I am very interested in how a person can get correctly fitted for a stock.... particularly for big bore calibers. I know this was common practice on best quality British rifles of the past and particularly on shotguns.

Understanding that there are a great deal of variables such as scope, irons, DGR etc.

How do you establish - cast off, toe out, pitch, length of pull, grip diameter & radius, forearm shape & length, comb height...? There must(?) be some general rules of thumb as well as specific techniques to fit all the many body types & builds out there....

Not to big of a question huh? whew....

I am very keen to learn as much as I can on this subject.

Take Care,
Dave

I can't wait to see the answers on this. From people I've spoken to/communicated with it seems that even a lot of the custom stock makers don't do too much measuring any more. I think there are some general numbers they must use as most stocks are kind of a one for all other than LOP.

I'm excited to watch this thread, thanks for starting it.

I saw a fitting stock at an ACGG show, it had all kinds of bolts and pieces and the stock maker could adjust for a person, have them shoulder it, adjust etc. in the end he'd have the measurements I guess. I was at a show once, can't remember which, and there was somebody that would do stock fitting, I didn't have time to go by but seemed like they'd check you out and tell you what all your stock dimensions should be.

Red

Stocking a shot gun is different from stocking either a double rifle or a bolt action rifle.

With a shot gun that, of course, has no rearsight, the idea is to use the stock dimensions to align the eye with the front bead in the same vertical and horizontal plane.

Such as that where the eye looks the shot gun barrel will be in perfect alignment to put 60% of the pattern above and 40% of the pattern below that spot.

With a double rifle the idea is to put the centre of the group where the eye looks. In other words of any group 50% above and 50% below.

For that reason a double rifle stock will be usually, maybe, shorter and with more drop (the stock more "bent down").

On a bolt action rifle the fit isn't really that important save to make sure that there is no "gap" between the butt and the shoulder.

First to ensure that the bolt can be worked without hitting the firer in the face and second so that the butt and shoulder form a solid "weld" which lessens the punishment from recoil.

You then have the complications of a 'scope sight or iron sights to consider.

Fit is also influenced by the fitters own prejudice on shooting stance.

So a typical Churchill XXV would have maybe more "cast" (the stock bent to one side) than a Holland which would usually have less "cast" or even a hollowed out stock.

Here's how I was always taugt to measure.
Bend your arm at a 90 degree angle. Curve your finger as you would rest in on the trigger. Measure from the pit of the elb, to the middle of your first joint. This is the proper stock length for a bolt action rifle.

sniper.. that's a way of finding the maximum length usable for a person .. but not fitting.

cast, drop,cant, LOP, and a zillion other things (big hands, long fingers.. short fingers, small hands, upper torso build, cheek, shooting style) all go into it ...

quote:

cast, drop, cant, LOP, and a zillion other things (big hands, long fingers.. short fingers, small hands, upper torso build, cheek, shooting style) all go into it ...

I know....I know...!!!

I left a lot out of my initial post in hopes that it would not seem to overwhelming.

Shooting style is another aspect that I believe the Brits 'fitted' for. If I have it right there would be a try gun with adjustable features and you would do some shooting with a representative of the gunmaker to fine tune your "measurements" with your "style".

Pretty damn neat if you ask me!

Best,
Dave

Go to Searcy's web site and visit the order form and "Fit-Up Dimensions".
http://www.searcyent.com/new_order_form.htm

Hello all,

In response to the stock measurements I have a couple of comments. Find a rifle which fits you with no forcing yourself to the stock and take necessary measurements from that stock. Keep in mind center of scope above bore or iron sight alignment above bore. Keep the scope/sight above bore measurements. They are as critical as the others. Neeldless to say, there is no perfect stock fit. Change jackets while shooting and my comment will become apparent. I met Al Lind a couple of summers ago. He pantographed a blank for me and graciously allowed me to photograph him while working. After the dust cleared, he showed me a couple of stocks in for adjustment. I was intrigued by a bolt rifle stock's grip. I could not get my hand around the grip. Al explained the grip, which was huge. It was for a New Orleans Saints defensive lineman who had suffered a hand injury via clete and could not close his hand. Al solved the problem with panache. Measuring oneself for a stock is worthwhile. but remember the jacket. Good hunting.

