What do AR Forum viewers / gunsmiths think is the best source for a wood replacement stock?

I have trawled the net and the stock makers below offer stock patterns I like.

The stock is for a Win Mod70 and it will need to be suitable for use with scope sights.

The trick / catch is the stock and action will be on a blind date - the barrelled action is in the UK and the stockers are in the USA. Only final fitting / tinkering would be done in the UK, including checkering and finishing.

The list of stockmakers are in alphabetical order by the way.

Thanks

Question:
What do AR Forum viewers / gunsmiths think is the best source for a wood replacement stock?

I have trawled the net and the stock makers below offer stock patterns I like.

The stock is for a Win Mod70 and it will need to be suitable for use with scope sights.

The trick / catch is the stock and action will be on a blind date - the barrelled action is in the UK and the stockers are in the USA. Only final fitting / tinkering would be done in the UK, including checkering and finishing.

The list of stockmakers are in alphabetical order by the way.

Thanks

Choices:
Great American Gunstocks
Royal Arms Gunstocks
Wenig Gunstocks
Your suggestions

 

my suggestion would be that if you are going to go to all of the trouble and expense of putting a nice piece of wood on your metalwork, the better thing to do would be to spend a bit extra and purchase a pattern stock (i.e. stock you want but made with cheap cheap wood) so that you can check it over, glass the metal in, whittle it the way you want, and then have somebody reliable run it through a duplicator.
Jeffe of this forum might be a good choice, and there are of course others.

I am going to agree with 22WRF...

I believe none of the currently listed semi-inletters can reliably supply a stock with inletting at least as good as factory...

I've fussed much over this topic and other members know it and continue to recommend making a pattern stock to your own specifications...

You might want to secure a buggered factory Winchester stock and start there- the stock and action may be on a blind date, but they are getting married shortly there after...

I would avoid Great American at ALL costs. The others aren't perfect but then for the price they charge you're not paying for perfection but will end up with a very servicable stock that will undoubtably have much nicer wood. Not every rifle or persons needs warrants spending big bucks on a custom and if many people could build a suiatable pattern they wouldn't need a semi-inlet, they'd just build their own stock. Another option is to find a reputable stock carver who has a assortment of patterns and send your own blank to be turned.

these guys are worth a look, in my book

unless you know a good duplicator that has good patterns, make your own pattern, glass your action and have it turned. You can go to gag or where ever and have one turned. But you will start out with a lot of wood to remove and a starter cut barrel channel as opposed to one close to you contour, action and overall shape. Not that inletting a channel is all that big a deal, but it sure is nice when your real close to start with.

quote:

dempsey: I would avoid Great American at ALL costs.

Absolutely.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:

quote:

dempsey: I would avoid Great American at ALL costs.

Absolutely.

I'll third that, be afraid, be very afraid.

i used to be a gag supporter...

until the LAST one, which will be the last i ever order from them...

horny beaver, high on meth could do better

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i used to be a gag supporter...

until the LAST one, which will be the last i ever order from them...

horny beaver, high on meth could do better

jeffe

Amen...and you can include Boyd's into that category.

I ordered a stock for an 1898 US Krag from GAG and it arrived with the forend (a full twenty inches of it) as a separate piece that I now have to fit with dowels and glue on like a long forend tip. It seems that their duplicating machine won't take a stock that long (which they fail to tell you when you order it.)

The 1903 Springfield stock I ordered at the same time had the entire inletting cocked off to one side, and way too loose, and the wood at the ends of the forend tip and the front and rear of the handguard was so chipped up that there was literally nothing there to work with.

I won't buy anything from them or Boyd's ever again.

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your advice. Not having tried to start a poll before, I was not sure how many categories you are allowed.

I would have added people like Richards Microfit and Serengetti. A riflebuilder has obtained one of the latter for a project rifle for me, but this is fitted to the rifle.

As was pointed out, do not expect the Cisteen Chapel roof at these prices. However, I would expect the inletting to be parallel and not be canted within the stock. I prefer the inletting to be a little tight - you can always remove a little wood.

