In Mark Stratton's thread I noticed a comment he made about the art and trade of custom gun making not really being passed on as much in this day an age. I had always thought this, but only being a student of the trade and having no real world experience I just left it as a thought rather than fact. Mark's statement made me think.

With todays trends in different styles of guns, and the type of work that is usually done to them I can kind of see how this could apply. A good number of guns these days can be easily fixed/altered by just switching out a component, with very little to no fitting required. Is this going to lead to the demise of craftsmanship, quality, and imagination?

This brings me to another question. Like mentioned earlier I am a student of the trade, a very young one at that. I am interested in general smithing for the variety, but am much more inspired and driven to do custom, or top notch work like I see from a few here. It seems I just dont see, read, or hear of people apprenticing under some of you custom gun makers, and wonder if this has died or is rare these days?

I don't know that I grasped your question in the nature it was intended, but I will tell you what I think you and other students of the art should know.

Several well known smiths have apprenticed under well known smiths when they were young.

D'arcy Echols posted here a few years ago that he had had very few gunsmithing students ask to apprentice under him. He went on to state that he is always looking for good help.....

If I were in the position of a young gunsmithing student I would work hard in school and ask several of my instructors for very basic letters of recommendation when I was about half way finished with school. Then I would chat up D'arcy and other top smiths at the SCI show or the Guild show and ask them what I would need to do(additional courses outside the gunsmithing program or ???) to get them to take me on as an apprentice after I receive my degree.

I think a young smith would be way ahead(in skill and viability as a custom rifle builder) if he apprenticed under a well know smith. Better yet would be to apprentice under several well known smiths.

You would

K&P Rifle Barrels, while they were located in Raton, told me that they had tried to hire some of the TSJC smithing students to work in their cut-rifling shop but with no success. Apparently most of the Trinidad students of that time (late '90s) didn't want to learn or didn't want to work or didn't want to drive 25 miles.

When I was at Trinidad in the '60s, Paul Mayer had a reamer-making shop in Raton and he always employed someone from the smithing program on a part-time basis. The job was desirable to the students, desirable enough so that Bill Prator the Machine Shop instructor had to give his recommendation for the winning applicant.

Apparently 30 years has made quite a difference in the students' attitudes...
Regards, Joe

Mr. Little,
I take exception to you saying the current custom smiths are lacking in skill of the older guys. I believe we have more talented smiths than ever. The jobs are out there, how much do you really want to pursue it?
Butch

quote:

I take exception to you saying the current custom smiths are lacking in skill of the older guys. I believe we have more talented smiths than ever.

I had no intentions of saying the current custom smiths are lacking, far from it. Some of the stuff posted here is amazing, and I aspire to be at that level. Maybe I need to go back and check my wording...

EDIT: I deleted the line from my original post that could have been interpretted in a way that I did not intend. Bad wording on my part.

A couple of points.
One if you want to apprentice under a top smith you need to apply send a resume and talk to the smith. It may just get your foot in the door.

the other thing is you should really look into a machinist trade. Tool making, Die maker, Job shop one off stuff.

The other thing is there are a bunch of guys out there trying to get rich quick with nothing more then a catalog of AR15 parts and a few tools. These guys are nothing more then wrench heads trying to make a buck. But to call them self a Gunsmith is very inaccurate. Just like A squared say the rifle is made in their state. Where did the action come from?? There is a huge difference between building a rifle and assembling one.

One of the advantages of the original apprenticeship system was that the master got a very low-paid assistant to do all the dirty work while the assistant got a bare living wage and good instruction not available elsewhere.

Problem today: very few 'apprentices' these days would be content with a bare living wage, and good instruction IS available elsewhere.

'Apprenticeship' and 'instant gratification' unfortunately don't go together.
Regards, Joe

Aaron,

Where are you going to school? I will try to help you decide on what happens after you finish the school.

I finish TSJC in 1963 and spent the next 40 yrs working as a general gunsmith and in the off season making a few custom stocks.

