After 3-yrs @ TSJC, I got into the business working for Linebaugh, DakArms, Taconic, & Miller Arms (single shots). I learned a few tricks working for others. However, much of what I learned was on my own time with access to their machines and tooling.

There's really only 2 things that you need to "make it" in custom gunmaking.

1)make a good product.
2)effectively run a business.

While I'm confident with what I can do and what I'm willing to learn with respect to #1, Nowhere in my schooling or on the job training did I learn anything about #2.

After working for my self for a few years and having most of my machines paid for, I feel #2 is MUCH more important than #1 with respect to surviving in the business. I wish the business aspect of it came as easy to me as the gunmaking part.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
What D'Arcy said.

I'll add that IMO many folks today simply don't know what 'a living wage' really is.


Instant gratification isn't possible in the smithing area. Apprenticeship in most trades requires 3-5 years and the wages are normally about 2/3 of a Journeyman's pay or sometimes less. Why should smithing be any different?

I recall Lynton McKenzie's tale of his training and the poor living conditions necessary for him to be able to support himself. No car, one room in a garret (literally!), being paid by piecework and quality rather than by the hour, no benefits, etc.

JD
That was kinda my point. I would think that a graduate of gunsmithing school would be willing to put in a couple of years as a very low wage apprentice. IMO they should be happy to be paid enough to rent a small room and pay for basic food, ect.

During an apprenticeship period the apprentice should not expect to be able to buy a new truck, rent a house or raise a family. That stuff will have to wait until they are fully capable in their field.

If they are looking for a wage that allows them to "live well" they are not looking for an apprenticeship, they are looking for a job. This of course entails an entirely different set of expectations.

Buy a new truck... really?

If an apprentice makes 2/3 of what a Journeyman makes, what do YOU think Echols or the like make? Especially if an apprentice is making $6-$8 an hour with no benefits.

Apprentices (in my area) in the Tool and Die field make 1/3 to 1/4 of what Journeyman make. But guess what? They make $10+/hr with FULL benefits.

So why are gunsmithing apprentices so different?

Here is a short summery of how things went after finishing TSJC in 1963.

Several offers were considered and I took the $600 plus commission in Santa Fe, NM with a large general sporting goods store in 1963. I quit after they sent me out to level a cheap pool table. Don’t think that comes under gunsmithing. I gave them 2 months to find a replacement and they hired another student. 16 months and left on good terms

I wrote letters with my resume to several companies in Texas and had a couple of offers in FT Worth. One was too low a salary in a store with a gun dept. I couldn’t see any future with that company.

Next offer

Knight’s Gun Store was an old company which was a family owned partnership and started in 1935. These men were self taught but had a very good knowledge in metal and wood. They mentioned to me about them going to Oklahoma and studying under Hoffman and Dubiel. How much time, who knows?? I talked with then and later in the day they told me they could offer me a job at $400 per month (1964). I decided that I would take the offer , but on the condition that if they didn’t think I was worth more money at the end of ONE month I would have to quit. I was the first outside of family gunsmith that they had ever hired. They called me KID because of my age and they were in their seventies. I could see a future with this company.

First day on the job-----go over to the tool store and buy anything that I want to work with on my bench. Remember I had mentioned my stock experiences in a post on page one. On the third day Mr Knight brought a custom stock over to me and asked me to CHECKER the stock for him. I had shown them a couple of my own guns and I guess he thought I could checker or he would find out quick. I was able to do the pointed pattern quickly and when it was finished he came over to my bench to examine the work. His comment which I will never forget THIS KID IS AFTER MY JOB. In 2010 a man contacted me about some rifles he had bought after a person had died. He mentioned the models which were sold to him. As he described a rifle I knew it was the first rifle stock that I checkered at Knights Gun Store in 1964. It had Knights on the rifle.

As Kevin mentioned in an above post about someone else doing the work and the big name getting the credit and money. It happened to me until people found out that I was doing the work. They were good for me and paid well after I proved that I could do the work. That first months pay went up to $600. Very good people and I spent 6 yrs working for them.

I had my own shop for a couple of yrs with more work than I could do. I had a person wanting to apprentice under me. The VA or the State of Texas would pay me to train him. He was supposed to start on a Monday and never made it to work. I never did see him again. He made it hard for me to consider anyone else to train. TOO MUCH OVERHEAD. More to come if anyone want this type of info. Les Brooks

Alright gentleman, I have another question. I am mostly interested in sporting shotguns/double shotguns, followed closely behind by custom bolt rifles(not "tactical") and falling blocks.