Generally, the comments on Richards products has been so-so to ok / quite good. "GAG", on the other hand, attracts negative comments. Particularly on the customer service side and inletting problems. I have a memory that this was discussed six plus months ago on AR or another forum.

quote:

Originally posted by robthom:

As was pointed out, do not expect the Cisteen Chapel roof at these prices. However, I would expect the inletting to be parallel and not be canted within the stock. I prefer the inletting to be a little tight - you can always remove a little wood.

if you add that the exterior must have the correct shape with a little extra (inverse of tight) and that the inletting must be parallel in ALL axis, you have described the hypothitical perfect stock turning operation, assuming a perfect one off inletted stock.

Of course, this doesn't take into account the fact that each piece of wood is different and will hold differing tolerances... and FLEX during the inletting. I would rather sell a guy a stock that needs .025 twice (.050 net) removed from inletting and shaping, than one that is .005 too small.

I've tried, several times, to water and wait for the wood to grow back, ... i guess piss aint the right fluid!!!!!

As I have taken Les' design, resdeigned that, built that, redesigned twice more, built that, and see improvements to to my third design, I think i can speak that the machine is 75% of the stock. The other 25% is the art of the operator.
If I placed a dollar value to my time, software to design the machine, machine time to build the pantograpgh, prototyping and test work, I probably have $12,000 invested in my machine if all this were dedicated to the machine. This would be the accounting book value for a depreciation schedule. The life of the machine is probably 5 years before a major rebuild, if kept as is, which a depreciation cost of 2400 per year.
That means at a $100 a stock, I would have to run 24 stocks, per year, to break even without considering the operator time of cutting the stock. Taking a rather low shop rate of $35 that means, without tool breakage, I would have to run 60 stocks, a year, to break even.
There's a reason I do this as a HOBBY and don't try to live off it.

The shorter answer would be to buy a new machine for the same 12k (reduces lead time, in my case, by a year), spend 2 months (cost) to learning the machine, and charge a rather reasonable $200 a stock to turn.

But no one wants to pay $200 for turning of a stock to fairly close.. they would expect a high level of finish, no tool marks, no highs, in fact, they would expect to take a 90degree chisel, clip the hard corners, and drop their stock in... And, for a custom stock, from a custom pattern, perfectly fitted to thier particular rifle, can be done.

The price boils down to quality (read- price) of the machine, expereince (read- price) of the operation, and quality of the pattern (read - price) as compared to the rifle that will be the outcome of the turning.

Most guys would prefer a $100 stock that needs some sanding and inletting, to a $200 one that needs final fitting. They simply don't attach a strong $ relasionship to their time working on the gun.

The other option, proving that quality is a function of price and time, is to send a check to Custom maker, define what you want, que in his backlog, have it checkered, fitted, polished, and all the bazillion things that are to be done correctly for a perfect stock, and have a starting price of $2,000, plus the blank.

Straight, even, aligned in all axis, and a small amount to finish are the perfect goals of stock turning. The more of these things a person wants, the more they should expect to pay...

Conversely, some of the JUNK that comes out of large shops is, well, firewood and should result in that employee eating the cost of the blank. I would not let most of what comes from gag out of my shop due to quality control/name recognition.


Sorry for the discertation

jeffe

Every business is always going to have the problem of customers with champaigne appetites and expectations and beer pocket books.

When it comes to semi-inletted stock blanks I want and expect two things:

1. I want the action/barrel channel and guard inletting to be square to the centerline of the blank and in proper, square, relationship to each other.

and...

2. I want enough wood on the inside and outside to work with.

As long as those two things are there I could give a rats ass about how "pretty" the exterior is. After all...the exterior I am looking at on the blank is gonna end up on the floor anyway. I use Gary Schneider barrels allot and the outside finish on his blanks look like the surface of the moon when you get them because he spends his time and expertise on the inside where it counts. He only sells blanks and leaves it up to you and your smith to make them "pretty" on the outside.

I've built a couple of stocks starting with just a raw blank and the hardest thing, for me anyway, was getting the blank squared up so I had reference points to use in laying out the inletting and the shape. If you don't have a large jointer/planer and/or a band saw (which I don't) this takes allot of time.

The idea in buying a semi-inletted stock, in my mind, is to have a good "starting point" with the basic reference points already in place and in proper relationship with each other.