Snowwolfe,

Thanks for the link it is much appreciated!

My question is once you have all the necessary measuremnts how do you use them to build a
proper fitting stock......?

I really would like to know how to go from the raw numbers to wood!

Best,
Dave

there is a sticky at the top of the gunsmithing forum, I think that it's called stockmaker show and tell by LesBrooks. on there there are some pictures showing his layout lines with notes on them and such. I believe I have seen similar drawings in Stockmaking book. maybe others have more pictures.

when working from a pattern I think they bend, add and subtract as necessary, since the majority of it has been cut already.

Red

quote:

I was at a show once, can't remember which, and there was somebody that would do stock fitting, I didn't have time to go by but seemed like they'd check you out and tell you what all your stock dimensions should be.

At the last ACGG show in Reno James Tucker was offering custom stock fitting for a fee. I forgot how much it was. James Tucker is a stockmaker extraordinare.

An easy way to do it is to Buy a Holland & Holland double rifle of a SXS shotgun.
Back in the day they use to fly you to the New York office for proper fitting. then build your arm and ship it back to NY to be double checked and adjusted if needed then you were off an running.

I don't think they front plane tickets anymore but you never know on a $100K plus arm. a plane ticket would still be a drop in the bucket compared to full retail.

If you ever holiday in England you can be fitted by Holland's at their Northolt Shooting Ground.

I was fitted there twice - both times by Ken Davies - once the "young" side of 40 years old and the second time the "older and fatter" side of 40 years old.

Apart from the "cast" little had changed. Holland's will give you two sets of measurements if you ask. One for their style of stocking with a "hollow" cheek contact or a standard one for a "straight" cheek contact.

Any competent British stocker can then either make a new stock or alter the existing one on your gun. But be aware that some guns with a through bolt through the stock can't be modified.

could somebody please explain hollow cheek versus straight cheek for me?

what does holland charge for fitting, or they only do if you're buying from them?

getting fitted is really easy - just go up to kobes place, insult him sufficiently and he will promptly fit a stock right up your ---

Holland's will fit for anybody. Not just those buying a Holland gun. I think that the charge is something about UK £100? But call them and they will tell you.

The "hollow" and "straight" cheek can be explained thus.

A "straight" cheek is like the rudder on a boat. It is angled to the left (or the right) but nevertheless it is a straight line from where it is attached to the boat to the edge of the rudder.

A "hollow" cheek is where that line is not straight but a slight scoop is made so that the stock from above looks like a cricket bat.

Now as that probably doesn't mean a lot no non-Brits or non-Commonwealth types I explain that a cricket bar has a slight concave curve to the front face like a very shallow curved banana.

The advantage of the "hollow" is it is more comfortable and is a true fit, it is said, rather than a compromise like the "straight" cheek.

The disadvantage is that the stock cannot then be further adjusted (by bending with hot oil and a hot lamp) as the user gets older and the "cast" changes. Or to suit a subsequent user of the gun.

So a "straight" cheek is probably the wiser choice. I've had a gun stocked with a "hollow" cheek and in fact regret doing it now as when I did get older and my fitting changed the stock was, effectively, scrap.

Holland's will give you a paper with all the measurements on and any COMPETENT stocker will be able to work from that.

Also always make sure to wear Clean Underwear during the fitting!!!

All warnings regarding kobe are duely noted.


enfieldspares,

Thanks for the descriptions. Learned something new there.

