I placed my query here in GUNSMITHING sub-form to avoid trite replies.

I am being badgered by She-Who-Must Be-Obeyed for us to obtain an anti-assault rifle. We live in at altitude with snow roughly a foot deep in our backyard — and it's snowing as I type. So I'm concerned about functionality in weather.

When I was in the army, we trained with elderly M-14s and transitioned to M-16s. I appreciated accuracy, reliability, and overall quality of manufacture of M-14s. M-16s were also quite accurate (300 yard targets maximum distance for all rifle training), but functioning was twitchy. I also instinctively disliked M-16's overall feel of fragility. And it seemed to have way too many parts.

Okay, you are aware I have prejudices. I mention them only to show I do not want just opinion based on another's prejudices.
*****
I have been informed that there are three forms of generating the semiautomatic rifle's operating impulse: direct impingement gas; short stroke gas; long stroke gas. Further information was M-1 Garand is long stroke gas; AK-47 series, SKS, and M-14 are short stroke gas; and AR-15/M-16 series are direct impingement gas operation. There are a bazillion combinations and variations among hundreds of makers. . . . And that's everything I know that I think is accurate.

As best you can, please identify what is important for selecting among the better mechanism choices for our one or two of these anti-assault rifles. If you can then identify anti-assault rifles that are among the better options for this mechanism, that will make my life less annoyed that it will be without your help.

Hard to tell what your actual question is, but get an M14 anyway. Of course not an M14, a commercial one. Bula and others make forged and milled ones. SA makes good ones too. You can reach across your snow covered valley and hit targets. Also get a bolt action in the same caliber, just in case.

I am not sure what an "anti-assault" rifle is. Maybe some sort of defensive weapon? I think we must first define what an Assault rifle is. Politicians have been trying to do that since 1994 with little luck. Of course they have an advantage, they get to change definitions of words to suit there needs, but we better stay out of that rabbit hole.

That being said, here are a few thoughts. The M1 does not like snow and extremely cold weather. Any M1A (AKA m-14) you get is not going to be half as accurate as a run of the mill Modern Sporting Rifle (AKA AR-15) and if it is, just wait a couple days, the bedding will go out, or the flash hider will crack, or one of a host of other issues and it will stop shooting. Like a buddy of mine used to say, if you are going to compete with a M-14, you need to have a good gunsmith on a retainer. And the MSR is going to be easier to shoot accurately, easier to scope, easier to find ammo for, and when properly built, more reliable than any other choice. They have come a long way in the last 30 years. And should you ever need to Anti-Assault anyone, the assaultee that you are anti-assaulting will likely be assaulting with a MSR.

Just me $.02

John

I certainly do like the M1A and the Garand, but I have to agree with gasgunner, the AR series has come a long way in the past 30yrs. Easier to shoot for most, easier to mount an optic. I believe the trick is, to buy quality made,,,, just as anything else. And, if you need or want more than the .223 Wylde, there's the AR-10. They all take maintaining to be reliable. My personal preference leans toward the A2 20" barreled rifle version with a free float tube, but to each his own.

I know I'm not answering the question but do have an alternative. Get yourself a 12 gauge pump shotgun with a short barrel and rifle sights. Stuff it full of buckshot or slugs and you'll be able to defend the kingdom against all manner of two-legged vermin. Also, shotguns are comparatively cheap, and a quality pump gun is very reliable. Not to bad mouth AR-15s, but every guy I see with one at the rifle range has issues with jams, etc. (Yes, I'll agree AR members' AR-15 function with 1000% reliability). There's a reason that during WWI the Germans accused the U.S. of war crimes for using riot shotguns in the trenches.

Cheers,

Roger

Let me see I have 3 M1A's 4 AR-15's 2 AKs a few mini-14s a M-1 Garand.

Had several foreign ones Valmet 76, HK 91 and 93
Berretta BM-59, IMI Galil, FNC, FAL. A AUG And most likely some I forgot about.

Not counting all the old Military bolt guns I have owned and played with.

I am torn between two rifles. That I well grab when going out the door.

Either a Mini-14 ranch or a 16in AR-15 both scoped. Both have proven them selves over the years. Both have grab bags at the ready.

I would not feel bad about having either one of them in my hands.

I love my shotguns but too limited of range to low of capacity and ammo to heavy.

I read that the OP did not want an AR-15. As for reliability of an M14, I have owned 6 of them all I built with GI parts, and zero issues. The broken parts spoken of, were definitely not original M14 parts.
Accuracy? So what if you get two Moa groups? You will be far better off in a combat situation with a 7.62mm; you will have to engage personnel with body armor, vehicles, obstacles, etc. And you won't have automatic weapons or indirect fire support, I an assuming. No heavy mechanized combined arms team, which is what I am accustomed to. Roger knows what that is although he is a cannon cocker.
I also read I think, that you will be in a static defensive position; so weight of weapons and ammo is not a concern.
So, based on your mission, as I understand it, do what I recommend. And a bolt action too.