The company where I worked hired more than 10 graduates from gunsmith schools. Not anyone had the ability to do complete stock work. If you can't make money for a company then they don't have time to train you if you are getting paid. If you want to work at a reduced wage you may find someone who will train you. I offered to help anyone working for us to learn stockmaking and checkering in their off time. Not any of these people had an interest in learning this field. All had the ability to do lathe work, but lacked the stockmaking knowledge. I made at least 10 stocks in 15 months while in school. I was the first student allowed to finish the school in less than the 2 yrs by taking 1st and 2nd yr courses my first year. Louie Mrace was my stockmaking instructor and he told me that I was the first. We had to have credits to transfer to a 4 yr college inorder to get the AAS degree. I had enough transfer credits so I only had to take the gunsmithing class. The school was on a quarter semister system. Three semisters per year and summer school. I finished in 5 quarter semisters and had several job offers. Make the most while in school.

Paul Mayer the reamer guy in Raton,NM hired me to do stock work for him when I was in school. I took reamers as pay and built up an inventory of several popular calibers. I remember making 3 stocks for him and if anyone has a stock with Paul Mayer signed inside it could be one that I made.

I was making stocks and checkering before I went to school by learning from reading the American Rifleman Mag. I went to school to study metal work. You must study all that is available out there and hope you have artistic ability for stockmaking. Remember only about 5%of the guys going to gunsmith school have the ability to do stock work as a pro. ARE YOU ONE OF THE FEW???

This forum has several people which can help you. Some of the best custom gunmakers are here and most will give you advise.

my 2 cents worth

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Problem today: very few 'apprentices' these days would be content with a bare living wage, and good instruction IS available elsewhere.

'Apprenticeship' and 'instant gratification' unfortunately don't go together.
Regards, Joe

Great points Joe.

There are a couple of points I would like to make regarding your above post.

1) Good instruction is available elsewhere, but apprenticing under a well known smith(who is making a good living) gives a young smith insights into how to really make a living that aren't available in school. It can also lend some weight to your name and get you in contact with good customers and other high level builders.

2) "Instant gratification" and custom-rifle-builder simply don't go together. 99% of the well known custom rifle builders out there today paid their dues through years working as either apprentices or general gunsmiths(usually both). Very few young guys want to spend the bulk of their time cleaning, repairing, and finishing guns, but usually years(or decades) of such work is what it takes before a smith and stop taking in general repair type work and make a living solely building custom rifles.

Spending three to five years as an apprentice would put most young smiths ahead of their classmates who chose to hand up a shingle immediately after graduating.

quote:

Aaron,

Where are you going to school? I will try to help you decide on what happens after you finish the school.

I finish TSJC in 1963 and spent the next 40 yrs working as a general gunsmith and in the off season making a few custom stocks.

The company where I worked hired more than 10 graduates from gunsmith schools. Not anyone had the ability to do complete stock work. If you can't make money for a company then they don't have time to train you if you are getting paid. If you want to work at a reduced wage you may find someone who will train you. I offered to help anyone working for us to learn stockmaking and checkering in their off time. Not any of these people had an interest in learning this field. All had the ability to do lathe work, but lacked the stockmaking knowledge. I made at least 10 stocks in 15 months while in school. I was the first student allowed to finish the school in less than the 2 yrs by taking 1st and 2nd yr courses my first year. Louie Mrace was my stockmaking instructor and he told me that I was the first. We had to have credits to transfer to a 4 yr college inorder to get the AAS degree. I had enough transfer credits so I only had to take the gunsmithing class. The school was on a quarter semister system. Three semisters per year and summer school. I finished in 5 quarter semisters and had several job offers. Make the most while in school.

Paul Mayer the reamer guy in Raton,NM hired me to do stock work for him when I was in school. I took reamers as pay and built up an inventory of several popular calibers. I remember making 3 stocks for him and if anyone has a stock with Paul Mayer signed inside it could be one that I made.