I have heard there is a small showing by custom double shotgun builders/smiths in the ACGG, which leads me to ask this.
What are some of the big names in the industry that specialize in doing both of these; double shotguns and finer custom rifles?

I'll have to agree with JD and JBrown.
When I started in the machine shop, the Wife and I and our baby Son lived on Reiger St. in Dallas. Those of you that have lived in Dallas will tell you what a hell hole it was. We had 2 rooms and a bathroom. We ate potatoes fixed 25 different ways as we had to have food for the baby. My Mother in Law sent us bacon in the mail. I couldn't afford a battery for my old car, so I borrowed a charger and locked it under the hood and trickle charged it every night. Yes I even put cardboard in my shoes. No welfare and we kept struggling. Another kid showed up in 15 months[didn't know what caused them] and we found a dumpy 2 bedroom rent house and was proud of it. Still had the old Chev., but I finally bought a battery on credit at Western Auto. It got better as the war was on in Vietnam and we had a little overtime. I was on $2. per hour at this time and no benefits. I've bored you with too much already, but this did go on for quite some time. We learned to make do and found we could enjoy playing cards and dominos with our neighbors.
I think my generation is much better prepared for tough times. We take it as it comes and don't bitch about it. We just did what we had to do to make it work.
I know that you don't want to hear it, but nobody owes you a nice house and a nice car or truck. You need to make yourself valuable to your employer and the money will come. I may be an old SOB, but all 4 of my employees have been with me at least 25yrs each. They are damn good!
As posted above, if you have that burning fire in your gut, it will eventually work out.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Kevin,
I guess you could find a guy without elves.
Butch

quote:

What are some of the big names in the industry that specialize in doing both of these; double shotguns and finer custom rifles?

Steven Dodd Hughes, for one, but his finer custom rifles will mostly be single shot rifles.

Fal Grunt
You mentioned something about not wanting to argue and screw-up Aaron's thread. I agree and I believe our discussion has/is bringing up some interesting points. In turn the more experienced members are able to answer the questions you and I raise.

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
Buy a new truck... really? Traditionally in most trades an apprentice would be lucky to have any money left over after paying for food, shelter and clothing. BTW I know of a lot of young guys who buy new vehicles on loan while earning $10/hr.

If an apprentice makes 2/3 of what a Journeyman makes, what do YOU think Echols or the like make? Especially if an apprentice is making $6-$8 an hour with no benefits. I guess the real question is "what does a journeyman gunsmith make". What a world class rifle builder make should not enter into the discussion.

Apprentices (in my area) in the Tool and Die field make 1/3 to 1/4 of what Journeyman make. But guess what? They make $10+/hr with FULL benefits.

So why are gunsmithing apprentices so different?
This is where you and I are so far apart in our opinions. I don't think a gunsmithing apprentice working for a top rifle builder has much in common with a T&D apprentice(or a general gunsmithing apprentice). The T&D apprentice will most likely spend a lot of time doing simple repetitive tasks that take very little instruction/supervision. He will therefore be making the shop money. The gunsmithing apprentice, working under a top name builder, will do a variety of tasks that will require some instruction and supervision. This means that the master will be spending some of his time helping you instead of working, so you will be costing the shop some money(at times).

On the other hand, an apprentice working for a general gunsmith or a shop such as bass-pro shops would be similar to an apprentice in a machine shop in that they both would be doing actual money making work and most of that work will require less skill.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
After 3-yrs @ TSJC, I got into the business working for Linebaugh, DakArms, Taconic, & Miller Arms (single shots). I learned a few tricks working for others. However, much of what I learned was on my own time with access to their machines and tooling.

There's really only 2 things that you need to "make it" in custom gunmaking.

1)make a good product.
2)effectively run a business.

While I'm confident with what I can do and what I'm willing to learn with respect to #1, Nowhere in my schooling or on the job training did I learn anything about #2.

After working for my self for a few years and having most of my machines paid for, I feel #2 is MUCH more important than #1 with respect to surviving in the business. I wish the business aspect of it came as easy to me as the gunmaking part.

Your reply is a great truth not only on this topic but any product that is manufactured! Great insight!

Aaron,
While I make no claim to being in the same category as Echols or Wiebe, we are hanging in there, trying to improve and work on lots of doubles and falling block rifles. Stop by sometime for a chat, I see you are very close by, give a ring first to be sure we are in, 303-938-1996.
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Just out of curiosity, what about the other side of the coin.

A guy has saved his beer money for longer than he can stand becasue he always wanted to have a custom rifle made by a big name maker. Nobody else, just the big name maker.