Get 2 Colt 6920's.
I have one that I've put close to 10K rounds through and aside from normal maintenance (which includes parts replacement) it runs.

Put a LPVO on each of them. Nightforce NX8 1-8 is my choice.

Acquire or load something similar to Mk 262 5.56. That's a 77 gr. Sierra MatchKing at 2,700 fps.

Get a good sling and a supply of magazines.

There isn't much you can't do from hunting to defensive man stopping with that system.

If they made a short pistol AR308 I'd be interested. That being said it is hard to beat an AR308 (or 6.5 creed)

one other thing, you could always get a 243 or 338 Fed upper too, etc...

You civilians are way too focused on soft targets; if you are really concerned about being attacked by armed insurgents, better hope they stroll up your driveway in shorts and T shirts.
Sure the 5.56 is fine for unarmored targets.
When planning for an attack, plan for the worse case, not the optimum.

Never been an AR fan. Got 2 Garands, but they are heavy and have limited capacity. Don’t care for AK’s either, however, I do like the 7.62x39 round. Had 2 Mini-14’s, but always wanted a Mini-30, just haven’t found one at the right price.

I’m thinking the Mini-30 may be the ticket.

quote:

Originally posted by Naphtali:
I placed my query here in GUNSMITHING sub-form to avoid trite replies.

I am being badgered by She-Who-Must Be-Obeyed for us to obtain an anti-assault rifle. We live in at altitude with snow roughly a foot deep in our backyard — and it's snowing as I type. So I'm concerned about functionality in weather.

When I was in the army, we trained with elderly M-14s and transitioned to M-16s. I appreciated accuracy, reliability, and overall quality of manufacture of M-14s. M-16s were also quite accurate (300 yard targets maximum distance for all rifle training), but functioning was twitchy. I also instinctively disliked M-16's overall feel of fragility. And it seemed to have way too many parts.

Okay, you are aware I have prejudices. I mention them only to show I do not want just opinion based on another's prejudices.
*****
I have been informed that there are three forms of generating the semiautomatic rifle's operating impulse: direct impingement gas; short stroke gas; long stroke gas. Further information was M-1 Garand is long stroke gas; AK-47 series, SKS, and M-14 are short stroke gas; and AR-15/M-16 series are direct impingement gas operation. There are a bazillion combinations and variations among hundreds of makers. . . . And that's everything I know that I think is accurate.

As best you can, please identify what is important for selecting among the better mechanism choices for our one or two of these anti-assault rifles. If you can then identify anti-assault rifles that are among the better options for this mechanism, that will make my life less annoyed that it will be without your help.

I use AR-15's to -30F have had ZERO Issues your lucky you only have 1' on the ground I have 3+!
Have used AK's and SKS's in the cold also with out any issues. As to your question??? tha'ts all I could decipher??

I don't own one or have little interest in one. But, have to ask out of curiosity --- what are the best quality , most dependable semi auto AR style modern rifles on the market these days? There are tons of them out there. Sorry to the OP. Not trying to re-write anything. It's just that I'm quite certain that not all AR are created equal. Right people?
CB

ak-47 rugged and dependable, accuracy like throwing an anvil - softball sized groups are normal

ar15 - tight tolerances, need mtsc more, can shoot lights out with most barrel lengths. golfball sized groups or better are normal

m1-m1a - i LOVE the idea of these - most ar15 will far outshoot them, parts not so common and heavy, optics mounting is not superb

quote:

Originally posted by custombolt:
I don't own one or have little interest in one. But, have to ask out of curiosity --- what are the best quality , most dependable semi auto AR style modern rifles on the market these days? There are tons of them out there. Sorry to the OP. Not trying to re-write anything. It's just that I'm quite certain that not all AR are created equal. Right people?
CB

I am far anw away from handling and shooting every AR brand made these days. They are not my main interest. I was impressed with the accuracy of the Colts, both the 6920 and the HB Match Target. Rock River Arms have been very good, too, especially their CMP model.

Definition: Anti-assault rifle is a semiautomatic rifle or other quick reloading long arm whose purpose is to deter and/or defeat people whose demonstrable intention is to assault anyone and anything within your personal circle. If you need "circle" defined, please ignore this thread.
*****
We have a Model 97 trench gun without rear sight, 1.25 ounce slugs, 00 buck (15/cartridge, a special run from manufacturer). This is the extent of anti-assault devices. . . . Not counting English-style .72-caliber muzzleloading rifles if assaulted by cape buffalo.