I was making stocks and checkering before I went to school by learning from reading the American Rifleman Mag. I went to school to study metal work. You must study all that is available out there and hope you have artistic ability for stockmaking. Remember only about 5%of the guys going to gunsmith school have the ability to do stock work as a pro. ARE YOU ONE OF THE FEW???

This forum has several people which can help you. Some of the best custom gunmakers are here and most will give you advise.

Mr. Brooks,

I am currently at CST and in the "Stocks" section of my schooling. I like to think I have the artistic ability to checker and do stockmaking. I am working on my first rifle stock at this moment and can tell where I could improve, and definently have the drive to do better. I know that with practice I can do anything well, and after many years and "learning" I have the ability to be great. Those pictures I posted on the checkering thread consisted of some of the work I did with only seven days of experience, one of those days consisted of a class and little "hands-on" stuff.

Everyone started somewhere...

quote:

One of the advantages of the original apprenticeship system was that the master got a very low-paid assistant to do all the dirty work while the assistant got a bare living wage and good instruction not available elsewhere.

Problem today: very few 'apprentices' these days would be content with a bare living wage, and good instruction IS available elsewhere.

'Apprenticeship' and 'instant gratification' unfortunately don't go together.
Regards, Joe

"No one wants to play rhythm guitar behind Jesus"

After 2 weeks straight of hand polishing most apprentices seem to move on (my observation).

Aaron,
One of the most valuable resources available is the N.R.A. summer classes offered by many of the gunsmithing schools. I had the honor and opportunity to take classes from the likes of Jerry Fisher, Don Klein, Butch Searcy, Ralph Bone, Pete Grisel, and accomplished staff T.S.J.C instructors like Ed Shulin and Leonard Bull. Years later I had the privelege of co-teaching N.R.A. summer courses with Jim Clark and Ron Powers as a full time instructor at T.S.J.C but I started out learning a great deal from the masters that taught at the N.R.A. summer classes. I'm not saying that this is a substitute for an apprenticeship but that it is an alternative. You have to prepare yourself to take advantage of the opportnities that come your way by becoming the best machinist, woodworker,etc. that you can be, because you never know where your next opportunity to learn will come from, and you have to be ready to, first recognize it, and then to take advantage of it within your goals and capabilites.
Cheers,
Gary Kimball

I went through Trinidad starting in 1969 right after high school. Trinidad taught the basics in 2 years. Glen Chapman is a friend of mine, you know the guy who makes the swing safities, and he is a really good gunsmith. I was in his shop one day and I called him a gun mechanic, you know the Mr. Good Wrench of the gun world. I hurt his feelings and he has NEVER let me forget that comment. But there is a difference between what I do and gunsmithing. I think that after you leave school you need to specialize and work for that end. Do something every day to get you closer to your goal.

Perhaps you might want to learn the machine tool trade. If you want to become a gunsmith you need to know machine tools. I was a modelmaker for 25 years. I work for an electronics company making models of new products and tooling. That where I learned the craft. In order to build a rifle, I enjoyed woodworking, I had to machine a barreled action. It's not that I didn't enjoy metalworking, but it was very close to what I did for a living, but I had to do it in order to do the woodworking which is what I enjoyed.

Now I built custom firearms for 10 years, it was nice building guns and teaching during the summers at Trinidad. But when the economy went south in 2008 the income stopped. I had to find a job. I'm now a toolmaker building tools and fixtures for rocket engines that reposition satelites. The first time in 10 years that a had a paid vacation and health insurance. I will go back to building firearms, but it will be after I retire.

I think you need to think about what's important in your life and go in that direction.

Aaron,

I hope that you didn't take what I am telling you as down playing your ability. Quite the oposite. What I am wanting to get accross is you need to study hard and you will have a job waiting for you. Go to where the money is and not out in the wild beautiful mountains.

After finishing the school I have never been caught up on work in the shop. That is why general gunsmithing will make you a good living. Be able to do what the customer requires you to make whether you like his style or just want to force your own style on him. The classic makers on this site have spent years building their customers. Prove that you can do fine work and you will have people looking for you.