So, he goes to the guy and picks out his wood and his barrel and his action, and all of that stuff. And then he finds out that a bunch of the work is not going to be performed by the big guy, but rather by some guy that is still wet behind the ears? Starts scratching his head? Gee, I am paying $15,000 for this custom rifle by this big time guy and now I find out that it was made by elves.

This situation was addressed in a somewhat roundabout way by Lucian Cary (remember him?) in one of his J.M.Pyne stories. IIRC the title was "The Secret of the Old Master" or some such. These short stories have been reprinted by SSE's Brett Boyd and are a joy for a shooter or smith to read. J.M.Pyne was a thinly-disguised Harry Pope and Lucian Cary was one of Pope's more-favored customers, so his Pyne stories bear an impeccably realistic and authentic pedigree.

The point of the story is that Pyne's apprentice did work that was indistinguishable from Pyne's own product and so Pyne had no hesitation in putting his own stamp (literally) on it.

And IMO that should be good enough for any reasonable person to accept. But that's JMO.
Regards, Joe

In 2004, at the age of 32, I decided to become a custom rifle builder. I had been a serious student of the hunting rifle from a very early age, and had read about and admired the work of the greats such as Owen, Biesen, and Fisher. I also was realistic enough to know that it would take years of working on my own to achieve the skill, knowledge, and experience necessary to succeed in the trade.

I knew from previous life experience that the best way to learn to succeed is to listen and learn from the best.

I sought counsel from those who had succeeded. At the top of my list were Jerry Fisher, Tom Burgess, and D'Arcy Echols. Jerry and D'Arcy invited me to their shops and I spent hours on the phone with Tom. Their advice led me to the gunsmithing school at Trinidad State Junior College for basic training. There I learned from some of the last of the "old school" smiths: Christian Hofmeister, Dave Nolan, and Keith Gipson.

I kept in close contact with Tom and D'Arcy through my schooling, who were more than generous in sharing their decades of collective wisdom with a "young punk". This led to a paid internship at D'Arcy's shop during the summer of 2005. Upon completion of my third semester, D'Arcy offered me a paid apprenticeship in his shop. The rest is history.

I am now in my fifth year with D'Arcy and have fulfilled every goal I set for myself.

And I owe it all for having the balls to just pick up the phone, to keep my mouth shut, and to listen.

Brian Bingham

Joe,

I've read and loved those Lucian Cary stories. D'Arcy used to have me re-read them when I was in my incubation period.

Have you ever read the book "The Gunsmith's Apprentice" by Boots Obermeyer?

Brian

I never thought this thread would turn out like this. It has been inspiring at times, and I am lucky to be able to ask questions to a very skilled group of gunsmiths.

Thanks again,
Aaron

quote:

Originally posted by XL Bar:
Joe,
Have you ever read the book "The Gunsmith's Apprentice" by Boots Obermeyer?

Brian

Brian, I've spoken and corresponded with Boots a few times but have never heard that he wrote a book! His usual gracious manner and personal modesty (my impression) is probably the reason. I've enjoyed my contacts with him and wish we lived closer to one another. Same with Glenn Fewless, another Northern smith for whom I have the greatest respect and admiration.

Next step is to try to find Boots' book!
Regards, Joe

PS BTW I wuz wrong about the reprinting of the Cary stories, it was Guy Lautard who had them reprinted. All of Guy's stuff is good and WELL WORTH READING for any aspiring or even expert machinist. Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Don Klein still takes apprentices, so I would satrt by calling him.

Will write more on starting out, tooling up, stock making/metal smithing/repair, apprenticing, etc when hands working better

But if I was starting out and looking for an apprenticeship I would be calling Mr. Klien on Monday morning

Don is retired.

[
Brian[/QUOTE]
Brian, I've spoken and corresponded with Boots a few times but have never heard that he wrote a book! His usual gracious manner and personal modesty (my impression) is probably the reason. I've enjoyed my contacts with him and wish we lived closer to one another.

Joe,

One of my instructors gave it to me when I was in school. It was written in the early '60s and is a fictional account of a young boy who apprentices with a gunsmith back in the late 1800s. It was targeted toward young readers and my sons and I have gotten a lot of enjoyment out of it over the years.

Brian

I typed this, then read a couple of the other ones and probably don't even need to post it, but since I did all that typing, maybe it will also help a bit.

As somebody that did the apprentice route but in a different area I'll give my input.