From your first post it is interesting to hear that the fitting of a bolt rifle was less important when compared to a shotgun or double rifle. I have heard something like that as well. I was talking to a rifle builder (and have heard the same from others)and asked him about having a stocked fitted to me. He warned
against it saying that if you fit the stock 'to well' (don't ask me to define what to well is...) it may feel great in the hands....until you pull the trigger. Basically, if it fits to snuggly(?) the effects of recoil can be greatly increased especially on DGR calibers. Therefore some sort of compromise needs to be reached in the stocks dimensions.....fit, balance, handling, recoil reduction etc... It's all a trade off. This is why many builders have patterns for different rifle calibers. They make a pattern(s) covering all the points they deam necessary and then modifly it on a percustomer basis.

Naturally, that's not the end of it. The other school of thought told to me by some different rifle builders is that the stock MUST fit you and be built to your specifications & features. This I was told is necessary for the proper handling of the rifle. Proper handling being: the balance, rise, mount to shoulder, swing, and handiness needed to snap a rifle to your shoulder and get off a shot instantly and often without really lining up the sights or cross hairs. In other words....the sight picture should be RIGHT THERE as soon as the rifle comes up. Another point in this argument that was totally new to me was that the stock has to fit you for daily carry as well. You shouldn't hate the rifle and have to constantly adjust it in your hands & arms while you are carrying it. If you cannot carry the rifle comfortable you will get fatigued over long days of hunting. This also was explained to me as part of 'fitting' a stock to the individual. Tom Burgess told me several times that if you get a rifle truely built for you that fits you the way it should you may not take anything else with you when you die but you sure has hell won't be leaving without that rifle!

I really hope we get more responses to this thread. I have been trying to decode this rosetta stone like a mystery for a long while and still can't say I really know a damn thing!

Best Regards,
Dave

I borrowed this as I feel it's accurate .


Stockmakers, especially those fitting shotgun stocks have "try" stocks that are adjustable for all sorts of things including length of pull, cast-off, comb height, drop, etc.

Length of pull is that distance from trigger to end of stock butt. Most generally, rifle and shotgun stocks are provided with 13 3/4" from the factory, as this is felt to be the average length of the average adult male's requirement for comfortable grasp of the firearm and for trigger manipulation.

This probably works for 80% of the shooting adult male population. Youths, women and the other 20% of the male population require something else - more or less (pun intended!). This is where a custom stock maker can tailor a stock specifically for your personal fit. A non-fitting stock is uncomfortable, ungainly, and can knock your socks off with recoil of heavy caliber firearms. One of the most common mis-fits is the height of comb. If a firearm comes with iron sights, the stock height is normally regulated for a good stock weld (firm cheek contact with stock) while sighting with the provided sights. Mount a scope will alter the sight level causing the stock weld to become less firm. Put high or X-high rings on to compensate for large belled scopes of high magnification and the weld becomes nonexistant. This causes poor sighting and erratic grouping - a fault of neither the rifle or scope - just poor sight alignment.

An overly long or a too short length of pull causes poor trigger control and difficulty in properly mounting the firearm to the shoulder quickly - very important to shotgunners, especially!
Keep below the ridgeline!

ON MY Shotguns ; My stocks need 0.75-1" additional LOP over standard .Or same as my Rifles !.

As most of my Rifles measuring straight from the trigger too the center of my butt stock pads ( Curvature

portion ) are 14.5"-14.75" I'm XXL 6'4" 240lb an my arm fully extended with trigger finger curled measures

24" too my shoulders rifle mounting . Although when I have blood drawn the nurse always asked me to

straighten out my arm and I reply that it is straight out . It might be from years of weight lifting

and 19" biceps which prevents that, an my forearms resemble Popeye's .

FYI In the Army it was my nickname . Chest is 48 " .

Hope that helps ?. I wanted to call Jim and ask him of the correct formula as he was ( Now Retired )

A custom stock maker for better than 40 years , wasn't home !. He made several of my stocks which most

definitely improved scores in shooting , not to mention turned ordinary Rifles into near works of art !.

BOL ...

quote:

Most generally, rifle and shotgun stocks are provided with 13 3/4" from the factory, as this is felt to be the average length of the average adult male's requirement for comfortable grasp of the firearm and for trigger manipulation.