I attended CST, and then apprenticed with Don Klein. I have built rifles on and off for 24 years. I am currently doing some limited work and am a Plant Manager. A "real" job has allowed me to buy every piece of equipment I want,all exactly what I want and all paid for. There are no payments on anything, when I am ready to build Rifles again I will be WAY ahead of the game. Ditto on the Machinist aspect, I am a Machinist and a Welder, both valuable skills in any facet of gunsmithing. I was, and will again be, a Metalsmith in the A.C.G.G. Here's a plug for Mark, buy his book.

I think wyoske has a point. The cost of doing business is different for a metalsmith than a stockmaker. When you consider the cost of machine tools, cutters, chambering reams and the time it takes to learn to operate the machines, buying the tools and paying cash for them is the best way to go. There is some amount of pressure on you and your family knowing that there is a good size payment do at the end of the month. I always approached the business like I could close the shop door and go fishing for awhile without loosing any sleep.

I attended CST many years ago. I was able to do good work but was slow. After graduating I moved back home and could not come up with the money to open a shop. A couple of years later I got a position as a gunsmith in a gun shop. The pay was lousy and the benefits were slim. I went back into manufacturing as a machine operator and later completed a college degree.

Only two of my classmates at CST made a name for themselves that I know of, D'arcy Echols and Reid Coffield. They were both very commited to becoming top rate workmen, though their fields of focus were different. Jack Belk was an instructor the last year I was there and I helped him design a scope mount and rings for his use, the basic design was his and I offered a small improvement. I don't know if he actually ever produced any of that design. I believe D'arcy worked for Jack for a while after Jack opened a shop in Glenwood Springs.

Aaron Little, I looked over your photo's. Nice work.

apprenticeship under a master is the best opportunity anyone can have. I have learned 2 trades in my life and am more than happy to have traded the low wages for the training, served me very, very well.

I am not a gunsmith, but what is true in one profession, art or trade, is true in any other, in my experience of the world and its ways.

Apprenticeship is the best means of learning anything, be it profession, art or trade.

After some schooling in fundamentals, one learns best under the tutorship of a master.

But few masters these days have the time, the budget or the patience.

Also, few are truly good tutors, able and interested in bringing the next generation along.

It ain't easy, though, especially given the flat out stupidity of the next generation.

If I was as dumb as some of them are when I was their age, I wouldn't have survived long enough to still be here today to tell them how damned dumb they are now.

Ah, well . . . .

Thanks for the words gentleman, keep them coming.

Les Brooks, I didnt interpret what you said as a downplay; no worries. Thanks for the advice!

An interesting thread! I've been through every one of the experiences you guys have talked about.

Wish I could have been as backed up 30 years ago as I am now. This is not an easy business to break into and there are some great talents out there that will never be recognized.

You gotta get a bit of luck. You have to be willing to put in 7 days a week and have a very understanding wife when the wolf's at the door.

I certainly give due credit to the gunsmithing schools out there, but let's be honest...there are damn few who really have "fire in the belly".

I've personally had a few "apprentices" Maybe I just don't have the patience! It "Ain't for everyone"

As an example: We (ACGG) sponsored a seemingly brilliant gunsmithing candidate and sent him to Ferlach...he lasted about a year!

In my opinion, the bottom line is completely up the the individual's willingness to make the necessary sacrifices..

Or..as I've advised potential gunmakers..."Forget it, find yourself a real job!"

There are too many points here to highlight each but I will offer my limited opinion as someone who in the recent past graduated CST and wound up opening their own shop. First and foremost, if you are not married, have no family ties, then pick a few custom gunsmiths who you like and try to apprentice with them. The pay will be lousy, the work will be aggravating, but the experience will worth much more than you are paying to go to school.

-

A couple of you forget what a "living" wage is. Minimum wage is NOT a living wage. I had the opportunity to work at a couple different shops and even got offered an apprentice position at two smaller shops. I turned down each and every one because not one of them paid $8/hr and none of them offered benefits.

