I would be interested to hear the differences between these two actions. I would like to have a custom .30-06 built and was considering one of these actions as the basis for the project.

Thanks,
Chet

For a full blown custom rifle in 30-06 I would choose the G33-40 hands down, but it will be more expensive than a M-70 when all is said and done by a good deal....The g33-40 is just and outstanding action for a custom rifle when finished up properly....

Chet,

The Winchester will weigh more and they are certainly easier and cheaper to buy/find. Depends really on what you are building the rifle for? I have a .270 built on a G33/40......well I HAD one....my wife shamelessly stole it.

They are both good actions. The Winchester will be cheaper to build a custom on. It already has a great trigger, its drilled/tapped, safety is done, along with the bolt handle. The G33/40 however......needs ALL of those things done. IMHO. Plus you gotta find someone willing to turn loose of the action and you WILL pay dearly for it.

I know what one would pay for a M70 as I already have a few of those. What is a G33/40 in good condition worth? Where would be a good place to locate one?

Chet

Ray or anyone,

Outside of looks or cosmetic reasons, why would a G33/40 be a better action than a pre 64 70? Not being smart, just curious, especially considering that the G33 would be more expensive to finish properly (as you stated) which I assume would be due to the amount of modifying it would require.

I would be prepared to pay $500 - $650 for just the raw action. I may know of someone who has one. Let me make a phone call.

Just how different is the G33/40 from say a VZ24? Are they really worth 5 times the price? I've never taken a close look at one and am curious. I love Mauser actions and have several rifles (and a shotgun) built on them.

My favorite rifle for whitetails is a G33/40 6mmRem, after many years of hunting with a pre-64 M70 30-06. The G33/40 action is desirable for hunting rifles because it has a small ring and lightening cuts on the receiver side walls for light weight, otherwise it is no better than any other 98 Mauser. They require alot of gunsmithing: new bolt handle, new barrel, surface grinding/polishing, drill/tap for scope bases, new bottom metal, new trigger, new safety, new stock, etc.

Ok, so they require a lot of modifying to get them to a point that the pre 64 model 70 already has. So outside of "looks", why are they better?

They aren't any better in my opinion. I also don't think they "look" any better. But they do weigh significantly less. The rifle pictured above weighs about a pound less than my pre-64 M70 featherweight.

Just weighed one of each. No bottom metal on either. Just the bolt and action

G33/40 1 3/4 lbs

VZ-24 2 lbs 1 oz.

Better gas handling for one thing.

They are two different creatures all together. Kinda like choosing between a Winchester and a Remington.

Terry

Curious what the model 70 action would weigh and considering all the modifying the G33 takes, maybe some lightening on the 70 action could be done too.

When does poor gas handling reveal itself in an action? Is it when it gets a load that's too hot or are there other situations? I've never shot a G33/40, but I've shot a lot of pre 64 70s and have never noticed the poor gas handling characteristics that I hear associated with this action.

If you'd have had a case rupture, you would have noticed!

Bill,

Out of curiosity, what does a pre-64 M70 action weigh?

quote:

Originally posted by Prewar70:
Curious what the model 70 action would weigh and considering all the modifying the G33 takes, maybe some lightening on the 70 action could be done too.

When does poor gas handling reveal itself in an action? Is it when it gets a load that's too hot or are there other situations? I've never shot a G33/40, but I've shot a lot of pre 64 70s and have never noticed the poor gas handling characteristics that I hear associated with this action.

Poor gas handling is never a problem till you get a case rupture. When it happens, you'll get brass shards and hot gas blown through the action and straight at your eye's and face. The M98 handles this very well, the pre-64 doesn't.

Terry

for me the M-70 wins this one easily.....those that love the Mauser are never going to be convinced.....as are we M-70 lovers!!!

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
If you'd have had a case rupture, you would have noticed!

So if a case ruptures due to excessive pressure, weak brass, whatever the failure, that's when the shooter is going to find out if his rifle handles gas well or poorly. How often does that happen? That's rhetorical, but I can count on 1 hand the number of times it's happened out of who knows how many shots fired. Are there other reasons the G33 is better? Does it feed better, nicer bolt travel, more accurate, etc?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
for me the M-70 wins this one easily.....those that love the Mauser are never going to be convinced.....as are we M-70 lovers!!!

