A few years ago I purchased a 1917 eddystone Enfield 30-06, that was somewhat sporterized, at a local gun show. I am looking at giving the old rifle a whole new look and function since the action was already cut on. My objective is to make a big bore, large game rifle.
Most everything is planned out for the new project except what cartridge to use. Being a custom gun and liking the Dakota balistics a Dakota .416 was one of my first choices. Yet, 375 H&H was also suggested. Anyone else suggest something plz that has experience in big game. I am looking for a headache gun to tangle with anything in North america and Possibly even bigger game elsewhere. I do reload and the price-per-cartidge does not come in my factoring of what cartridge to use.

One area that im unsure of with this project is if the butchy Enfield action can take the high pressures of the Large magnum cartridges. The ears on top of the action will be taken off and the magazine has been cut and rewelded strait(no more pot belly.) The action will also receive a new high quality all steel barrel from either Shilen or Douglas. It seems that the bolt face and magazine sides will need to both be opened up to accomadate the larger magnum case size.
The stock will be a custom fit stock done by myself useing whatever is the new fad for the tight fitting of the action to the wood-stock. By using these methods will I need to have a reinforcement bolt through the stock like most other magnums have?

I have experience with building rifles out of vintage mausers of different nations. All these were non magnum though and of course mausers not enfields. Im kinda in the dark on this project. Safety is of the factor and dont want to build a rifle that only destroys itself in the end, due to structure problems.
Plz give an exploring gunsmith some info on said Enfield project. Any suggestion of any kind would be taken into factor.

I have no experience with magnums but do know that a common mod for the M1917 was simply opening up the chamber to .308 Norma Magnum. It's a big, horsey action that will take almost anything that will fit. Back in the 80's (I think) Century Arms in VT offered converted P14s (metal & designwise identical to the M1917) in 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Win Mag. I dunno if I just told you something you already knew!

Bud W

An Enfield can take any pressure that you throw at it. They have been tested to hold together at 120000 psi.

If you want a 378 or 460 wby, an Enfield can handle it. Or a .505 Gibbs. But for the Gibbs you will have to get a 1914 Enfield bolt because the left leg protrudes forward to catch against that large rim.

The Eddystone actions had some problems with the heat treatment. Some of them are brittle and have let go with 30-06 factory ammo. I'm not sure of the years or serial #s involved. I didn't know this until I built a 30-378 on an Eddystone. I sent it off to 500 Below for cryo treatment. (the whole barreled action with everything stripped) I wrapped it in a blanket and pulled the trigger with a string to test fire it with a hot load and it held.
It would be worth looking into which ones were effected before you sink some cash into it.

458 LOTT

Personally, I wouldn't use an Eddystone for anything larger than a 30-06 case.

As to the post by 500 Grains.....while I agree that the winchester and Remington made Enfields are enormously strong they should not be construed as to be used for pressures greater than the brass cartridge cases can tolerate.

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
458 LOTT

I'm with Hog killer.....the .458 Lott is as large as I'd go here

There would be no flies on a 20" barreled .458 Win. roger

SwampMonkey-

There is a lot of good advice here from the likes of Vapodog and Lar45. I would certainly heed their recommendations.

Here's a couple of extra tid-bits. First, be real careful in having the barrel removed. Eddystone's reputation for being brittle are almost more of a function of how the Eddystone armory tighted the barrels on the actions as the actions themselves. In short they overtightened the barrels creating cracks in the front receiver ring. As such a good number of smiths will cut relief cuts in the old barrels to remove the old barrels. This is a precautionary measure.

Second tip is to have your receiver magna-fluxed. That will determine if the receiver has any cracks. You can have this done at a local machine shop and costs $10-$20 bucks and is cheap insurance.

If no cracks, I don't know that I would have much hesitation.

I am in the early stages of doing a .338 Winchester Mag on an Eddystone; which is probably pretty wimpy by Enfield standards.

Good luck!!!

I pretty much agree with 30Cal... the story about the Eddystone heat treating has been often told but never substantiated; the rebarreling problem does appear to be valid and applies to some Remingtons as well. If your barrel is original (5 groove, left hand twist) it's a good one. All M1917s were 3½% Nickel steel, same as the very late model Springfields from Rock Island Arsenal.

Bud W

im having 1 made in .416 taylor....tip burns in canyon lake tx is doing it....shilen barrel...

2 500 jeffe's and 550 flanged on eddystones...
going to do a 500 AR.

basically, any case with a .590 rim diamter can be done easily, which means
550 magnum
550 express
500 jeffe
500 a2
510 wells
500 AR
470 Mbogo
anything based off the 460 weatherby case
416 or 450 rigby
416rem/458lott/470 capstick
any of the RUM rounds and cats
404 jeffe

it is a serious action, and if you are not going to do the work yourself it becomes radically expensive.