I'll try to keep mine short. A friend of my mom's bosses roommate (great huh) was looking for a helper building computers for his startup company. I was 18 and back from 4.5 months working for my dad in the Philippines. He told me that he'd teach me how to build the computers and after I got to the point where I was making money for him he'd start paying me. It ended up being 2 months I worked for free.

he started paying me 7.50 an hour, this would have been 96'. I worked for him for two years, at the end of that I was in charge of all purchasing, oversaw the building of computers with a couple of other guys helping me, and handled customer service for a few clients. I have the attitude that if I'm getting paid I'll do what I'm asked. While there I helped him build the shop at his house, then when he moved to a rented space helped build that whole place out. framing, sheetrock, insulation, electrical and low voltage wiring. I worked long days, late nights, whatever the job took. I even went with him to wire the electrical at his grandparents house and built a dog run for his puppy. I was still making 7.50.

through another friend of a friend's relative situation I applied for a job in the IT department at the local hospital. I went there for 10.40 an hour I think. After two years it was just over 14 an hour (that was 2000). I was there two years. A friend/mentor of mine left and suggested I apply where she was.

ten years later I'm in a career making good money, I still handle technology but am management really, I haven't opened a computer more than twice in a year probably. I made it though by being willing early to pursue it (I had interest at the time), work for nothing then peanuts(only possible because I was living at home, otherwise would have needed a 2nd job) and do whatever I was asked. Interestingly, even now I often do things that seem far out of my job description, I always see it as added value and figure anybody is replaceable but the guy that can do the most is lower on that list than others.

I listened to a speech by the superintendent of education about 4 years ago(fresno county). He said that one of the problems our students/young people face was that they leave school with a feeling of middle class entitlement. The shows they watch on tv are predominately of middle class families, they're led to believe that getting a degree automatically gets them a good paying job, and the reality is quite different. I have seen it myself, people that start working with no experience and feel they should have the same pay and perks (private office, bigger desk etc) as employees that have been there 5, 10, 15+ years. I think that is the reason so few would take an apprenticeship or a low paying job now.

that is not directed at you, you haven't indicated you feel that way, that was just to the group as my take on why they see few people willing to sweep, muck etc. for a learning

I was fortunate that for most of my life my family was middle class. but when I hit 15 my dad put me to work in his office, when I hit 16 he made me take a job working in fast food, not because I needed the money, but to build on the work ethics he'd taught me, and show me the value of a dollar that you earn yourself.

And best of all, I think this is the best time in the last 50 years to be in gun building. with the internet the tail end marketing potential for being a custom gun builder is bigger than anything a gunsmith had even 20 years ago. I bet that every one of the gunsmiths on here would tell you that forums like this and the electronic "word of mouth" has increased their business. That means more guys that can take apprentices and hopefully more opportunities for you if you then strike out on your own.

good luck!

Red

Les

I remember Knights Gun Store in the late 1960's and early 1970's. I had very little money at that time but would go there and admire all the neat stuff. I did buy my first gunsmithing book there by McFarland.

I remember two other gunsmiths there, Ken Pate and Lou Williamson. I met those guys at the Azle Gun Range.

Aaron,

I've read through many of the replies to your post and its great to see the encouragement from the men with experience in gunsmithing.

However, you must now realize what a hard road you have ahead of you.

At risk of pissing a bunch of these guys off....I'm going to throw in my tuppence.

Get a degree and a career is something that you enjoy and pays well. Gunsmith on the side.

Maybe you wont ever sing the blues about slaving over a bluing tank for $8/hr..., but you still will be able to build a handsome piece if you work at it.

I put myself through an engineering degree, and build rifles on the side, because I enjoy it.

The prospect of getting where I am now, working up through an apprenticeship, to me, is horrifying.

Ben

quote:

Originally posted by Ben Hooper:

Get a degree and a career is something that you enjoy and pays well. Gunsmith on the side.

Maybe you wont ever sing the blues about slaving over a bluing tank for $8/hr..., but you still will be able to build a handsome piece if you work at it.

I put myself through an engineering degree, and build rifles on the side, because I enjoy it.

The prospect of getting where I am now, working up through an apprenticeship, to me, is horrifying.

Ben

Ben, I've gone the same route as you, but you have to remember that not all people have the same opportunities, interests, and abilities. And, the education process is an apprenticeship of sorts in itself. For some, gunsmithing is the thing that interests them, and for their station in life, it may pay well, and be within their opportunities and abilities, where a professional trade is not.

I encourage gunsmiths to train as machinists first, and gunsmiths second. That's because the transition between the two careers is a one way street, with a machinist having a good chance of transitioning into gunsmithing, but a gunsmith having less chance of transitioning into machinist work if he has to. A good chunk of machinist training is applicable to gunsmithing, and it's easier to get a decent paying job right out of school, and then work on guns also. If you can make a go of it, gunsmithing can be your full time occupation, with the machinist traiing.