-

Unfortunately when I went to CST noone went to Reno, noone talked about the ACGG. It was not until my last months that two new instructors were hired who have since turned the school around. I have had 2 opportunities to go the SCI and as of yet cannot afford to FLY to reno, get a hotel room for a weekend, and take off work for a weekend. If you have the money, go to Reno, take pictures of your work and talk to everyone. I was and am too intimidated to talk to anyone like Weibe or Echols about work.

Custom Gunmaking is a VERY hard business to break into. I wish you the BEST of luck. Say Hi to Mike and David for me.

Fal Grunt,
I think the Guild show is much better from a firearms view. SCI has some weapons, but it is about hunting.
Butch

The best thing I think I can do at this point is start talking to gunsmiths/builders. I have been taking a ton of pictures of my progress in and out of school, so that should help put together a portfolio.

I feel the same way as Nathaniel Myers in that it is a little intimidating, but at the end of the day it is worth the try. I can still remember my first boss telling me he gave me a job because of my determination and persistance, and that was before my first day.

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
A couple of you forget what a "living" wage is. Minimum wage is NOT a living wage. I had the opportunity to work at a couple different shops and even got offered an apprentice position at two smaller shops. I turned down each and every one because not one of them paid $8/hr and none of them offered benefits.

-
I was and am too intimidated to talk to anyone like Weibe or Echols about work.

Butch is correct that the ACGG is a better show as far as guns, but Echols, Miller and Simillion could only be found at the SCI how I believe.

As far as minimum wadge not being a living wage. I guess I see why so many young smiths wash out...

An apprenticeship is an extension of your schooling. Think of it as a transition between paying to go to school and being paid a living wage as gunsmith. During an apprenticeship being paid enough to rent a room and feed yourself is about all a person should expect. You are not there to make a living, you are there to learn....

By paying your dues as an apprentice you should come out ahead as you will hone you skills and gain some respectability as a smith. How much better would your resume look if it said that you graduated from a gunsmithing program and apprenticed under Echols and Dubell?

As far as being too shy to speak to Wiebe or Echols, trust me you needn't be apprehensive. I met D'arcy a few years ago at SCI and simply said "hi" as I admired his booth. Before I knew it he had invited me in and placed Allen Day's 270 in my hands. Without a doubt D'arcy the friendliest and most personable "famous" person I have met. If he couldn't help you with an apprenticeship he would probably introduce you to a few people or point you in the right direction. A true gentleman.

I also want to point out that I was still in my 20's when I met D'arcy and I did not look like big spender who was ready to commission a rifle or anything like that. D'arcy took the time to chat with me simply because he is a pleasant person(and, like every one there, a potential future customer),

And if you did get the chance to work for D'arcy you would learn a great deal about the business of custom rifle building. D'arcy really "gets it".

I have only spoke to Duane on the telephone, but he was very generous with his time and as gracious you could hope for.

If you can't afford to travel to Reno you could mail a resume and follow up with a phone call. But nothing can replace a face-to-face meeting, especially if you are able to look like someone they would want to hire. And traveling all the way to Reno shows that you are serious.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

As far as minimum wadge not being a living wage. I guess I see why so many young smiths wash out...

An apprenticeship is an extension of your schooling. Think of it as a transition between paying to go to school and being paid a living wage as gunsmith. During an apprenticeship being paid enough to rent a room and feed yourself is about all a person should expect. You are not there to make a living, you are there to learn....

Absolutely, as an apprentice you are there to learn. But there is the whole aspect of living while you work there.

Most young smiths wash out because most shops and apprenticeships do NOT pay enough to "rent a room and feed yourself".

Granted, like I said, I did not speak with the likes of Echols, Wiebe, etc. Maybe they pay enough to live on. I spoke with maybe a dozen shops? They either did not want to train "competition" or paid so little it was not livable.

If I had it all to do over again, I would have spent another year or two doing tool and die work and instead of going to CST tried for an apprenticeship with one of the big names.

