I have had problems with the use of safety catches for a long time. I do not use them and have removed one from one of my rifles, after discovering it was binding the bolt. That can be fixed I know, but I render my rifle safe by flipping up the bolt handle. I carry my rifle with the chamber empty as much as possible but because of the noise of chambering, often chamber a round before the 'stalk' and hold the bolt open. This is still noisy on my Lee Enfield so I use the 'half-cock' which then locks the bolt. I have tested the half-cock and cannot make it fail. However, my No.I Mk.I will fire from the half-cock but then that rifle has the early Lee Enfield safety on the back of the cocking piece which also happens to lock the bolt closed on an empty chamber with striker down. The open bolt carry causes me to lose ammo from time to time but at least the rifle cannot be fired without a very deliberate effort to close the bolt (cock-on-closing Lee Enfield). The down-side is that dirt can (and does) get into the partly opened action. My Anschutz bolt handle can be bumped closed too easily, so I use that only during the last stages of the 'stalk' and keep my hand on it at all times.

Mate - its a brave man who relies on a SMLE half-cock position for "safety"...

Next time you are at a gunshow check the half-cock on a bunch of 303's. I suspect most will be defective.

Safe handling practice is the best form of "safety catch" there is . Even in our local firearms licencing lecture/test the safety catch is only refered to as " an aid to safe firearms handling ".

I never use one - half-open bolt or bolt closed on an empty chamber beats a flimsy bit of old steel on the back end of a smle bolt any day

quote:

Mate - its a brave man who relies on a SMLE half-cock position for "safety"...

Yes, I've had stated that the 'half-cock is only there to catch the striker should it slip out the fingers during cocking. But if the fingers are going to slip they will likely slip before the 'half-cock' position is reached. Personally, I do not like cocking this way - too much opportunity to forget where the muzzle is pointing! I have a 'new' 303 and the half-cock is indeed defective but strangely, I cannot make it 'fire' from half-cock. Now if there was a 'safety' notch just behind the 'at rest' position on the anvil, such that it would catch the sear with striker just a shade off the primer, it might be 'safe'. While the SMLE and No.4 safety is as secure as could be, it can get bumped or pushed off just as easy and as such I see it as more of a danger than a safety aid. And, yes, there is absolutely no substitude for safe handling practices. I just want third and fourth tier tafety measures. The failure of all safety measures resulting in an accident (or even embarressment) is just not an option! And we all know of such incidents - usually the ones resulting in injury or death. I should clarify - I use the half-cock to lock the action closed on an empty chamber on both my 303's but not my 303-25 as on that one, the bolt will still open with the half-cock engaged even though the gun cannot be fired.

If you're hunting, the 'safest' way to handle a rifle is to leave it in the safe and take a camera instead...

or you could carry an unloaded rifle and load it at the critical moment... or you could load it and leave the bolt open... or you could chamber a round and leave the bolt in a half closed position (tricky with a SMLE but it can be done)... or you could chamber and close the bolt and then pull the stiker back to half cock (braver man than I Gunga Din - easy on the range, not when you're bloody cold and your fingers can't feel a thing!!) or you could load, chamber and cock and rely on the safety... if you trust it (I don't).

It's be easy to have a heart attack worrying about the 'what if's'....

Depends on the circumstances.. and the people you're hunting with.

I grew up using SMLE's, and when looking for game, the mag is full, and the bolt closed (springs eased) on an empty chamber... when I'm 'on the hunt' the rifle is loaded and cocked... and my trigger finger is nowhere near the trigger.

Realistically, you and your hunting mates are more likely to die on the road getting to your hunting place...

hope you hunt alone

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Originally posted by butchloc:
hope you hunt alone

+1
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Realistically, you and your hunting mates are more likely to die on the road getting to your hunting place...

Especially the way my hunting mate drives!

quote:

hope you hunt alone

It's not my hunting mates I am worried about. I know where they are and keep my muzzle in a safe direction as do they. It's the unseen folks I am worried about! What troubles me is being safe and quiet! And as rugeruser says about pulling back the striker - "easy on the range, not when you're bloody cold and your fingers can't feel a thing!!" Where I hunt, one can slip, trip or stumble, so there is no room for error. Multiple safety measures are a must. I only ready my rifle to fire when I have the target in my sights. That could mean chambering the round but usually closing the bolt. So, how do you folks carry your rifles in the field, while actually 'hunting' and during the 'stalk'?

why not just fix the safety???????? clint

"for safety" .. was that really a question?

Aside from the safety measures that come from never pointing it at something you don't wish to actually shoot...

Well, I have a Blaser R93 and while there is a lot to be said for and against the design of that rifle I do think that the manual cocking system is a good idea. It can be stiff to operate until you get used to it and just like with a normal safety everyone at some point in their lives are probably going to forget to cock the rifle and so miss the opportunity of a shot.

However, when stalking game I would often carry the rifle uncocked but with a round in the chamber. The process of cocking the rifle is almost soundless but the process of chambering a round, no matter how much care is taken, almost always makes too much noise. When I am sure that the shot is safe and the sight picture is settled on the target I would then cock the rifle. If the shot is rejected for some reason then I would uncock before moving the sight picture from the target, or a safe backstop if the target has moved.

With the rifle uncocked the bolt is locked closed and so the chamber is protected from dirt, water, the round dropping out etc. and the probability of accidentally cocking the rifle is low.