But, getting an engineering degree or some other professional field training when you want to work on guns, isn't necessarily a logical or prudent route to go. First, many can't afford the time and cost to go to school. Some may not have the ability, or the educational basis to succeed at school. And, most do not have the interest. We're fortunate that there are a few that have an interest in being full time working gunsmiths, so that we have people to work on our guns. Not all the work that is needed can be done by internet experts. In fact, I bet that 99% of the work that is actually done is done by people that never gunsmith on the internet. And, I bet that close to 90% of internet gunsmiths never actually get any work done. The keyboard is an amazing way to occupy spare time without actually getting anything accomplished.

It took me 7 years to complete engineering school, of which I had 3 years of internships in my field. 25 years later, I'm in mid to upper engineering management, make a good living, and work with gun stuff nights and weekends because I like to do that. If my primary interest was in working on guns, I'd have been better off spending those 7 years working 30 to 40 hours a week as an apprentice, and still could have held the night job that I had in school to pay for my living expenses.

There's some substantial benefit to having a better education and a high paying occupation if you have that interest. But, don't be condescending to people that are working hard to learn a different trade. There's a need and a niche for those people, just as there is for engineers, accountants, salesmen and attorneys. And, the person that apprentices under a master, and works at the trade 40 hours a week for several years will achieve a skill level that we aren't likely to gain in all the evenings of our lifetime.

If everyone was trained as an engineer, I'd be working on guns in the day because it paid well, and doing engineering at night as a hobby. And, wouldn't be nearly as good an engineer as those that were interested in it enough to do it full time.

dave

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
After 3-yrs @ TSJC, I got into the business working for Linebaugh, DakArms, Taconic, & Miller Arms (single shots). I learned a few tricks working for others. However, much of what I learned was on my own time with access to their machines and tooling.

There's really only 2 things that you need to "make it" in custom gunmaking.

1)make a good product.
2)effectively run a business.

While I'm confident with what I can do and what I'm willing to learn with respect to #1, Nowhere in my schooling or on the job training did I learn anything about #2.

After working for my self for a few years and having most of my machines paid for, I feel #2 is MUCH more important than #1 with respect to surviving in the business. I wish the business aspect of it came as easy to me as the gunmaking part.

Jim,

I should have mentioned that I called and picked your brain too. You steered me towards the Trinidad School. Do you remember me pestering you?

Brian

quote:

Originally posted by XL Bar:
Jim,

I should have mentioned that I called and picked your brain too. You steered me towards the Trinidad School. Do you remember me pestering you?

Brian

Sure
You're one of the few that actually work in the field after going through school.

Brian[/QUOTE]
Sure
You're one of the few that actually work in the field after going through school.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately that is true. I think I am the only member of my class of 16 who is currently working full time in the field.

Brian

Brian,

I see you are working full time now. Do you remember me telling you to go to TSJC?

I might have told you at the same time only about 5 % go on to become custom stockmakers that go through the school. I hope you are one of the few that can make it. Good luck,

Les Brooks

Yes I do Les and thank your for your encouragement. I also still have the stock duplicating dvds you sent me.

I've received so much good advice over the years from so many talented people. Talented people who really want to see this trade survive.

Brian

quote:

Originally posted by ssdave:

quote:

Originally posted by Ben Hooper:

Get a degree and a career is something that you enjoy and pays well. Gunsmith on the side.

Maybe you wont ever sing the blues about slaving over a bluing tank for $8/hr..., but you still will be able to build a handsome piece if you work at it.

I put myself through an engineering degree, and build rifles on the side, because I enjoy it.

The prospect of getting where I am now, working up through an apprenticeship, to me, is horrifying.

Ben

Ben, I've gone the same route as you, but you have to remember that not all people have the same opportunities, interests, and abilities. And, the education process is an apprenticeship of sorts in itself. For some, gunsmithing is the thing that interests them, and for their station in life, it may pay well, and be within their opportunities and abilities, where a professional trade is not.

I encourage gunsmiths to train as machinists first, and gunsmiths second. That's because the transition between the two careers is a one way street, with a machinist having a good chance of transitioning into gunsmithing, but a gunsmith having less chance of transitioning into machinist work if he has to. A good chunk of machinist training is applicable to gunsmithing, and it's easier to get a decent paying job right out of school, and then work on guns also. If you can make a go of it, gunsmithing can be your full time occupation, with the machinist traiing.