While I personally did not appreciate the M-16s to which we transitioned, as was written, things have changed in the last 30 years. Accuracy is relative for our purpose — that is, the TYPES of mechanisms are all inherently accurate enough. Any purchased rifle will be adjusted to acceptable accuracy as needed. So the main things include reduced maintenance, especially in bad weather, plus parts and magazine availability and durability. I'm unsure of irrelevancies such as pride of ownership, but I suspect it might matter to me when it comes time to cut a check. I'm pretty sure prices have large variations within each group. I have no idea how much price and quality go together. I remember Ruger's 22 LR pistol being an incredible value for decades when compared with other brands and models — low price, excellent quality.

Judging by the firearms we own, telescopic, electronic, or other optical glass sights we prefer to avoid.

Nice but unnecessary is the rifle being satisfactory for whitetail deer and elk were it to be used during our season. Our using it is really reaching for something for it to do. Very unlikely.

I think I'll be quiet and learn.

Ok, you have defined your thread as "people". A big mistake, if you are truly in danger of being "assaulted" in your compound/circle.
If I was serious about conducting an assault against anyone, on their property, it would include harder targets than just "people".
Which is why the 7.62 is better; sure you can have both. I don't exclude the AR-15 variants because they are not reliable; they are. So get a couple of those too. Equip your fire teams with various weapons, and TRAIN them; don't just wait for the attack to come. Fire and maneuver. Defense in depth. Plan and rehearse your tactics, if you are actually serious. Once the enemy attacks, it is too late to decide what to do.
I see your list of weapons; totally inadequate if you are planning an active defense. For a last stand, inside the compound, maybe.
I recommend that, before buying any weapons, you do a detailed 5 paragraph operations order outlining the defensive mission you forsee to conduct on your property. Then equip for that.
Remember to consider at lesst 3 possible enemy COA, and have forces and equipment available to counter those.
Don't forget that the last two paragraphs are service and support, and command and control. I literally spent a career doing battle planning and taught it at Ft Leavenworth.
Up to you of course. Only you can evaluate the threat to your circle.
I think I just read that you want to avoid scopes? What???
I can see you have not really thought this through. If you are just wanting to stay in the bunker and hold a last stand, then just get a bigger lock and a cell phone.

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:
I use AR-15's to -30F have had ZERO Issues your lucky you only have 1' on the ground I have 3+!
Have used AK's and SKS's in the cold also with out any issues. As to your question??? tha'ts all I could decipher??

Wolves and coyotes only with the AR's. Have never had to hunt Humans. Have never owned one that's not at least an M.O.A. shooter, most are far better. I have tried them from Colt to the cheapest mix & match "mill spec" parts assembled at home, ALL have been moa or better. The BCG's like oil to run well (I use EWL 2000) tested to -30Fby me ZERO Issues! 1:9 to 1:7 twist & 55g Vmax over 26g varget (,223 / 5.56) YMMV

Again, post of reference is not hunting anything. If I read the OP's intent. And in a truly tactical situation, aimed shots at one target are very rare. Most battlefield casualties come from random flying pieces of metal. So, MOA; not really germane. I am assuming any force assaulting the OP's position is not going to just walk down his driveway in the open. Lots of stuff flying into known or suspected enemy positions, providing suppressive fire, is what matter. No enemy is just going to provide you a clear target. However, the OP should have one designated marksman with a scoped bolt action, in case they do.

I’d go with a HK91/CETME just to be different.

The .308 round is much more versatile in what it can protect against than the 5.56, although shootability is a bit more difficult with recoil.

The roller delay blowback action is very robust and reliable. Yes, it beats up brass a bit, and no, it’s not as point accurate as the AR style guns.

They are relatively affordable in their CETME form, although QC can be a bit variable. Get an HK, and it will work. But those are a bit dated and expensive.

The AK is highly reliable, but not that accurate and I’m not a big fan of the 7.62x39 round (opinions vary). The AK 74 is essentially an AK AR.

The AR is accurate, and reliable if you do maintenance. The .308 versions would be a high pick.

The M14 holds a soft spot for me, and looks like a military rifle should, but my experience isn’t that great. Finicky about ammo, needs as much or more maintenance as the M16 series, just in different places,
And could be tossed in with all the gas operated battle rifles- FAL, BM 54, etc.

The Garand is picky about ammo and hard to put alternate sights on. While less a maintenance hog than the M14, its lower magazine capacity and use of easily damaged en bloc clips make it not as effective in engaging multiple targets.

Y'all must live in some awful tough neighborhoods. You sound like Ukrainian partisans preparing to repel an organized Russian combined arms attack. I realize the Democrats are in power but things ain't that bad yet.