While I appreciate that all systems have modes of failure I can't think of a better way to do it than the Blaser system, though I don't doubt that others who are better informed than I will know of some. At the very least I feel that the Blaser system is significantly better than a normal safety catch system, though I'm not claiming perfection.

Thanks caorach.
Folks, the question I asked was in all sincerity! If I were to find someone walking around swinging his rifle past me with only the safety between him and me, a shot might go off 'accidently'! As to fixing the safety - how does one do that? The safety lever gets pulled over to the safe position, a vine or piece of straw or some clothing pulls it off ... ! I did fix it - I removed it! But only on that one rifle since it does not lock the bolt on an empty chamber. The Lee Enfield is a bit of an odd-ball in that an uncocked action has no detent to hold the bolt handle down so it tends to open during carry. I should have mentioned this earlier - you folks might then have understood were I was coming from. In my world, there is every possibility of dropping a rifle, much as we try not to let that happen and mostly it doesn't. But we do slip and trip often. Often the ground we are standing on gives way. Do yourselves a favour. Test your safety's. See whether they can be made to fail (by being bumped off or placed in the wrong position). One of my rifles has the habit of slipping the safety on by itself. My Dad had a Oberndorf Mauser 22lr with a two position safety - the one on the back of the bolt that flips right over and locks the bolt. Well, someone carrying this rifle got confused which side was safe and took the safety off and walked around like that, I bacame aware of it when I saw the muzzle pointing at my stomach! That upset me! Firstly, why was it pointing at my stomach? Secondly, why was the safety off? And why was there a round in the chamber and the rifle cocked!!!!??? Three safety rules broken at the same time could have killed me! (Or done me serious injury!)

The great thing about carrying the rifle with the bolt handle up is that everyone can see its condition! We have a secondary safety thing we do, every now and again we ask each other for the condition of our rifles and report ours. That keeps us vigilant! When we go into a stalk, we tell the other we are chambering a round and if the stalk doesn't pan out we say we are making safe or have made safe, ie removed the cartridge from the chamber.

Another rule we have is to not fire until we know the others are behind the firing line - even in the bush! The guy who is slightly forward cannot see what the shooter is doing so the onus is on the shooter to make sure all is clear or he must simply pass up the shot. And we do!

I have figured a neat way of doing this with my Mk.I - I pull the bolt back slowly and push the cartridge straight down into the magazine. The other two Lee's don't do this too well.

I taught state sponsored firearms safety for many years. The safety catch is one of those things that makes me cringe when I hear most shooters reliance on it.

On most modern firearms its engagement is little more than that of hooking one fingernail over another. Not much to bet your life on! Worse is how many bet SOMEONE ELESE'S life on it!!!!


Our course approved statement was "A saftey is a mechanical devise that may fail." My personal description is that the "safety" on every gun is located in the same place, between your ears. In the event of failure, strike the safety repeatedly with a heavy object!!!


Any questions?

Firearm safety, a very important subject.
Many people are killed or injured "on accident" every year.

Having workled in an enviroment for over 30 years where getting shot by your own people was only slightly less dangerous than getting shot by the bad guys, I take firearms safety very seriously.

Now that I am retired it is hunting firearms safety that concerns me the most.

Also, since I do a lot of hunting with an 11 year old, I have come to appreciate the manner in which many European guns operate.

The Blaser, Krieghoff, and the system on the Heym 26 B, all similar in that the "gun" is uncocked while carried, has much to recommend it.

ONCE LEARNED, it does not pose any sort of handicap, near as I have found.

AND it is VERY safe.

Thanks for that! oupa, how did you teach 'real' safety? (Yes it is between one's ears, but the brain fails from time to time!) Mistakes are made and accidents do happen. And that is not good enough! I have tought myself a sense of horror just thinking of pointing a firearm at someone. To me, there is no such thing as an 'unloaded' firearm. It is simply a firearm! And it must be treated with the respect such a potentially dangerous device deserves. BUT, I have done it by accident! Just swung the muzzle toward someone without realizing they were there. Of course, the offending firearm was 'safe' at the time with an empty chamber and striker down and there was no finger anywere near the trigger. But it happened. The worst possibility as I see it is not checking the back-stop properly when intending to fire! Again we have developed a system of asking our companions whether it is safe to fire but this only reduces the chances of a mistake - we are sometimes alone when we shoot.

On the particular safety catch that I removed - I have corrected it. I dressed the spot that was binding and relieved the stock were it was holding from setting all the way into it's detent and I deepened the detent to hold it firmer. I also added another notch on the sear to hold the firing pin off the primer of a chambered round. This would catch the sear should the cocking piece slip while cocking by hand. I can now lock the bolt on an empty chamber in the uncocked state. That is the only time I indend to use the safety.

Oh yes, another safety rule I apply - no beer when hunting and shooting!

We're straying from the "gunsmithing" subject but I will answer your question. Quite simply a firearm is a mechanical devise same as any other, auto, chainsaws, etc... The only way to make sure nobody is accidentally shot is to ALWAYS ASSURE IT IS NOT POINTED IN A DIRECTION WHERE THAT COULD HAPPEN.
Never load the gun (round in the chanber) until you're ready to use it. I do not necessarily mean ready to shoot but activly hunting at least. Loaded guns in trucks, atv's ect. is bad news.
Use the safety catch but do not rely on it to prevent discharge! And when a gun shows evidence of some malfunction GET IT PROFESSIONALLY CHECKED OUT.
Above all else though, KEEP IT POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION ALWAYS. LOADED OR NOT!!!!!!!!!