But, getting an engineering degree or some other professional field training when you want to work on guns, isn't necessarily a logical or prudent route to go. First, many can't afford the time and cost to go to school. Some may not have the ability, or the educational basis to succeed at school. And, most do not have the interest. We're fortunate that there are a few that have an interest in being full time working gunsmiths, so that we have people to work on our guns. Not all the work that is needed can be done by internet experts. In fact, I bet that 99% of the work that is actually done is done by people that never gunsmith on the internet. And, I bet that close to 90% of internet gunsmiths never actually get any work done. The keyboard is an amazing way to occupy spare time without actually getting anything accomplished.

It took me 7 years to complete engineering school, of which I had 3 years of internships in my field. 25 years later, I'm in mid to upper engineering management, make a good living, and work with gun stuff nights and weekends because I like to do that. If my primary interest was in working on guns, I'd have been better off spending those 7 years working 30 to 40 hours a week as an apprentice, and still could have held the night job that I had in school to pay for my living expenses.

There's some substantial benefit to having a better education and a high paying occupation if you have that interest. But, don't be condescending to people that are working hard to learn a different trade. There's a need and a niche for those people, just as there is for engineers, accountants, salesmen and attorneys. And, the person that apprentices under a master, and works at the trade 40 hours a week for several years will achieve a skill level that we aren't likely to gain in all the evenings of our lifetime.

If everyone was trained as an engineer, I'd be working on guns in the day because it paid well, and doing engineering at night as a hobby. And, wouldn't be nearly as good an engineer as those that were interested in it enough to do it full time.

dave

I feel compelled to disagree with people that put forth the image that you have to suffer years of apprenticeship as a gunsmith, to do good work.

I took machine tool operations 1,2,3 as electives and also work studied in the machine shop for 3 years. I started hobby shop work building steam engines. I enjoyed hunting and also shot on the rifle team also. Gunsmithing was a natural progression. I find the machine work quite easy actually.

I think most souls that could succeed apprenticing under a gunsmith (notoriously difficult individuals), could also put themselves through a 4 year engineering degree.

The days when a young man can make a living as a tradesman in this country, sadly, are over.

Young people need post secondaty education to succeed...period.

I am 36, and am on the door to military retirement in a few years. For about 10 years I have been a military armorer, and done most of the barrel swapping, lapping, truing, general smithing working for the outfits I have worked for.

I have spent a lot of time working my brain over to figure out if it is worth it to be a gunmaker/gunsmith/armorer in the civillian sector. I think it still is if are someone who has the skill and artistic ability to do it.

In this country we have a couple of ongoing issues with gunsmiths.

1. We don't have a gunsmithing only 4 year school, where a kid can go and do nothing but gunsmithing unil he is proficient enough to go to work for someone like Dakota or Shiloh Sharps, let a lone venture out on their own like Echols or Miller.

2. We don't have the same market the Germans and English do that would provide for this kind of skill.

In the United States and Canada we have about 3 seperations of gunmakers.

Armorers: Folks that can swap parts, true actions, glass bed, and produce a solid shooting rifle from parts someone else makes. You can build a lot of nice fiberglass and laminates tocked rifles from componants. We have a lot of these people some of them are fairly famous.

Gunsmiths: Folks that can build a stock from a piece of wood, cut their own barrel, build their own; trigger, bolt action, barrel, scope mounts, bottom metal. We have a few more of these and in America most of these guys are considered to be masters. Some specialize in building actions and selling those actions to others.

And then we have the Coupe De Grasse!
The meisterbuchsenmacher/master gunmakers. We don't have very many of these, and there are a lot of men that in America that beleive they are this. I think Ralph Martini and Martin Hagn, Tony Galzan, Don Allen was, Butch Searcy, and not a whole lot more are. These are the people that build the entire rifle, and every single part excepting maybe the barrels. We don't have many folks like Peter Hofer in America, and while I do beleive we have exceptional gunsmiths we just don't have a whole bunch doing what the average Ferlach, Suhl, or Liege gunsmith is doing.

I know a lot of very good gunsmiths, some exceptional, and a couple meisterbuchsenmachers.

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
Buy a new truck... really?

If an apprentice makes 2/3 of what a Journeyman makes, what do YOU think Echols or the like make? Especially if an apprentice is making $6-$8 an hour with no benefits.

Apprentices (in my area) in the Tool and Die field make 1/3 to 1/4 of what Journeyman make. But guess what? They make $10+/hr with FULL benefits.

So why are gunsmithing apprentices so different?

Probably because the gunsmiths are making a fraction of what the guys who own machine shops make.

The harsh economic reality of the situation is the gunsmith has to make $, and by taking on an apprentice, he's taking time out of his day that he could be (should be) making money to train the apprentice. So with his lost time, and what little work the apprentice can do, there isn't much of an incentive for the smith.