Jim Wisener has an excellent article on doing either the 416 rigby or 505 gibbs on an enfield, which most of us have read

jeffe

I believe a Enfield is wasted on anything less than a 505 or 500 Jefferys.

Thx guys for all the helpful advise. Im definately going to get the action checked for cracks. Im going to do all the metal work except for the barrel work and the boltface opening. Im still loving the rimless .416 dakota which is based on the .404 jeffery case. I want to go larger possibly but my father wants to use the rifle also and I dont think he will find it very enjoyable if the round gets too big.

SM, go with the Lott and down load it for your dad. There are alot more bullets to chose from and some are very resonably priced. Like the Rem. 405gr 45-70 bullet. Which shoot great and will hammer big pigs. I load them to 2100fps, great practice ammo too. If needed you can duplicate mild 45-70 gov't loads.

Brass and dies are less costly also, than the Dakota stuff.

Keith

I will definately look into the .458 lott. Im not familiar with it but ill look at the balistic info on it and see what the light loads look like and the heavy loads also. Im on vacation atm so my research ability is not happening atm. Once I get back home tomorrow ill get back to my reloading manuals and check out the big boys and especially the .458 lott. I also would like to know about suggested optics. I have never used a magnum rifle in the field. Would a nice peep sight be more accomadating for the magnum or a scope be more. I enjoy both styles of sights. Yet the scope could be a bit dangerous to begin with. Hope you know what im talking about. Noone enjoys the half moon tatoo above the right eye Would the .458 winchester be a contender with lott? Also the barrel length...would there a differece in accuracy for the magnums with a 20" compared to a 22" or a 24"?

SM, Here is a picture of my 458 Lott, on a Rem. Model 30S. With a Lyman 48 reciever sight(ghostring)(w/o screw in apature). 24" barrel.




To scope a rifle in this classs is a personal choice. If you do scope one, get a scope with a LONG eye relief.

You state that you have not fired "magnum" rifles before, so start out with reduced loads first and work your way up to the full house loads. These rifles take training to learn how to absorb the recoil properly. DO NOT RUSH TO THE HEAVY LOADS TOO QUICKLY. Start out with some 300gr loads @ 2000fps and work your way up.

As to the difference between the 458 Winne and the Lott. The mag box does not need to be leghtened for the Winne. The Lott will get you to 2300 fpr with 500gr, the Winne tops out around 2100 fps with 500gr.

Look at a finished rifle weight of 9 3/4 - 10 1/2 pounds.

Keith

Brownells has a nice finger recoil pad. It's a stretchy leather padded ring. I put it around my middle finger middle knuckle. That finger gets hammered everytime I shoot my 470. The finger recoil pad makes things much more pleasant.
don't forget about cast bullets for cheap practice ammo. I cast a 500gn flat point gas check and load to around 2100 in the 470. They shoot to the same point as a Barnes XLC and are much cheaper.

I believe the Eddystone problems was with Heat embrittlement. The forge operators cranked the heat up on the billets, so they could just hammer them out in the finish blocks instead of takeing the time to heat to a lower temp and go through each forgeing stage.
When steel is kept at a high temp for extended periods, it becomes brittle.(I don't know the temps and times, just what I leared in engineering school).
I have picked up complete actions for around $100. I don't know that just checking for cracks would be enough. Is there a reference someplace with what serial number ranges were prone to problems?
How much does it cost to get an action re heat treated? Any websites of places?
A local smith showed me a book by PO Ackley with notes on the Eddystone and that a few had let go with 30-06 factory ammo.
I am by no means an expert on this. Just passing on what I've heard and read.
when I did my 30-378, I sent the barreled action off to 500 below for cryo treatment. It is supposed to increase the tempered martensite and help spherodize the grain sturucture. Which will increase ductility and toughness.

I guess that's more than 2 cents worth.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I believe a Enfield is wasted on anything less than a 505 or 500 Jefferys.

Perhaps, but there is a dire shortage of gunsmiths who can do the conversion and make the rifle feed 100%. A seminar on how to do it from a recognized expert would inure to the benefit of all mankind.

If it will work through the action, my choice would be the .416 Rigby. It operates at lower pressures than those others, and I don't trust Eddystone-made Enfields.

quote:

Originally posted by Lar45:
The Eddystone actions had some problems with the heat treatment. Some of them are brittle and have let go with 30-06 factory ammo. I'm not sure of the years or serial #s involved. I didn't know this until I built a 30-378 on an Eddystone. I sent it off to 500 Below for cryo treatment. (the whole barreled action with everything stripped) I wrapped it in a blanket and pulled the trigger with a string to test fire it with a hot load and it held.
It would be worth looking into which ones were effected before you sink some cash into it.