Hereabouts the miscreants most likely to assault a home are urban degenerates acting either singly or in a group of 2-3 thugs. The encounter with such maladroits will likely be at very close range, perhaps at the front door or a window or even inside the castle itself. Under these conditions and since we are not likely to fight a large, government sponsored aggressor, I reiterate my support for a 12 gauge pump gun with buckshot. Directed at a bad guy when the range can be measured in feet, a load of OO will not be found lacking. And as I mentioned before, a pump shotgun is about idiot proof and requires almost zero maintenance. Naphtali is on the right track with his Winchester M97 riot gun.

Unlike most "gunsmithing" discussions, this topic is subject to wild assumptions. As DPCD, who is smarter than I but not as good looking, stated, the military mind would first assess the threat and the enemy before deciding on a course of a action. In this case, I suggest the potential threat does not require B52s, M2 BMGs, and a host of small arms. The ideal weapon is one that be handled and fired accurately under duress. In addition to a shotgun, an AR15, M1911 or any modern pistol would suffice.

Hopefully, this is all theoretical discussion.

Cheers,
Roger

Rog; you are bursting my G3 planning mode; I am trying to organize a tank heavy task force for the guy. Four M1A2s (one platoon) and one Mech Infantry platoon should do it. Of course we don't need B52s; there are more suitable CAS assets available. One Paladin section from you would help round out the force.

Having a few laughs to myself on this one. I've handled and shot most of the semi AR's around and watched progress of a few friends who thought they would be just the ticket for hunting, mounted scopes for most of them including quite a few used on our helicopter 'gunships' doing meat hunting of red deer, tahr and chamois. The choppers often used semi auto shotguns with buckshot too if only culling these animals and not retaining them for meat. Also worked on net guns for the chopper boys, maybe these would be good for home invasion, you could retain and farm the assailants

Okay back to anti-assault weapons, not that I feel any need to stock up on AR's or shotguns for anti-assault purposes in the country I live in, but if I were I would go with the assault pump shotgun and an AK-47/SKS and a good handgun. You guys have come up against the AK and SKS in several well documented skirmishes and I don't think any of your enemies have been found wanting in terms small arms firefights.
The ex WW2 soldier I purchased my Webley VI British battle revolver off told me about a conversation he had with an old ex WW1 solder who fought in the trenches. The old vet told him that when on occasion the English and Germans accidentally broke through into each other trenches, the best and deadliest response was to back yourself into a corner with a big Webley revolver in each hand. He said that gave you 12 shots of big heavy bullets and usually 12 Germans on the deck if you had to shoot that many.
Well known incident about an Indian Ghurka in WW2 who while scouting ran into a German patrol, he shot 5 with his Webley revolver and got the 6th with his long curved bladed kukri knife. The Ghurka was the recipient of a Victoria Cross for bravery.

So I think if it comes down to urban, or rural, warfare it will come down to the man in the fight more so than the gun in the fight. The short reliable pump shot gun and AK/SKS assault rifle will be the easiest and most effective weapons to operate in close quarters and require very little training to use, even women and kids have used these weapons to support their menfolk in various skirmishes around the world.

Wow! Some over-the-top assumptions. LA riots in the 1960s, BLM mostly peaceful protests, myriad home invasions did not require massive air support to stiffen defense against assault. The point being, get a handle on reality. At least in our case, we neither intend to go to war nor are we concerned about a Teutonic, Asiatic, or other attacking horde.

I have not identified a single firearm, truck, or any other mechanical device for which reasonable person would not require a human being to operate — on the spot or remotely. So identifying people as our point of defensive interest is reasonable and accurate. A "hard target" becomes a pick-up truck that sits and rusts out in the absence of a malefactor using it.

And our army consists of between two and a dozen as it would for a great many of responders.

Having typed this, I have obtained substantial information that has clarified wants, needs, and what to avoid.

I anticipate that all of you have had at least a few chuckles during this thread.

Again, I thank each of you for responding.

The first thing you have to do is to have her define what an "assault rifle" is. Not give examples like it is an AR15, AK47, etc., but the actual definition of what one is. Unless you know that, you will not be able to acquire an "anti assault rifle".

Germans on effectiveness of shotguns
https://youtube.com/shorts/U7ogv68oFwc?feature=share

My go to is a FNFAL

monster

https://youtu.be/lrDwfbxqkJQ

If you do buy an AR-15, wrt which mechanism to buy, I think direct impingement is the most reliable and flexible (reliable across bullet weights and projectile speeds) and the piston systems are cleaner. I think the direct impingement systems are the way to go, but maybe John (gasgunner) would comment again on this.

Naphtali:
One semi-auto rifle may not be enough to protect you and your's if your home is a larger one. A semi auto .45 in most rooms maybe? Rem. 1911R's are dependable.

no one ever suggest one of the new chipmonk assault rifles
maybe its just a terriorst thing

quote:

Originally posted by richj:
monster

https://youtu.be/lrDwfbxqkJQ

The FN/FAL rules!