The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing FFLs Needed For Repairs?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Let's assume I have this handgun that's stainless steel and it needs welding work. And because it's stainless, I'm advised the work is best done by TIG welding. And assume local smiths don't do TIG welding and in fact it'd be difficult to get welding done locally at all by any smiths. Also assume I've already asked a couple welding shops who could do it, but they've turned it down because they are not FFLs. One other thing - assume the gun's expensive and I want to keep it and not just sell it off on the cheap. Recommended solutions? | ||
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Yeah, find an FFL holder who can tig weld stainless.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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IIRC, They need an FFL if they are in the business to do gun repairs or they keep the serialed numbered part overnight. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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That is my understanding also. | |||
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I think you guys are confusing that a licensed gunsmith does not need to log your repair in unless he keeps it overnight. I do not know if it is legal for an unlicensed individual to work on someone else's gun ot not and that includes cleaning it. I would think it would be OK as long as you were present, but again I do not know for sure. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Aside from the keeping it overnite thing, I don't believe there's a licensing requirement, fed or state, for working on firearms. | |||
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You assume too much. Really... Quit it!  Plenty of smith's TIG weld. Find one and send it to them. There are several or more right here on this board. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Find a local guy you like and bring there, wait while he does the work. | |||
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Still technically not legal. A gunsmith is defined as anyone in business performing services on firearms. But if you are a welder and someone brings you a gun. Now technically you are performing Gunsmithing as you are now performing a service on a firearm for profit. And that is the big issue FOR PROFIT. If the guy does the work under the table or does it for beer money then ..... it's a gray area but he's not being paid so it's as if you asked a friend to do the work for free. BATFE is very clear on this. And just to be crystal clear A firearm is any part that has the main serial number on it. And I say main serial number as many HK's have the serial number on every major part of the firearm. That said there is a lot of work going on that the BATFE doesn't know about that is perfectly harmless but illegal just the same. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Related questions - Is it legal for an FFL gunsmith who doesn't do TIG welding to farm it out or subcontract the welding part of it to a non-FFL welder, and then get the gun back from him and finish doing related other work himself? Is that OK under the theory the whole project is under the FFL smith's control or supervision? I guess that's another way of asking does everybody employed by a smith also have to be separately licensed? Another part of this that concerns me is I'd have to send it off out of town and I have no way of knowing if the rules are going to be followed there as well. So, if the rules are not followed and there's a problem, who does it all fall back on? The gun's owner or the gunsmith or the welder or everybody equally? With standard buyer/seller transfers I seem to recall it's the buyer or transferee who would bear most of the brunt of the problem. It's hard to believe the NRA or someone hasn't tried to get legislation passed to correct what's such an obvious bad and unjust rule, as relates to gunsmiths. | |||
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I've taken welding to another shop and not worried about whether or not it was "legal", but then I've always lived on the edge. John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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I'll ask a couple of simple questions ; One ; What needs welding on this SS pistol and is it investment cast alloy ?. Is an FFL Tig welder " Certified " ?. If it's a critical area weld DAM the BATFE ,I would want a Qualified welding Specialist ,preferably with an inert gas chamber ! I understand a welding shops argument for NOT welding on a firearm ! Whether or not legal for them to do so or not . In a word LIABILITY it just isn't in their best interest !. I'm sure several gunsmiths use the services of Quality certified welders often ,as many smiths farm out portions of certain projects !.   | |||
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Been welding on guns without a license have ya? Seriously, IF there was a job that needed doing that I couldn't do, but one that could be done at a local trades shop, I would simply sub contract the work to them, FFL or not. If they weren't the holder of an FFL, then I would make sure that the job was in and out the same day. And I as an FFL holder, would assume that responsibility. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Shack, I think you are "over thinking this".. Call several gunsmiths whether local or not, tell them what you want done and find one that can do it and sned them the gun. If you don't want to ship the gun and nobody can do it locally then don't get the work done. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I have always though it to be an issue of possession that required a license and the owner of the firearm waiting with this solved it. When I was looking for someone to magnaflux my Enfield receiver I didn’t have an issue once I explained to them I would come buy on my day off and wait until it was done. I have even had weld work done on a CIII firearm and just physically waited with the firearm while the work was done. Had a great time watching and talking with the guys in the shop but I did verify with the owner that no one in his shop was a felon (CIII technicality to avoid). | |||