Gosh! Not in Britain! Standard LOP would be about 14 1/2".

Why? Because we shoot with a fairly straight, erect, head.

In US I believe you shoot with the head bent and down on the stock?

Also of course in Britain that LOP is measured to a front trigger (of two in the guard) rather than to a single trigger.

The trick with fit is to have the top of the comb lower at the front than at the rear. So that when the gun recoils the cheek isn't being hit by the top of the comb.

To complicate matters was Mr Greener with his "rational stock" which looks like the German "hog back" somewhat.

It is said that, fugly as it looks, it is the best of all styles. But looks horrible!

The British Army, of course, even went to the lengths of having FOUR stock lengths on the SMLE and THREE on the No4.

I can recall the discomfort of shooting ball ammunition through a No4 with a short stock when my usual long stock wasn't available to me! Ouch!

I was hoping we would get some great responses from the gunbuilders we have here on AR.

While I was not expecting to learn any rock solid formulas or the like I figured there would be some decent guidelines for 'getting it right' when being fitted.

In any case for those that either build or modify your own stocks...how do you go about the process? I am doing something like this at the moment using Duane Wiebe, Ralf Martini, D'Arcy Echols and few others stocks a guidelines. Knowning what the stock was built for and looking at them from as many angles as possible then I sort of 'reverse engineer' it. So far so good.

Since I can't find much in the way of rules to follow I am going by what 'feels right'. Shave off here, sand there, some bondo, reshape etc.... Once I get a bit more done I will shoot the rifle and see what that tells me.

Enfieldspares,

I have never heard that H&H would fit one for a stock. I would love to watch them go throught the entire process of fitting a rifle for a customer.

Best Regards,
Dave

I don't want to let this one go just yet...

Anyone else want to chime in and reveal their ideas, formulas or techniques for getting it right?
I know it is one hell of a big question but I feel it is well worth exploring.

I'd love to hear how the British firms went about fitting their guns on a per customer basis. Other than a trip to H&H for a fitting is there any books that do a thorough job explaining this subject?

To interesting a topic to let it die just yet.....

Best Regards,
Dave

davidc,

you could always make an appointment and go over to NECG. they build stocks and i'm sure could give you some insight as to how it's done or better, do a fitting.

best of luck,

jeff

jsl3170,

Not a bad idea. Have you worked with NECG/Mark Cromwell?

I understand they just moved their facilities down to a location off of rt 89 in NH. I was thinking about contacting them for a visit and a price quote on some other work anyway...

Best,
Dave

The best way is of course to be able to measure my customers in person, but since that rarely happens due to location, I send out a set of measurement worksheets.

This is the first worksheet, it gets direct body measurements:

I have a set of formulas that I use with these measurements to convert physical measurements into stock dimensions for Shotguns, Rifles, Double rifles, scoped rifles, etc...

I also send out a rifle measurement sheet:

Some of my customers already have a custom rifle that has been fitted to them, so taking the measurements from that rifle gives me another set of numbers to compare to. More data means a better fit.

I also have a questionnaire that goes with these worksheets, that asks questions about body/muscle tone, as well as questions about any physical conditions(shoulder damage,back surgery, etc..) that I should be aware of.

If the customer is honest with their answers(no reason not to be, they are paying me good money to make the rifle fit them), and they are capable of reading a tape measure accurately, I can custom fit a stock without ever meeting the person. In ten years of using these measurements and formulas I've never had anyone tell me they weren't happy with the final product.

I didn't invent this system, I learned it from the man I apprenticed under, and he got it from another gun maker, I've also come across variations of it in different books(mostly British shooting/hunting books from the 1800's).

Colin

Colin,

That is some great information! Thanks for taking the time to post it...!!!

Could you post the titles of the book(s) you mentioned? I'd be interested in reading more about this topic.

