbyists. When you can make a living following your own advise, Then presume to tell those who do, how to do it. Theres an old saying "Those who can, do. Those who cant, Teach." Lets add this for the likes of you, that have a degree and think it makes you an expert in a field you cannot succeed in..." and those who can do neither, become self proclaimed on an internet forum" oh yeah....the second contradiction...you state the nuclear industry can demand the very best, and generally get it..... You Sir, CLEARLY Demonstrate otherwise... Chuck Warner Pistolsmith / | |||
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kcstott FYI ; Mine doesn't as it's unlimited with #4 proficiency ratings . I do however have a certificate for Laser operations two types which is reviewable and renewable every two years , That expires Nov 12 Th. 2010 . 1) FAA Sub section B Paragraph 12 page number such and such Repairman certificates are not required for repair stations located outside the United States. Now you know why Airlines like overseas operations repair facilities and their pay scales ! Any of you Feeling safer up in the budget conscience Mega carriers ?. PS ; Watch those air frame separations they can become quite drafty extremely quickly I might add !. Is that certified under AWS or just FAA? I was under the assumption that AWS certs must be renewed annually with a sing off from your boss say you've being doing the same boring crap all year long that warranted the cert to begin with. But there again AWS doesn't have standard on Airframe welding either. As for the condition of the planes we fly in. I just say Hit something hard!! I don't want to limp away from this!!!! www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Chuck, merely MEETING the craftsmen isn't the same as seeing their work being tested, you should try it some time. It's just barely possible that you might be capable of learning something... I freely admit that I wouldn't make a wart on a GOOD welder's butt however I WAS a successful smith until I doubled my entry-level wage by going nuclear. Even now, as one measure of MY success as a smith, I still turn down about 80% of the work offered me because of the demand & backlog. Can you say the same? I've shown pics of my work here and I've had smithing articles published in national magazines, how about you? Maybe you need to stay under the porch with the rest of the puppies instead of trying to run with the big dogs. You have a good day now, y'hear? Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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J.D., Chuck is one of the most able 1911 pistolsmiths in the country. Nearly 20-years ago he colaberated with Layne Simpson on the book, The Custom Government Model  His custom 1911 work is well known within the 1911 community and he knows what he's talking about. To get a full custom gun built to his specification will take over a year. Compared to him, you, sir, are the "puppy". John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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John, I have lately come to have exactly as much respect for you as I now have for Chuck, and have had for Layne Simpson for over 20 years. Exactly the same. 1 year's bookings isn't much. However I have no doubt that Chuck does OK work just like you, 'cause I know that Layne is big on surface finish and looks. Now, if Chuck had had his name on the cover, or the book had been written by someone else, or on a more interesting & more difficult/advanced subject, why then I might have a different opinion. Chuck's expertise and his work may be superlative but his ignorance of nuclear expertise is just as great as yours. I suggest that both of you observe destructive and even non-destructive testing of weldments done by a REALLY GOOD welder as compared to most any smith. It might just put some brand-new colors in your tired old paintbox. Like someone once said, 'If you guys are so good, how come you're not making the BIG bux?" Well, the nuclear welders ARE! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Now we're getting somewhere. From now on, I only want to hear opinions about gunsmithing from people who are making more money in a completely different field. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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J.D. First, Chuck is a very good friend of mine and as fine a 1911 pistolsmith as there is. Second, I have not, and will not impugn your work, your abilities, your experience or your education as I'm sure you're more than competent in your field; I just don't care about your "nuke certifications". That doesn't mean I don't respect what it takes to get one; only that it doesn't have a G-damn thing to do with gunsmithing and I for one am sick and tired of you boasting about it constantly. Give it a break already. Finally, I'll add that I'm just devastated that you don't respect me and my "OK" work. John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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Now, back to the topic of this thread: According to an article I read this morning in the latest issue of Shooting Sports Retailer, page 14, the ATF has reversed decades of Gun Control Act interpretation, and announced that shipping a firearm to another facility for non-standard commercial purposes (outside welding), such action constitutes a "transfer" and a 4473 must be accomplished. So, there's the answer to the original question posed in this now-boring thread. If a dealer sends it out to another shop they must do a 4473, so I'd say if an individual wants it sent out for welding they'd have to use a dealer to record the subsequent "transfers". John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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Toomany Tools ; Thank You John as always informative and useful ! 