It seems that some Eddystones developed cracked receiver rings, which was the major problem with them. In retrospect, such cracks may have been caused by ham-handed removal of too-tightly cinched-up barrels, at which time the rings cracked.

The best way to remove P-14 and 1917 Enfield barrels w/o risking a receiver ring crack is to cut the barrel off in front of the receiver ring, then use a hacksaw to cut two slots 180 degrees apart through the chamber wall to the beginning of the barrel threads inside the receiver ring. Then the barrel stub can be easily removed. This is preferable to trying to unscrew the barrel using a barrel vise and action wrench.....

I like that method of barrel removal el deguello. Doesnt seem much harder and will be safer.

or.

chuck the barrel in a lathe... get it running fairly true

take a cut-off tool (or any other SMALL square tool)

bring it RIGHT to the edge of the receiver, but not hitting it

cut the barrel about .125 deep, perhaps a bit more


should screw right out

I agree with Ray, due to the expense involved in sporterizing and Enfield, and given the fact it is a very large action, I can't see using any case smaller than the 416 Rigby, or large Wetherby case, ie the belted 416.

Options would be 416 Rigby based:
416 Rigby, 450 Rigby and 470 Mbogo
Big W 416, 460, 500 A-square, 550 Magnum
500 Jeffrey, 505 Gibbs
585 AHR, 600 Overkill.

I've had both a 458 lott and 500 Jeffrey on an enfield action.

While I'm a big fan of the Lott, I've had two, putting it in an Enfield is akin to putting a small block engine in a 1 ton truck. It can be done, but really doesn't make a lotta sense.

I ran across a couple of Enfield actions last weekend and bought them, mostly out of curiosity. One is a p14 I assume, because the bolt head is a little different, it's more round on the front of the left locking lug and has a little more steel in that area.
Markings on the 14? are few, there is a serial #
starting with a W and 54k number range, other markings are a MC5 and a very faint O.P. or D.P. on the front ring.

The other action which I assume is the p17 has a angle like a 70 Winchester on the front of its' LH bolt locking lug. its' serial # is in the 127K range it's stamped RE inside of an oval shaped kind of logo and a faint D.P. or O.P. as well there's a crown and the number 31 and the letter A. There's also The letters GR and a little crown on it.

Just a guess here, I assume the 14? with the w prefix in its' serial number is maybe a Winchester?

Just another guess here, I assume the 17? with the RE in the oval logo could maybe be a Remington?

Any help with indentification of these two old war horses would be appreciated. I'm tossing around the idea of a new and more interesting life mission for these old dudes, like possibly a 450 Rigby and a 300 H&H. Kind of a Plains game DGR duo.
Is the heat treat on these what one would want.
Timan
SS

The easiest way to identify a P14 from a P17 is by the charger clip openning. Quite often the bolts are interchanged so that's not guaranteed proof of model. Post a pic of each receiver or email me(rgg_7@hotmail.com) a picture of each ( top View) and I'll identify them for you.

The frist one by your description is "W" for Winchester and the 2nd "RE" is Remington. Check to see if the bolt number matches the receiver serial number.

Like to know your plans for bottom metal or any other parts you plan to change. These are very rugged, dependable rifles in any calibre.

Timan/Stuart-

Here's the easiest way to tell a P-14 from a M-1917.

A M-1917 will have "U.S. Model of 1917" on the front receiver ring. If it doesn't, it's a P-14. Found this information over on the Enfield forum.

I will post some pictures of my M-1917 in .300 H&H.

Assuming they have not swapped bolts and the P-14's have their original bolts then you would have the differences in the extractor. The M-1917 extractor has one that looks like that of a Model 70 or Mauser. The P-14 extractor's hook is smaller most likely because of the rimmed .303 round.

The numbers on the bolts match the numbers on the recievers. Neither action says m-1917.
As far as what to do to them.
There's a oval hole in the top of the rear bridge that I would like to make accept a slider that captures the foot of a scope ring, or a different approach of having a ring foot protrudes into that space and is captured by a eccentric cam actuated by a lever, front ring would be left clean, no holes or base and go with a claw in front. that sits over the chamber
Make a peep that fits the oval for when the scope is removed.
Most definately make bottom metal, the ones that are on them just do nothing for me but make want better ones.
Look into making m-70 style trigger systems for both.
I think a bolt handle with just a 10 degress sweep back would be good.
timan

Timan, I bought a number of these back in the nineties. The D.P. is for drill/parade and they were sold for actions only as I remember, the barrels were demilled/plugged. I seem to remember the stocks having a red and white painted stripe on them for further I.D. as a non-shooter. Lee.