Once one gets the raw measurments from worksheet No.1 how do I then get that raw data into numbers I can use to build my stock? As I mentioned earlier I am in the middle of a project now and I am mostly going by 'feel' and studying the work of the pros. I'd certainly like to learn a more concrete way to move forward and work on my stocks.

Took a look at your website and really liked the rifles you produce. Very nice!

Thanks again!

Best,
Dave

Dave,
Seems like your best bet would be to find someone in your area that does stock fitting and have them fit you up. Then you could measure yourself and compare your measurements to the dimensions of the stock fitted to you. BTW I disagree with a previous poster that said it is not important to fit rifles. If you are talking hunting rifles, fit is very important in terms of both perceived recoil and target acquisition. I have 2 scoped hunting rifle that were fitted to me. When I mount these rifles, the crosshairs just magically appear on the target, no adjustments necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by DavidC:
Colin,

That is some great information! Thanks for taking the time to post it...!!!
No problem, glad to help.
Could you post the titles of the book(s) you mentioned? I'd be interested in reading more about this topic.
It may take me a while, I haven't read most of these books in years, so I will have to do some digging to remember which ones had what in them.
Once one gets the raw measurments from worksheet No.1 how do I then get that raw data into numbers I can use to build my stock? As I mentioned earlier I am in the middle of a project now and I am mostly going by 'feel' and studying the work of the pros. I'd certainly like to learn a more concrete way to move forward and work on my stocks.

Took a look at your website and really liked the rifles you produce. Very nice!
Thank you
Thanks again!

Best,
Dave

How to turn the measurements into concrete numbers....

This is going to be a very general answer because the formula has to be varied depending on what you are building. For instance a British Stalking rifle isn't going to have the same amount of drop in the comb and heel as a Golden Age Kentucky Long rifle. Shoulder mounted rifles have less drop and cast off as upper arm mounted long rifles. Scoped rifles have a straighter higher comb, than iron sighted guns. British and German Double rifles are designed for African Hunting(warm weather, longer length of pull), North American guns tend to be shorter in the length of pull because most hunting in N.A. is done in cooler weather with more clothing on. Double rifles are different than bolt guns, shotguns are another matter all together.....you get the idea, the numbers have to be varied to fit the type of rifle you are building. Each type of rifle and it's end use changes the numbers a little.

So here we go with the general formula that will get you a starting point to vary from depending on the specific end use:

Referring to "A" on the Body Measurement worksheet; "A" is the drop at comb. It is measured about 2" back from the nose of the comb down from the sight line(for iron sighted rifles).

Take "B" and subtract "A" from it. That's going to be the drop at heel from the sight line. You will find that most people have the heel above the top of the shoulder, so you can subtract 3/4" to 1" from this measurement. You'll see how it works when you lay out a stock on paper drawing it full sized.

Take "C" and Subtract "B". Whatever the difference divide by 4. That's cast off.

Take "D" and subtract 1/4" to 1" for a warm weather gun, this also depends on what type of rifle it is and also on physical conditions of the shooter. Subtract 1/2" to 1-1/2" for a cold weather gun, this again depends on the type of rifle and the shooter.

Cast at toe(also called pitch of the toe) is determined by the muscular tone of the shooter. Usually between 1/8" to 1/4". Your pectoral muscle extends out past the center mounting line of the shoulder, so depending on muscular tone will determine how much to pitch the toe out to keep the stock from pinching the shooters pec. The firmer the muscle tone the less pitch that is need, because the muscle is firmer and pulled tighter into the chest. For women it is a slightly different matter because of the extra breast tissue(I have a comfortable, non invasive way of measuring for that as well when I fit women for custom stalks).

As I said these formulas are just a general starting point, you then have to vary the numbers to match the type of gun you are building. If you have ever had a good look at various schools of American flintlocks and then compared them to British stalking rifles, they are pretty much at the opposite ends of the spectrum for drop at comb and heel and length of pull, so obviously these numbers are not uniform for every rifle, they have to be adjusted for different types of shooting, different stock designs, and different physical requirement of the shooter.