If you pencil out what it costs to get a formal gunsmith education, then the costs of starting up a shop, and the capital required to tide you over those first few years, you'll see that you can make a much better living in a host of other fields.

I think the best advice is to find a trade or profession to pay the bills, and teach yourself and build up a shop on the side.

I start engineers fresh out of school, with 4 year degrees at $600/day with benefits. Within 5 years they usually advance to the $800-$1000/day range.

Ben, presuming a straight 40 hour, 5 day week, that's $3000 a week, or $156,000 per year. I'm very much in tune with what an entry level engineer makes, it's usually about $40,000 to $55,000 depending on field. Some top individuals do more, some get underemployed just to get started. There's no real hot engineering fields at the moment, and many are glad to get a job at all. One of the guys that worked for me the past 3 years while going to school recently graduated, and got a job barely making more than he made while going to school, about $35,000 per year, but in a good firm that should progress him. He's glad for that job, many of his classmates didn't get one.

The economics of $600 per day calculate as follows in the engineering world I live in:

$600/day = $75/hr. An EIT has about 85% chargeable time, the rest goes to vacation, travel, training, and non-billable work. $75/.85 = $88.23 per chargeable hour. Multiply that by a typical overhead rate of 2.4 = $211 per hour rate. This is more than most expert witnesses and principal engineers are able to charge, you must live on another planet if you get this for an EIT. If you work your EIT's 12 hour days (I know some firms that do) and get their efficiency up to 95% (I've never seen that anywhere), that still would equate to a $125 per hour chargeable rate. Now, you're down into the principal engineer rate for most firms, not EIT rate.

Most of the principal engineers I know would jump at a chance to be paid $600 per day, much less $800 or $1000.

What engineering field are you in? You're obviously in one of the most highly sought after and paid fields there is. I guarantee you're entirely out of my league.

dave

Postscript: Here's a 2010 salary survey of engineering grads from a major university. Keep in mind this came from a university website, they deliberately exclude underemployed individuals to make themselves look better, plus many unemployed and underemployed don't report:

Job Salary Survey for 2010
Major # Offers Reported Average Salary High Salary Low Salary
Biomedical Engineering 20 50463.50 67200.00 27040.00
Chemical Engineering 28 61776.89 67000.00 35360.00
Chemistry 5 41338.00 59000.00 30500.00
Civil Engineering 26 51659.38 64000.00 37440.00
Computer Engineering 13 63498.85 104000.00 50000.00
Computer Network & SA 16 49575.38 60000.00 35000.00
Computer Science 12 55616.33 68000.00 33280.00
Computer Systems Sci 3 48866.67 60000.00 41600.00
Construction Management 6 50750.00 58500.00 37000.00
Electrical Engineering 44 58490.91 74880.00 35360.00
Electrical Eng Tech 3 53980.00 77000.00 37440.00
Environmental Engin 5 52100.00 60000.00 39000.00
Geological Engineering 3 37866.67 50400.00 31200.00
Materials Science Eng 1 59280.00 59280.00 59280.00
Mathematics 3 49900.00 58700.00 41000.00
Mechanical Engineering 85 54216.80 70228.00 29120.00
Mechanical Eng Tech 6 58000.00 84000.00 36000.00
Software Engineering 7 57099.43 65000.00 45000.00
Surveying Engineering 2 38480.00 43680.00 33280.00

Out of everyone working as a apprentice for big firms in the USA, Canda, and Europe, how many of those kids are making a living wage?

And how many can leave after 6-8 years and make a living wage?

Not many.

In Casper Wyoming we have lots of gunsmiths, from folks that don't no shit about anything to folks like Dale Storey that are toward the top of the pile as far as Wyoming goes. He's not Peter Hofer or Ralph Martini but no one in Wyoming is.

Dale Storey has a rental storage unit business attached to his shop. I would assume he is making more on that than he is on building $6000 muzzle loaders and very wonderful Mausers, as well as selling Kreighoffs and Merkels. I don't think he has sold a lot of K-guns or merkels either.

A lot of guys in town have worked for Dale as apprentices, and a few others either went to school in Lassen, Trinidad, or CST.

I think we have some niche markets in America if you want to be a gunsmith and you can work a CNC machine that still have room for growth.

1. AR-15/10 crowd.

2. Sniper rifle/1000 yard range gun crowd.

3. If your not in one of those niches, and you are working on the high dollar mauser/m70 group I hope your good. The bottom line is you have to find a niche and try and make it work. Mark Bansner has done very well selling sheep rifles, and I think that if you are doing something "better" in any realm people will eventually notice.