Kerry ; AWS Welding Certification Below is from the American Welding Society's own page How long is the welding certification good for? A welder that certifies using the AWS certified welder program is certified indefinitely provided he or she provides acceptable evidence of welding activity at required intervals. The record of welding activity must be auditable and documented. ( Mine were every 30 days as I hold a valid MD.Structural Engineering in addition to my PhD. ) I also should have stated my certifications came from the Boeing Via FAA A&P AWS, ASME, ASTM  In addition to my EX employer Scaled Composites ,I also frequently was " Loaned " too my other employers one of which is above . As I'm qualified to certify and sign my John Henry on the line of liability concerning those matters ,in addition to certifying composite structural compliance ; I have an open ticket . One major draw back ; If something goes awry it's my azz in the hot seat . I've been warmed up a couple times in my career but knock on synthetics I haven't been fried ; YET !!! | |||
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Gosh Chuck, I guess I'm lucky that I was able to fool so many of the big dogs for 25 years. Too bad they never mentioned that on any of my performance appraisals, isn't it? I like to think of these discussions as Evolution In Action (survival of the fittest in a way). My opinion is worth exactly what it cost you; some will agree with the info, some will disagree, and some will either file it away for the future or simply forget it. My aim is to impart information, nothing more. The original poster asked for possible sources for good SS welding and I gave him 2 of the best. One of them happened to be a Pipefitter Instrument Welder(nuclear) and the other a Boilermaker Welder(non-nuclear) because I KNOW both of these will be among the best due to continual federal, state, insurance and industry oversight. If you don't believe me or don't wanta hear about nuclear any more, boy have I got a suggestion for YOU! No not that(VBG)! Just engage your ignore key and make us both happy. The 'survivors' among the viewers can make their own decisions based upon their assessment of our relative believability and experience. Hugs and kisses, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Well I guess That's what I was getting at is they do expire or lapse for lack of a better term if you are not welding and are not re-upping the documents. That's what I meant by expire. So you're a Skunk works guy?? No that really COOL!!!! www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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so a revolver is a pushfeed..... right????  go big or go home ........ DSC-- Life Member NRA--Life member DRSS--9.3x74 r Chapuis | |||
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So is my HK 45USP GOD FRIGGIN DAMN IT!!! DOHH!!!! www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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For the beneift of those who were following this, here's what I came up with on the crack in the frame - I found a local welding/fabricating shop that agreed to examine it. They're a big outfit and do large industrial jobs and have people who've spent decades specializing in tig welding. A group of them looked at it with magnifiying lenses and they said what it really is, is a factory casting defect that's been there all along. They said it had nothing to do with shooting stress or recoil or past owner abuse. They could tell it had been shot but didn't think it had widened the crack any. They also explained how they could tell what kind of crack it was (I won't weary you with that). And they said welding wouldn't help the situation at all and could even be counter-productive. The bottom line is, they told me they were confident I could go ahead and shoot it. So that's where I am. Regarding the new BATF interpretation reported above - it sounds like a lawsuit might be in order. If what it is, is just another way to attack gun ownership by making it impractical to get repair work done, because so many welders or other craftsmen are not FFLs, then the rule is arbitrary, capricious and bears no relationship to the main purpose of the Gun Control Act. That's another way of saying their "new rule" is a violation of the Second Amendment and the Fifth Amendment Due Process requirements as well. It sounds like vindictiveness against gun-owners for its own sake. Somebody needs to look into that. | |||
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This is what this thread, (and forum...) needs more of: Productive, useful inputs accompanied by photos of beautiful firearms! That is a gorgeous pistol, thanks for posting Boxhead. P.S. What kind of wood are the grips made out of?
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looks like a resin stabilized burl www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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