Colin

Colin I cant help but ask about two things.
First, what I have always thought of as the cast (on or of) at the toe you have refered to as pitch. Cast at heel and cast at toe has been my understanding of these two areas, rather than cast at heel and pitch at toe, as I believe you have noted.
Second, I have always thought that pitch was, on a side view profile, the angle of the butt relevant to the centre line of the barrel(or the top line of the stock) It can either be positive with the heel vertically ahead of the toe, or negative where the heel behind the toe.

Could you clarify your use (or my understanding) of these tearms. From your diagrams I would have said that you show negative pitch to the butt which would suit a very upright shooting stance or as in my case where the chest muscle mass makes this apropriate.

Von Gruff.

quote:

Originally posted by Von Gruff:
Colin I cant help but ask about two things.
First, what I have always thought of as the cast (on or of) at the toe you have refered to as pitch. Cast at heel and cast at toe has been my understanding of these two areas, rather than cast at heel and pitch at toe, as I believe you have noted.
Interchangable terms; I would guess it has to do with who taught me the terms more than a fixed definition. That's why I noted both sets of terms adding the other one in paranthesis.

Second, I have always thought that pitch was, on a side view profile, the angle of the butt relevant to the centre line of the barrel(or the top line of the stock) It can either be positive with the heel vertically ahead of the toe, or negative where the heel behind the toe.
I've always refered to the angle of the butt as pitch of the Butt or angle of the butt. This angle is usually determined by the type of shooting that the rifle will be used for and the "school" the firearms somes from.
Could you clarify your use (or my understanding) of these tearms. From your diagrams I would have said that you show negative pitch to the butt which would suit a very upright shooting stance or as in my case where the chest muscle mass makes this apropriate.

Von Gruff.

A lot of the stock fitting I do comes with the eduction and experience I have. Being taught certain schools of rifle building, studying dozens, maybe even hundreds of other designs and in combination with practical application, building guns for myself and others, have taught me how to tweak the numbers to get the proper fit to go with the rifle and shooter. I wish there was a set formula that worked every time for every shooter and every style of shooting, unfortunately that isn't the case and each rifle has to be fit to the application and the shooter for the best possible finished product. I'm certainly no master at stock making their are plenty of other gun makers/ stock makers around the world who have years of experience on me, I just seem to be one of the few who is willing to share what I have learned publicly. There are lots of guys out there with years more experience than me and they have a wealth of knowledge that I don't have, unfortunately most of them(not all) seem to guard their knowledge like it's some kind of black art.

Just my opinion; based in a little history, since the industrial revolution and with the advent of ever more modern, cost cutting technology we(custom gun makers) are loosing a lot of wonderful knowledge and experience because we don't share what we know with the next generation and this has been going on for several generation now. How many truly skilled manual machinist do you know now days....not to many left compared to a couple generation ago. They have mostly been replaced with CNC machines and fresh out of college kids that don't know how to use a file properly.

Enough of my ranting, back to the topic.

Colin

quote:

I'd love to hear how the British firms went about fitting their guns on a per customer basis.

Firstly make sure the customer has a consitent shooting style. You can't fit a gun to someone who holds too short or too long or sometimes "just right".

Just the same as a tailor couldn't make a well fitting pair of trousers for a man who puffed his stomach out like a comedy fat man, pulled it in, or sometimes just stood normally.

Also whereas you can fit a stock to fit a physical handicap you should never fit a stock to correct the error of an incorrect stance.

Basically by "eye". First you set a length of the stock.

That by seeing how tall the customer is. The taller they are (and if arm length is in proportion) the longer the stock.

Next the "cast". Again the slimmer or fatter the person (with an allowance for a bullneck or a long neck) the less of more the "cast".

Last when you have this you set the drop so as to give (when viewed from the muzzle with the gun mounted) a picture to the fitter of the front bead with the pupil of the customer's eye in perfect alignment and no rib showing.

Adjusting the drop raises or lowers the point of impact of the shot charge.