Couple of further comments. There's been much said and written about the Enfield

1. "DP" means "Drill Purpose". The rifle was culled out of service for drill instructions as it was not to field standards...generally worn barrel, headspace, corrosion on bolt face, stock damage, etc. Action could be OK however check for visual damage, pitting or mag particle for cracking.

2. Generally, "US Model of 1917" appeared on Eddystone Model 1917's. Remington and Winchester just bore marking and serial number.

3. The depression on the rear of the reciever served two purposes. Control distoration from from heat treatment..both Winchester and Remington have these depression, often referred to as "Duck Ponds" Lastly the depression reduced the receiver weight.

4. Both these action whether 14 or 17's are good to go as far as heat treating.

5. The rear bridge leans itself to some interesting configuration. Both Burgess and Wisner have done some interesting work.

6. Whether 14 or 17's your rails will have to be reworked for the big bore cartridges.

If you are making bottom metal for these I have some ideas and am looking for 2 sets....keep me in mind,

Cheers, Ron

M 17's don't have matching numbers on the bolt and other parts, they only carry the manufacturer's code, W, R, or E.

if your bolt is numbered, it's a P 14.



the "ERA" on the receiver shows this P14 to be an Eddystone.


question to all:
do the two bolts, 14 and 17, interchange correctly between the 14 and 17 receivers?


and Hog Killer-

that's a good looking Model 30 up there.

does the 30 cock on closing or opening?

thanks.

Timan/Stuart-

Now I know how Darth Sideous felt when he brought Anakin Skywalker, a/k/a, Darth Vader to the "Dark Side" of the force. Stuart, you are now a member of the Dark Side, whoooooahhhhhh!!!!! Sorry for being so silly but, I couldn't resist. Seriously, I have often thought that the "Duck Pond" could be used to accept a rear base or the rear receiver ring could be milled to accept a dove tailed base or something of the like instead of filling in the Duck Pond. But, you got the idea, us Enfield freaks need bottom metal, triggers as you have described and most of all, another source for a three position Model 70 style safeties.

rgg_7-

I don't know that I necessarily agree with your statement #2. I have seen a number of Remington and Winchester M-1917's which bore the name of the manufacturer, i.e. Winchester, Remington or Eddystone along with the designation U.S. Model of 1917. The first M-1917 that I fell in love with was one in the President George H.W. Bush, World War II, Museum of the Pacific Theater in Fredricksburg, Texas. There is a great example of a Winchester M-1917 there in the display case. It clearly was stamped Winchester U.S. Model of 1917, FWIW. I am sure there are exceptions to every rule.

the one sitting on my lap is marked: US
MODEL OF 1917
REMINGTON
306XXX
I got it from FLA3006 for a mere pittance, and found a Bell&Carlson stock with the extended magazine belly at the gun show for $50.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

the one sitting on my lap is marked: US
MODEL OF 1917
REMINGTON

mine, too.

mine says W, for the 500 AR...
and the last 500 jeffe i made (mine) says remington

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:
Hog Killer-

that's a good looking Model 30 up there.

does the 30 cock on closing or opening?

thanks.

tc, mine cocks on opening. The very early ones cocked on closing ala M1917's

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by 30 Caliber Mag Fan:
..us Enfield freaks need ... another source for a three position Model 70 style safeties.

Shame on you Mark, the enfields already come with a great safety, as is. It is big, positive, and works well with a scope. A Mod. 70 style safty on a mauser, you bet, they need somethng better than Herr Mauser's idea.

Keith

quote:

mine says W, for the 500 AR

is it a 14 or 17?

The 1917 Enfields all say the name of the manufacturer on the receiver ring, Remington, Winchester, or Eddystone. It also says Model of 1917. The P14 are marked differently. They do not say Model of 19##. Remingtons are marked with an "RE" in an oval on top of the receiver ring. Winchesters have a "W" as the first diget of the serial number. Eddystones have "ERA" stamped just above the serial number.

The left lug on the bolt of a P14 has a more rounded leading edge as compared to the sloping forward edge of a 1917 bolt. The left lug on a M1917 is just like those on M70 Winchester CRF except it is split. A P14 bolt will not work in cone breech without modification. Also the firing pin on a P14 is also smaller in diameter than the ones in M1917s

Hart

TC,
it's a 17, for the 500 AR, as it's "just" a rigby casehead'

Mark, I did the lapour safety, and took it off, ask the original safety is, in MY opinion, superior to most out there...

Now, Keith, there's not a THING wrong with the mauser safety, if you don't change the parameters of iron sights... when going from slung right to shoulder, it comes off just as easily and naturally as just about anything else... and you can just about count on the flag blocking your view, the instant you look at the target should you forget, saving seconds

jeffe