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I've been around gunsmiths since high school, and I've been around professional nuclear-certified welders almost all my professional life. If I EVER meet a gunsmith whom I thought could REALLY weld, he'll be the first. If I ever even HEAR OF a really good gunsmith welder, he'll be the first. Have held TIG welding work by 2 ACGG smiths and both left noticable voids and undercuts, mainly voids. It was obvious that one of them didn't even have a clue about heat-treatment. I personally wouldn't make even a wart on a GOOD welder's butt however I've seen some good ones and none of them were smiths. BTW TIG ain't magic; it's just as full of pitfalls for the unwary as any other welding procedure, it's just faster and cleaner. Most competent welders can stick-weld SS just fine, you may not even need TIG. Go to the Pipefitter's Local union hall in the largest close city and ask the Business Agent about any nuclear Instrument Welders who do side jobs; Boilermakers are another source of really high-quality welders, they must be certified in order to weld pressure vessels. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I don't mean to rain on anyone parade but being certified means you meet the MINIMUM standards. And that's a far cry from being a decent welder. I've been tig welding on and off all my adult life. I've never been certified but our shop had a CWI (certified weld inspector) and He qualified my welds on mild, tool and stainless steel. Being certified is a whole other discussion. But in a nut shell all it means is: One you can read a print in english. And two you can lay a decent bead with a minimum of porosity and inclusions. I doesn't mean you know jack about weld fitting HAZ (Heat Affected Zone) or what it going to do to the heat treat. All you were trained to do was lay a bead in a specified joint to a specified thickness. Now I don't make my living welding but I've seen the work of many a certified welder and it leaves a lot to be desired. The thing is you need some one that just good and understands what they are welding on. Stainless in many cases requires back gassing to prevent sugering of the weld. Basically you need shielding gas on both sides of the weld inside and out. like doc said in a chamber. Even if it's cast it will weld very nice 410 and 416 weld very nice cast or wrought I'd be more then happy to do it for you Pro bono but I don't think you have anyway of getting it anywhere near here. As for the subcontracting deal. So long as the firearm never leaves the sight of the FFl holder he may sub it out to anyone unlicensed. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Good Lord, not the Nukie crap again. Hows things in Springfield Homie?  _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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You know, Westpac, I don't make fun of you about YOUR professional experience and training, so what's the deal with you? Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I have met a LOT of "certified" welders and Gunsmiths. As was stated above, rarely do the two go together. However, I am no longer a certified welder, nor have I ever been a "certified" gunsmith, I can however, TIG a new frontstrap or frame tangs on your 1911, and rarely will you be able to tell, John (toomanytools) Falls into that category as well. Kenny Jarrett of Jarrett Rifles as well. Those are just the ones I have first hand experience with. I think KC makes the point very well Chuck Warner Pistolsmith / | |||
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It's just that we're tired of the inference that "nuke certified" is some sort of holy grail of welding...or anything else for that matter. Don't get me wrong, I'm not impugning your experience; I'm just saying that we who don't work in the "nuke" field don't see it as anything so special. John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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A welder is considered to be 'certified' when his test weldments have passed inspection and are signed off by the authorized inspector. The certs are good for a specific welding procedure ONLY and are good for a limited time period ONLY before re-testing is required. There are at least 50 different welding procedures, so you can imagine the difficulties. Most 'certified' welders are folks who have been certified in the past on a couple of these 50 different procedures but whose certs may have lapsed long ago. What you need is someone who does this sort of thing on a regular, maybe even a daily, basis and is also familiar with the specific requirements of YOUR specific job, both the welding and the heat treatment requirements. Very few professional welders are any good at heat treatment (they don't do it often enough) and very few professional gunsmiths are any good at welding (again, they don't do it often enough). It's pretty easy for the craftsman to polish that turd up nicely on the outside, but how about the inside? A skilled smith working with a skilled welder can do most any job quite well, but the COMMUNICATION between them is the key. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Joe Not to mention a company can send a WPS off to the AWS and have their process approved. And then that would be the WPS that the inspector tests applicants too. I'm going to de rail this thread for a second as there always seems to be a myth about being certified. To elaborate on what Joe said. a single certification means you were tested with on one process (i.e. Tig, Mig, SMAW, FCAW.) With a specific type of filler rod or electrod, In a specific position (i.e. 1-6G 1-4F), on a specific plate thickness, made from a specific material. There are a few exceptions that give you a bit of a blanket cert but not many. Example if you weld a 1" thick over head plate butt weld that gives you an unlimited cert for that welding process and that electrode. Pipe fitters union use the 6G as the standard by which all else is measured. 6G is a very difficult pipe welding position. Lets just put it this way, The pipe is set at a compound angle and you need to run at least three passes around the diameter maybe more depending on the wall thickness all with out moving the pipe. you have to weld flat, over head, uphill, down hill, all in one smooth movement. That's why pipe welder get paid so damn much. IT AIN'T EASY. And just to be clear I'd be lucky if a pipe welder fitter allowed me to carrie his tools for him. OK train is back on track Sorry for the Derail www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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You don't get out much do ya? FYI, there are plenty of gunsmiths who can REALLY weld and machine who have never stepped foot inside a nuclear plant, or been a pipefitter for that matter, or worked as a tool and die maker. I threw that tool and die maker comment in for those who think that only tool and die makers can machine. With regards to you, you sit up on that pedestal, looking down that nose, employing standards, and judging others, based on your experiences as a nuclear plant employee? You are too funny! _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I would hope that wasn't directed at me  My memory is not as good as it use to be but I don't remember inferring anything like that. But I've read comments form others that infer just that. That a Tool maker is gods gift to machining, Well have I got news for all the fellow tool makers out there... It ain't so..I have many a good friend that are not tool makers by trade yet can step into any shop in the US and hold there own against anyone or anything given the proper tools. Now the other thing is I've also seen many a person, On this board no less that could kick