Now I forget the figures but it is something like a 1/8" at 16 yards moves the point of impact such and such at 40 yards.

For after the initial visual fitting the customer then fires at a fixed mark on a steel plate some ten foot square at sixteen yards distance.

The fitter then adjusts the try gun to move the point of impact to the desired place in relation to the fixed mark.

The customer then tries out the adjusted try gun on simple going away and incoming overhead clay targets to give a "field" verification.

Finally if all is good the fitter uses a measure to note the measurements of length of pull, "cast" and drop (or as it also known "bend").

A bit like:

1) Adjusting a telescopic sight on a rifle for whether it is forward or back in the mounts to bring it into focus before clamping it down.

2) Then adjusting the windage so that the shots are vertically in line with the bullseye.

3) Finally adjusting the elevation until the shots are that ideal 1" high at 100 yards.

(Although for a shot gun of course the centre of the shot charge would be proportionately higher and measured at 40 yards).

I'm not a custom gun builder by any stretch of the imagination, but I have made several custom fit stocks for myself, in addition to doing an occasional semi-inlet.

In making a custom, I have usually started with the basic measurements and suggestions in Bakers gunsmithing book or the Griffin and Howe books. Ideally I get a trashed stock to start from so I've got something in close to the right inlet and shape. A couple of times, I have started with a photocopy of a style I like blown up and traced onto the wood.

I inlet it for the action and barrel, so that I can try it with the final sights and action. Then, I cut off extra pieces that seem to be in the wrong place. Such as cutting the stock to put in cast off or drop in the comb. Then, I glue on pieces of soft wood to raise the comb, eliminate drop in the butt, thicken the wrist, etc as seems right. Roughly shape the pieces, and fill the gaps and transitions with Bondo body putty. Rasp it off, and try it. Note where the cheek piece doesn't fit, is too low, where the stock seems thick and clumsy, or too thin, etc. Rasp off extra, add on more with Bondo. Repeat until the rifle comes up naturaly and feels perfect every time. Put it away, and try it each time you walk by, noting how it feels each time. Make corrections, try things, and add or subtract using bondo or the rasp until you're sure it's perfect. I shot my mauser pattern for two or three years before I was comfortable that I had it just right, and finished it in walnut.

Then, duplicate it in your final wood, or send it to a stocker that can duplicate it if you don't have that capability.

I've got custom patterns I've made for myself in Mauser, Ballard, High Wall, Falling Block Works K and J, and am working on an Enfield and a pre-64 model 70 master at the moment.

That way, I can make a suitable stock for myself off the master anytime I want. It's nice to have similar stocks for your major guns, and have them handle close to the same. If I want to do something a bit different on the stock than the pattern, I just hold off the duplicator in that area to leave extra wood so that I can shape it to suit in the final finishing.

All this said, I don't think I could do a really credible job of fitting a stock to someone else. That would be an entirely different skill to acquire, and would take a lot of practice to see what is needed.

dave

Really fantastic information! I am learning a lot!

Colin,

Thanks for the formulas! I will try them out and see how I am progressing. As I mentioned I am working by 'feel' changing a little bit here adding a little bit there and then doing the Walter Mitty thing swinging the rifle, mounting it and trying to achieve instant sight picture etc.... These formulas give me something to key in on and use as a foundation moving forward. Very helpful!

I would love to learn about how this process evolved. Quite a process getting this all right for many different individuals...!

quote:

Just my opinion; based in a little history, since the industrial revolution and with the advent of ever more modern, cost cutting technology we(custom gun makers) are loosing a lot of wonderful knowledge and experience because we don't share what we know with the next generation and this has been going on for several generation now. How many truly skilled manual machinist do you know now days....not to many left compared to a couple generation ago. They have mostly been replaced with CNC machines and fresh out of college kids that don't know how to use a file properly.

Colin, Tom Burgess expressed this same thing to me many times. He felt that there is a lot that has been or is being lost.....



enfieldspares,

quote:

Next the "cast". Again the slimmer or fatter the person (with an allowance for a bullneck or a long neck) the less of more the "cast".