That is where most of these companies fall short, in my opinion and experience with them. They seem to spend far too much time on the outside shape of the stock...and spend far too little time on making sure the important things are done properly.

Rick 0311 caught my drift. A semi inletted stock is a starting point. And that is about it.

But Sir Thomas Beecham, the famous orchestra conductor once remarked to an orchestra - the audience expects you all the start together and finish together. They do not give a ****** what happens in between.

So, it is with a semi inletted stock. It has to be correct / no serious flaws which cannot be corrected for it to be built into something of use.

I would think nowadays the volume manufacturers, referred to here, are using computer controlled machinery, making 10 - 20 stocks in one go, 100 a week etc. Having written the computer program, set up your machinery, where the costs lie, then they press go once they have sufficent orders for a production run.

With repetitive tasks computer controlled, the tolerances should be better than that described in some instances on this forum.

I'm of the opinion the mulit spindle machines for lack of better terms maybe somewhat automated, but its my understanding they are setup to with large cutters for speed and turning 6 to 8 blanks at the same time, thats why a GAG stock looks like it been in a fight with a drunk beaver.

I'm of the opinon the sgl spindle ran by a skilled and experenced hand may still be the best game in town in most cases. Not that I'm knocking automation/technology............I work for one of the worlds largest automation companies, but the cost of control can be expensive

From what I've seen none of them use computer controlled machinery. I've heard Richards was but my last one surely wasn't. I see they advertise 99% inletted stocks, maybe they do on those and just haven't programmed the rest. I'd like to see a "75%" inletted stock, let me make my own gaps. GAG surely doesn't use computer machinery.. Their problem is their owner, you may get a good stock but if you don't, good luck trying to get ANY service out of him. The best semi I've bought recently was the Euro stcok Midway had on sale last year. I bet that was CNC. Order a Serengetti, fully inletted and ready to finish if you want your best bet. The one I ordered I was very pleased with. I did do some additional work but it was real close.

I have purchased three stocks from Accurate Innovations and they are very high quality. They would accomplish everything you want from one source. www.accurateinnovations.com

Having never seen or run stock duplicator I am starting from somewhat of a disadvantage...but I ain't stupid either!

Any machine (even CNC) takes a great deal of set up, calibration, and maintanence in order to operate as expected and turn out quality material.

The machine doesn't pick out and change tool bits by itself...it doesn't put the material in itself, and it can't "see" what the finished product looks like.

Someone at these places has to physically remove the finished product and put it in a box to ship to the customer. My bitch is how in the Hell anyone with eyes can ship some of the crap.

I got a two piece Remington 870 stock from Boyd's a few years ago. They ship their stocks with a cute little cheapo plastic butt plate...I would assume to keep the wood protected...and one would also assume that someone had to screw the damned thing on there. Well, my stock arrived and there was a chunk (not a chip, a chunk) of wood the size of my thumb missing from the tip of the toe all the way up to the bottom plate screw. The chunk was not in the box so it didn't break off in shipping and whoever put the butt plate on couldn't have helped but see it.

I have however finally figured out where a large portion of the illegal aliens are finding jobs in this country. Those that weren't qualified to blow leaves or work at a car wash have gone to work in these shops building stocks!

One issue not mentioned so far is how the machine operator lays out the stock on the blank. Judging by some of the QC problems others have related, I'm not sure I would want the same guy doing that. Of course, if the customer is supplying the blank he might be able to trace an outline on the blank before he sends it to them. This is one reason I have been using a pro stockmaker to turn my blanks. He has more experience than I do laying out a blank! I pay a little more, but I have had no problems.

Glen, who turns your blanks

Al Lind. I believe he is in Lakewood (Tacoma), WA.

Robthom

I just went through the

"Semi-inletted Stock from Hell"

thing. And I won't ever do that again. I spent a whole lot of time and grief trying to make that pig fly. It looks pretty good now but there are still a few flaws I never could completely remedy. They are hard to find but I KNOW THEY ARE THERE. I would have been much better off buying a good blank and doing the whole damn thing myself. Search for "Elmo's 99 PICS" for the whole sordid story.

Jeffe

I do believe the Horny Crank Beaver, done picked up and moved to Kansas
Do you want to part with that 358/99?

Regards

Elmo