4. I really believe that if you can build something unique or something interesting and not before seen in great quantity you can make a niche for yourself.

Marine engineers, specifically in Oil and gas exploration/drilling. Rotational, with paid transportation.

4th, 5th and 6th generation, ultra-deepwater drillships and semi-submersibles.

Our petroleum engineers make slightly less to start, but have a greater potential career path overall.

Ben

quote:

Originally posted by Ben Hooper:
Marine engineers, specifically in Oil and gas exploration/drilling. Rotational, with paid transportation.

4th, 5th and 6th generation, ultra-deepwater drillships and semi-submersibles.

Our petroleum engineers make slightly less to start, but have a greater potential career path overall.

Ben

Ben, now I see where you're coming from. You're in a field that it would be even harder to get a job in than in the custom gun business. A lot of competition at that level for positions, and there's going to be few that start out in school that will even have a hope of getting there. And a lifestyle that many won't take. I have a friend that does rotational assignments on a drill rig. Makes incredible daily wages like you say, and he envies my steady job and reasonable hours per day.

dave

What Dave said.

Dave's analysis is, IMO, spot on. His salary ranges are very realistic in my experience, and my perspective is from the nuclear angle which is usually considered to be one of the higher-paid fields.

My old outfit has lots of guys who come in on rotating assignments or from engineering job-shops, and all of them, EVERY SINGLE ONE, tries to get hired permanently. That should tell you something, some of these guys are making upwards of $150-$200/hour gross but they'd trade that for a good permanent $50/hour job.

Unfortunately gunsmithing is kinda like anything else that's fun to do, it's very low-paid. Exactly like flying, IMO. You either hafta make peanuts as an instructor or charter pilot or else make the big bux and be bboooorrrreeedddd and aggravated being an aerial taxi driver. Too bad.
Regards, Joe

I remember getting out of the army and going back to college. I had a "house" converted from a one car garage, with a bathroom built on I rented for a hundred dollars a month. There was this huge park with ponds and a couple hundred resident ducks and geese nearby. Twice a week, I went down with my bow after dark and collected "dinner". It was a long three months before that GI Bill check arrived. I still hate waterfowl meals!

You have to live tight for at least the first year, and have the discipline to last out. Guys talk about needing a big check. This is the equivalent of being in school, there ain't no money. You have to want it really bad to make it.

I wish you luck, and check your PM's.

Rich
DRSS

With me it was venison, not waterfowl, so I DO know where you're coming from.

Even today I have no cell phone and I don't pay any cable TV bills either. I know folks who pay $500/mo just for a freakin' phone! And don't get me started on folks who hafta borrow money just so they can have a later-model car!

It's like I tell My Bride about quitting her cigarette habit, "If the 'want to' is strong enough then the 'can do' will come along one way or another!"

But I WILL admit that a family and an education normally don't mix. I urge all of you aspiring smiths to get your education first and THEN think about marriage, most women today will insist upon having all the mod cons and even luxuries like cell phones and credit cards, right away. Hostages to fortune and all that.
Regards, Joe

I agree, my wife isn't so hung up on junk. Her hang up is on education. She has 5 college degrees, 2 bachelors, 2 masters, and a teaching certificate. We still owe $30,000 on her college loans and she said something the other day about finding herself and being a natural healer.

I told her that it better pay well and cost noting to do.

She is kind of addicted to buying dresses and I am king of addicted to buying guns and hunting, so we live with that. Thank God she doesn't care about what care she drives.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
What Dave said.

Dave's analysis is, IMO, spot on. His salary ranges are very realistic in my experience, and my perspective is from the nuclear angle which is usually considered to be one of the higher-paid fields.

My old outfit has lots of guys who come in on rotating assignments or from engineering job-shops, and all of them, EVERY SINGLE ONE, tries to get hired permanently. That should tell you something, some of these guys are making upwards of $150-$200/hour gross but they'd trade that for a good permanent $50/hour job.

Unfortunately gunsmithing is kinda like anything else that's fun to do, it's very low-paid. Exactly like flying, IMO. You either hafta make peanuts as an instructor or charter pilot or else make the big bux and be bboooorrrreeedddd and aggravated being an aerial taxi driver. Too bad.
Regards, Joe

It's the worse job in the world when your away from your family, home and hobbies.

It's the best job in the world, whilst your at home six months a year on vacation. This is why I have so many hobbies.

I've worked about 75% my career rotational, half that ashore in design and construction.

So, I've tried it all, and I still rotate.

Ben