Otherwise, I do agree with everything you said Jason especially about the value of working for a known smith.

I apologize upfront, I did not mean to start an argument and detract from Mr.Littles thread, however I feel as though a little different perspective was necessary.

I was once told by an outstanding stockmaker, "I am far to young to be called a Mr."...Now I understand.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
I was once told by an outstanding stockmaker I am far to young to be called a "Mr."...Now I understand.

Master Little?

Just Aaron.

Aaron
Since Grade School I have always wanted to be a rifle maker. I entered the CST program at the age of 18. About 4 Months before graduation I flew to Tucson Az to seek a position with the David Miller Co and thought I had position secured then lost the opportunity right before I was due to Graduate. I then got on a plane flew to NY to apply for a job at G&H. An opening wasn't advertised but they apparently liked what they saw and offered me a position at the very bottom, polishing and bluing. I knew I could work my way up the ladder but the starting pay was $600 per month. Even in 1978 you couldn't keep a roof over your head without 4 room mates and a night job so I declined the offer. I then called Pachmayr and was told the list a current applicants filled two legal pages and they had no openings. Later that fall I was hired by Jack Belk and helped him open a shop in western Colorado. This position lasted less than a year due to under capitalization.

While frustrated I decided to apply for an open position back at CST as they needed another Stock Making instructor during the evening classes and landed the job. At least I was actively back in trade and doing my own stock work during the day. A year later I decided to go for broke and got up enough nerve to approach Jerry Fisher to see if a position in his shop was a possibility. We finally met in his shop that May and he said in no uncertain terms that he had never and would never have an "apprentice". Six months later I moved to Kalispell to learn from this genuine force of nature. I now truly had my foot in the door and I have never looked back. I only bring up this monotonous history to show that I went looking for an advanced education in established gun companies that practiced the type of work I wanted to excel at. The beginning was always uncertain and filled with many disappointments but what endeavor isn't ? I knew I had some talent and knew what I wanted to do for a living.

I agree with Duane completely that most people "think" they want to get into this business until the actually get their hands dirty. While a background in the machine trades is very valuable not every "Great" tool room machinist is going to make a "good" general or custom gunsmith. I have hired 2 such gentleman that did not last very long. I know for damn sure that I'm a second rate machinist. At the highest levels I feel these are very distinctly different disciplines despite what other people say. I do feel that you should have a grounded education derived from a Gunsmithing school to prove to a prospective employer in this trade that you do in fact know how to use the basic tools. It shows you at least had the drive and the commitment to enter the school and learn the basics, in other words you are invested. Otherwise you are already at a disadvantage, there are exceptions to the rule but these are rare.

Lastly finding a typical Custom Gunsmith with a deep enough back log to justify hiring an employee is difficult but they do exist. The younger you are when you begin this career the greater your chances are of success as it does take an inordinate amount of time and significant financial outlay to develop your skill and product or service that you can market and sell. Like any business it needs to be just that a business. Going it on your own is possible but working for an established Custom Gunsmith or company is a far better way to approach this trade today in my opinion. I have two great craftsman that currently work for me and I am blessed to have them. One came looking for me, then the two of us found the third. In my case it has worked wonderfully but it damn sure took some time to put it all together.

Get the basic education. By the time you graduate you'll at least have a clue if you have any aptitude for this work. If you think you "got the right stuff" decided on a what area of the trade you want to practice, seek out the best in that field and knock on their doors. Remember half the battle is just showing up.

D'Arcy Echols

quote:

half the battle is just showing up.

Now there's a home run statement!

What an outstanding reply! Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to contribute to this thread.

What D'Arcy said.

I'll add that IMO many folks today simply don't know what 'a living wage' really is. When I see all the young people today saddling themselves with all these UNNECESSARY student loans, my heart sinks and I realize that we've given them unreasonable expectations of what will happen in their early adulthood.

Instant gratification isn't possible in the smithing area. Apprenticeship in most trades requires 3-5 years and the wages are normally about 2/3 of a Journeyman's pay or sometimes less. Why should smithing be any different?