I don't know if I'm trying to convince anyone but I truly am curious. I suppose one case rupture and brass in the face would be one too many if it happened, it just hasn't happened to me. And if you are running hot loads or pushing the envelope is some form or fashion, maybe the Mauser action is the way to go for gas handling capabilities alone. There's always going to be tradeoffs I suppose.

once is enough to put your eye out

the Pre-64 is nice, but I would never shoot one without eye protection. It's a good idea with any rifle, but something I don't always practice when hunting.

Terry

(1) The advantage of the 33/40 over other 98 Mausers is weight and weight alone. At one time, people were using the actions to build so-called "mountain" rifles.
(2) I've had quite a few cases rupture over the years, but I shoot alot and I always load my own. Last time was about a month ago shooting a Springfield sporter using old Rem-UMC cases. I had 3 cases fail around the heads. Fortunately I was wearing glasses.

1ZR/TC1; and how often does a model 70 blow up? Almost a ridiculous argument. That line is like the Terry Schivo deal. Enough already. I own, load for, and shoot over 60 custom rifles mostly in Pre-64 model 70 actions. I load them hot. Never had one give up the goods on me in 35 years and over 200,000 rounds. There are far more dangerously soft 98 actions out there than Winchesters. Give the guy a break. A Winchester action is at least as good as any Mauser for a hunting rifle. There are theoretical advantages and disadvantages inherent in all man made tools. If you want to spend more money on a Mauser rifle go ahead and do so. If you want a perfectly usable rifle pick a Classic Winchester and go to work. It is far safer than a Mauser. It handles gas just fine, has the best safety and trigger on the market, is cheap enough, plenty of after market products to support it and so on adinfanauseum.

For anyone who would like to see a picture of what a G.33/40 looks like all dolled up and ready to go, there is a really good photo of one in the current 2005 Gun Digest in the custom gun section.

If you can find one, the VZ-33 small ring is almost identical to the G.33/40. Jack O'Conner had one barreled up in 7 x 57, which he gave to his wife Eleanor, and she shot many many heads of game with it all over the world. There is also a Polish Small ring action and a KAR small ring action, as well as the Mexican small ring action.

By the way, the 1909 Argentine Bottom Metal fits very nicely on the G.33/40 Action

IB404, First of all nobody said a thing about any pre-64 blowing up. What in the hell does Terry Schivo have to do with this any way? Shoot whatever you want, but to say the problem dosn't exist is just sticking your head in the sand.

Terry

I agree with lb404 on this issue and have had head separations with P-64s in .300 H&H and a custom in .280 Rem., with no ill effects. I did get a faceful of particles when a .243 Win. case let go in a Dumoulinn built on an FN "h-ring" action, so, the vaunted superiority of those, at least, is questionable.

My all time favourite for standard cartridges is the Brno 21H which is, in most respects, a commercial version of the G33/40 or VZ-33; I also prefer Brno ZG-47s to P-64s and about everything else, including Dakota. The problem is that there ain't many of these around and competition for them is tough. For a really super custom rifle, by a true master such as Echols, Heilman, Simillion or Fisher, the 21H is the best option, IMHO.

There is one other option that you might want to consider, although I think these actions are even more scarce than the G.330/40.

That is, the Grizel small ring action. About 4 or 5 years before Pete Grizel decided to join Don Allen in starting Dakota Arms after Don Allen left Northfield Minnesota and moved to Sturgis, N.D., he, Pete Grizel, actually manufactuered or had manufactured, a small ring action that was very much like the G.33/40 action. I don't know Mr. Grizel personally so I don't know the whole story, but I suspect that when he joined Dakota part of the deal was that he had to give up on making his small ring actions.

Now, of course, Mr. Allen has passsed away and Dakota is in other hands. But I believe Mr. Grizel is still alive and kicking, and I wonder if anyone has contact with him. Might be interesting to see if he would make a small run of small ring Mauser actions. I bet if the quality were good he could sell every one he made!

My pre-64 FW, barreled action, bolt, screws, floorplate, magazine box and triggerguard weigh 4lb 13oz exactly.

Yup, I have kept four of those in .'06, .270-2, .243 and they run about 7.25 lbs. with the Brown kevlar stocks, dual dovetails and Leupy 4x scopes, a tad more with VX-IIIs and they SHOOT, boy, do they shoot!

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
IB404, First of all nobody said a thing about any pre-64 blowing up. What in the hell does Terry Schivo have to do with this any way? Shoot whatever you want, but to say the problem dosn't exist is just sticking your head in the sand.

Terry

I will shoot what I want. The Shivo remark is directed at those that are argueing the same tired points of 15 years ago. Kind of boring. Just get over it. The Winchester in practice is as safe as anything out there. Could in be more safe, in theory, and if that bothers you spend a fortune on a military Mauser or buy a Classic Winchester and be happy with one of the finest rifles made.