my ass in anything related to gun work. I'm here to learn and pass on what I know and make some friends Nothing else www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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The key is the phrase "we who don't work in the nuke field". Please consider the following, things that most folks don't know: Well over half the experienced professional shipyard and fab shop welders who tested at my nukie washed out on their FIRST DAY of the week's testing period. This is why most nuclear plants employ several full-time professional welding engineers, metallurgists and inspectors working in their weld test shops, to separate the wheat from the chaff and keep it separated. Most 'professional' welders have never even SEEN a properly-equipped weld test shop. Another nuclear-grade comparison, in a different but allied area, is the FACT that around half of the degreed Professional Engineers who enrol in our Senior Reactor Operator degree program end up washing out also. These are guys who have already gotten their BSc in some engineering discipline & maybe even a Master's and have passed the state board EIT and PE requirements, but who just aren't quite good enough for nuclear work. My group hired an engineer who was laid off after 20 years at the local shipyard, when it closed down. He lasted less than one year, he just wasn't good enough. I don't mean he washed out of the (voluntary) SRO program, he never got that far; I mean he was FIRED from his entry-level engineering position because, even after a successful 20-yr career in the 'real world', he just wasn't good enough to make the nuclear grade. Homer is funny but he doesn't represent most nuke workers. Please think about this: when a 'real-world' welder or engineer screws up, he can be fired and/or sued; when a nuclear worker screws up, he can go to federal prison. I've seen it with my own eyes. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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J.D., Under what federal statute or even circumstances can a welder go to federal prison for a "screw up". Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Which federal code provides for a jail sentence for a worker that makes a "mistake" at a nuclear facility? And last I checked nuclear-certified had Fuck All to do with gunsmithing. Now, maybe when S&W introduces Nuclear Powerplants in their products that will change. Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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Lol, seems Mike and I were thinking" along the same lines. Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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Let's just say, JD has "vision" issues. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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Let me put it another way so you may more easily understand what I'm saying: WE DON"T F___ING CARE AS IT HASN'T GOT A THING TO DO WITH GUNSMITHING! John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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The screw-up involved an improper sign-off on nuclear-stamped materials, actually an out-of-date welding cert if it matters. It's against federal law to attest to a lie when certifying nuclear materials or procedures, and they WILL put you in prison for it. There's a REASON why the government doesn't allow just anyone to work in the nuclear industry, how would you like it if your family lived close to a plant that didn't insist on the very best performance? Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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J.D., Sorry, but that has nothing to do with welding skill and performing a bad weld. That has to do with performing work for which you don't have the required government certificates or negligently performing safety inspection duties, or knowingly falsifying a government document. The same thing applies to at least a dozen fields if not more and there must be at least 1,000 government forms that at the bottom say "under penalty of perjury" or words to that affect. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I was attacked for my recommendations to the original poster; I merely responded to an objection about my using 'nuclear' as one of my recommendation for a welder option. I guess it depends upon a person's standards, and just exactly what levels of performance he's familiar with. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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GTAW MIL-STD-1595 Certified Qualified Aircraft, Missile and Aerospace Fusion Welding Proficiency  I've had this since 1987 an they never expire , unless FAA revokes it or you expire ! I sure didn't mean to open up the can of whuppazz on this post !. I have a friend who is well lets just say UNIQUE is putting it mildly . Tool Die Machinist CAD Mechanical Engineer . One afternoon I watched him take two soda cans ,butt too butt and heli-Arc them with an older Lincoln 250 unit . He initialized the arc on a piece of aluminum and driff'd it and began laying very tiny nickles . Hell I still can't do that , yet who's the one with the certification !!! | |||
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Well Doc that's cool to have. FYI though AWS certs do expire. As do API certs. AWS tries it's best to base it's standard on Mil Spec when available. But since welding covers such a broad range of application they will sight any authorities standard that show proven techniques in a given circumstance. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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So, is that lying or making a mistake? You initially said you would be jailed for making a mistake. In my book, there is a distinct difference between making a mistake and lying! Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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The post says 'can' and 'screws up', not 'would' and 'mistake'. The POINT is that an act that may entail no more than a firing and/or a civil penalty in the real world becomes a serious felony in the elevated-requirement atmosphere of the nuclear world. This same elevated-requirement atmosphere tranlates into all areas of the nuke industry and results in some of the best-paid and best-performing craftsmen in the country. This is why I suggested that the original poster investigate his Pipefitter's or Boilermaker's Local for a good TIG welder, it's at least SOME sort of assurance that he'll find a reasonably competent person instead of someone who only does it occasionally. Not saying that they're ALL as good as the best, but a few of them ARE the best. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Fed's don't really care either way. Just means a bigger sentence if you were found to be lying. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Again, where is this statute? Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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