I recall Lynton McKenzie's tale of his training and the poor living conditions necessary for him to be able to support himself. No car, one room in a garret (literally!), being paid by piecework and quality rather than by the hour, no benefits, etc.

Some of these aspiring 'quitter' smiths need to quit whining, put on their big-girl panties and just suck it up if they want to maximize their chances. Like the man said, half the battle is just showing up!

You beginning smiths who are posting here are several steps ahead of your peers and obviously have a better grasp of life's realities. Just keep trying to stay focused on learning to do better work in less time in several different ways, and always ALWAYS ask questions!

My assessment will seem harsh to some here, but I'm a firm believer that anyone can go to college without any student loans and without such luxuries as a car or a single's apartment. Live in the dorm, eat in the cafeteria, hitchhike, work a part-time job, etc. Same goes for the apprenticeship period, you don't actually NEED to have all the same living advantages that you'll be able to afford later in life. Get a small place with as many roommates as necessary, learn to do your own cooking and cleaning and sewing repairs, hitchhike or ride public transportation, hang out at the library instead of the sports bar, you know the drill even if you don't particularly want to march to it.

How much is the education worth to you?
Regards, Joe

AMEN!!

I had my first rifle built by Larry Cribbs. It was a Hunter benchrest rifle. Obviously not the fine crafstmanship of some of these guys rifles created here. Anyway, I wanted to build my own rifles. I had some machining background by using a lathe at a place I was employed. My first lathe was purchased and started doing repairs in my garage part time. That since has grown to a very steady clientel. I dont do the fancy stuff that most of these guys on this forum do but more the custom hunting or target rifles. Recently I had the oppurtunity to learn to mold and complete composite stocks under Wayne York (www.oregunsmithingllc.com) Now I spend many weekends at his shop making stocks for his and my customers rifles. Wayne has taught me many new things in the trade. Before I would just buy the stock of the customers choice, fit and bed it and call it good. Now I have learned to make composites start to finish.
My point is always learn anything and everything you can, no matter how pointless it may seem. I have a regular full time job that pays my wages and benefits, however when I retire at a age well before 67, I am confident that I will be able to make a living as a fulltime GS.

Aaron

The biggest problem that I have had with apprentices/helpers is that after a week or so they don't want to do the dirty work. After a couple more weeks they know more than you do.

If you do get an apprentice job, be respectful and do what you are asked to do. Ask questions why he wants things done a certain way. You are there to learn?

James

quote:

Originally posted by J Bennett:
The biggest problem that I have had with apprentices/helpers is that after a week or so they don't want to do the dirty work. After a couple more weeks they know more than you do.
James

Part of the unreasonable expectations. Every kid today thinks he's entitled, and it's a shame (old-fogey grin). My classmates at TSJC all thought they were already gunsmiths when they graduated and I was no different, just a punk kid. The major difference was that after graduation I had some early smithing mentors who taught me a lot, on a part-time basis most nights after our day jobs. When the workload got heavy enough, my main partner gradually morphed into full-time smithing and is still doing it after over 40 years with far more work than he can handle.

But if he had had to live on his smithing income during the first few years, he would have starved. His wife worked full-time and back in the '60s that was an expected thing for young folks just starting out. One car, eat Mac-N-Cheese, use grocery coupons, eat a LOTTA venison, work a second job, wear clothes until they need patching and then patch 'em to wear some more, put the baby with Grandma during the day instead of a Day Care, eat a lotta potatoes.

You do what you gotta do, with whatever resources you have to do it with. IF you want it bad enough! If the 'want to' is strong enough then the 'can do' will generally take care of itself but it won't happen overnight!
Regards, Joe

Don Klein still takes apprentices, so I would satrt by calling him.

Will write more on starting out, tooling up, stock making/metal smithing/repair, apprenticing, etc when hands working better

But if I was starting out and looking for an apprenticeship I would be calling Mr. Klien on Monday morning

Kevin,
I guess you could find a guy without elves.
Butch