Chet,

There's a beauty at dressels, 33/40, set up with all the bells and whistles in 270, just needs bluing and your credit card. Check the photos listed under custom guns.
Bob

Here's a few pictures of some finished G33/40s. They do look nice when completed and apparently they were a favorite action of Maurice Ottmar's too.



[URL=http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/prewar70/Ottmar33-403.jpg]

Then again, there's always a good ole' Biesen on a pre 64 model 70 action

Between the two I would take the Model 70. Neither of those two are world beaters in my mind, although near it, but I do think you will get the G33/40 and then try to make it like the model 70. The model 70 has a great trigger and you have to put on one the G33/40, the model 70 has a 3 pos safety already and you will install one on the G33?40, the model 70 does not need to be surface ground and the G33/40 does (well if you want it to look good it does), the model 70 has hinged bottom metal (although 2 piece) already and it will cost you $300 on the G33.40. Short cut all the work and $ and start with the end product you are trying to emulate.

Now if we are talking BRNO 21, it is a totally different story. And a new price tag too. Inegral double square bridge action, good trigger, either set or single, okay no hinged bottom metal but I will live with what they gave me on them.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

The M70 is a commercial action and should be compared to other commercial actions that are used for custom rifles (Remington, FN, Sako, Brno, etc).

The G33/40 is a military action and should be compared to other military actions that often used as sporters (K98, Mexican, Springfield, etc).

Don't want to stir up the hornet's nest here but I had a case head seperate in an old model 70 6.5 Gibbs. I still have the eyeglasses I was wearing at the time. They are quite pitted and have powder burns. The case failure was due to a faulty chamber (reamed oblong) not the rifles fault but I'm glad I was wearing glasses. I also had a Parker Hale (98 action) spit fire out the side when a primer let go on a 308 case that was double charged with pistol powder.The escaping gas warmed up the top of my right hand but otherwise nothing. The bolt had to be pounded open with a wood block and the barrel was bulged at the front of the chamber but P-H were known for this as the barrels taper too fast.Mark

Gents -

While only two G33-40's have passed through my hands, I liked them both. After investing much metalwork expense in each, they compared favorably in most respects with the many M70's I've owned, custom and otherwise.

To me, once past the usual issues of coned breeching and gas handling, the big discriminator was the relative sloppiness of bolt fit in the G33's. Even after considerable 'honing', neither of mine could ever equal the fit and slick operation of any garden variety Pre-64 M70 off the shelf at the pawnshop.

Another point not discussed here as yet: The magazine box, rails, feed ramp, etc. in the G33 are slightly shorter than in the M70. This was not an issue with either of my rifles, as they were chambered for cartridges derived from the 7mm Mauser case. But I always had the impression that full-length '06 based cartridges might be a squeeze.

Frankly, it's astounding to me that G33s are commanding today the prices quoted above. At one time Douglas Barrels would sell one of these for - if recollection serves correctly - sixty bucks. That was with matching serial numbers on receiver and bolt, and both Rockwell 'C' tested. I had one of these. The second one came over-the-counter from the retail shop at RCBS (pre-Omark). It had the matching serial numbers and also Rockwell dimples, so I always suspected it came originally from Douglas, too. Don't recall what I paid for it, but it must have been about the same as the one from Douglas.

Puzzled that noone has suggested the early postwar Husqvarnas, which were small ring 98s of good Swedish steel, and certainly were machined and finished very well.

If the "evil" poor gas handling capabilities of the Pre-64s keeps you up at night, just buy one of the new classic M-70 actions and be done with it. Once the rifle is finished, you'll hardly be able to tell the difference and with better gas-handling qualities you'll be able to sleep better at night. Honestly, talk about picking fly-shit out of pepper about the pre-64s. jorge

Thank you jorge! There are so many good actions to choose from that will make up into very classy customs. Each has its own set of quirks and idiosyncracies. You just pick the one you can afford and get to work. Dollar for dollar, you could be money ahead starting a lot closer to where you want to go with the Winchester rather than trying to duplicate tbe features of a Winchester on the Mauser. Like Chic said above. Thank you jorge! There are so many good actions to choose from that will make up into very classy customs. Each has its own set of quirks and idiosyncrasies. You just pick the one you can afford and get to work. Dollar for dollar, you could be money ahead starting a lot closer to where you want to go with the Winchester rather than trying to duplicate the features of a Winchester on the Mauser. Like Chic said above.