Last when you have this you set the drop so as to give (when viewed from the muzzle with the gun mounted) a picture to the fitter of the front bead with the pupil of the customer's eye in perfect alignment and no rib showing.

Adjusting the drop raises or lowers the point of impact of the shot charge.

Now I forget the figures but it is something like a 1/8" at 16 yards moves the point of impact such and such at 40 yards.

For after the initial visual fitting the customer then fires at a fixed mark on a steel plate some ten foot square at sixteen yards distance.

The fitter then adjusts the try gun to move the point of impact to the desired place in relation to the fixed mark.

The customer then tries out the adjusted try gun on simple going away and incoming overhead clay targets to give a "field" verification.

Great! Very clear & helpful information! The stock can be built to incorporate the the elevation of the bullets inpact point as well as the windage. This is what I am trying to achieve. A rifle that feels alive on the hands and performs as effortlessly as possible...

My understanding is that cast off will have a direct effect on the windage of the shot while the pitch [negative in the case of a rifle] will directly effect the elevation of the bullet impact. It is interesting to hear the drop will have an effect on the impact as well. I would guess that the drop works inconjuction with the pitch depending upon the use of iron sights or a scope....???


ssdave,

Thanks for the tips! I have not thought about using softwood and reshaping. I assume you use balsa..?

QUOTE]I shot my mauser pattern for two or three years before I was comfortable that I had it just right, and finished it in walnut.
[/QUOTE]

The more I dig into this issue & the more I learn the more I am sure this is going to take quite a bit of time & trial & error to get right!

quote:

I've got custom patterns I've made for myself in Mauser, Ballard, High Wall, Falling Block Works K and J, and am working on an Enfield and a pre-64 model 70 master at the moment.

That way, I can make a suitable stock for myself off the master anytime I want. It's nice to have similar stocks for your major guns, and have them handle close to the same. If I want to do something a bit different on the stock than the pattern, I just hold off the duplicator in that area to leave extra wood so that I can shape it to suit in the final finishing.

I am trying to do the exact same thing. Have a patterns that fit me for the different types of rifles I have and hunting I do.

If you have pictures of your process please post them if you don't mind.


Thanks & Best Regards,
Dave

Dave C,

Might consider a bit heavier pull on the enter button, will help eliminate the multiple discharges! Or maybe you've got a remington keyboard?

By softwood, I mean fir or pine or alder instead of walnut. Easier to rasp and shape.

Here's a ballard pattern and stock, it's built on an original ballard stock and extras added:




Too lazy to dig out pieces and take more pictures, you can get the idea from this.

dave

quote:

Might consider a bit heavier pull on the enter button, will help eliminate the multiple discharges! Or maybe you've got a remington keyboard?

Well you try and type a cogent post while holding a 10 month old in one arm and a 5 yr old hanging off of the other.

Take Care

david,

not sure if i answered you question. dont think i did. at any rate, no i have not worked with necg other than to buy some of their product. i have also been to empire rifles over that way but it appears they have dipped below the radar and not sure what is up with them as a business at this stage. hope they don't go the way of Hein since we all know what happened there!

DavidC,

I remembered one of the books and went digging through my library to verify the information.
"The Gun and it's Development" by W.W. Greener has several sections on stocking and fitting. The fitting section starts around page 420 and the stocking starts around page 270.

If you don't have a copy of "The gun and it's development" and don't want to try and track one down, I think it is in the public domain either at Google Books or the Archive(Gutenburg Project) online.

Another one that is worth a read is "The modern Gunsmith" Volume 1 & 2(particularly the section in volume 1 on design and lay-out), both of these are available on line in the public domain.

If I remember anymore of the books that have good information I will post them.

Colin

Colin,

Thanks for the book titles!

I will check both of them out and see what I can find.

The whole stock building process is a lot of fun. More so in that I am learning a great deal as I go along...

Best Regards,
Dave